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Finally read the Errata/clarification page


Sandwich

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Board control and speed win this game. Kirai works because she can get her summoned models where they need to be.

This is the sort of approach that concerns me, though. Rather than Wyrd spending its time to ensure that all factions have such homogeny that they are all fast and have areas of control, I'd rather there were more diversity in winning conditions such that the things that make the rezzers less equipped in certain areas(ie. speed, etc) were compensated for by being able to excel in different areas that also helped contribute to victory. (ie. attrition via replacement, etc)

If the only fix to the entire line of rezzers is to hand them the abilities and model-equivalents of other factions, then we may as well just have played the other factions in the first place.

I also want to say that I completely agree with a post above that IMO, the disparity between rezzers and other factions is not some large insurmountable gulf. I happen to think its much closer and, in fact, I feel like for taking only the top two masters of each faction its a toss-up between us and neverborn for best master duo because Kirai and McMourning are both excellent in their own ways.

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Tbh, I feel that raptors are worth taking in ANY crew. That feeling you get when they actually DO something makes it completely worth it. Similar to when a Watcher wounds something, or even when a Watcher flips a RJ on the damage flip ;)

@Sandwich: While I AM down in Tacoma as I write this, I'm not usually down during the daytime on Saturdays. Any afternoons/evenings on weekdays, perhaps? I'm slowly moving all my stuff down here every week, but I won't be permanently living down here until late June/July.

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Tbh, I feel that raptors are worth taking in ANY crew. That feeling you get when they actually DO something makes it completely worth it. Similar to when a Watcher wounds something, or even when a Watcher flips a RJ on the damage flip ;)

@Sandwich: While I AM down in Tacoma as I write this, I'm not usually down during the daytime on Saturdays. Any afternoons/evenings on weekdays, perhaps? I'm slowly moving all my stuff down here every week, but I won't be permanently living down here until late June/July.

I think they're pretty fun little birds.

But I love Night Terrors more.

If you give me a weekday and a time, I'll make time to be there for as long as we want to play.

I have a relatively flexible schedule so aside from Thursdays and Sundays, I'm available.

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Stepping into the fire here....

But isn't this game more designed around the faction vs faction? not master vs master? Don't we choose the faction, then go strat/schemes then go master? Maybe its not ALL (i see some of the issue, but don't think its worth all the hate rezzer's get) the lack of good devolpment as it is stubborn players playing the master they wanna play?

I mean, i get it. I got Marcus cause I liked Marcus. I can't stand raspy or Colette, and Ramos is... bleh to me. But I figure if I pick a strat that is bad for marcus, I could prolly do better as another arcanist, but I choose to stay where I'm at. Some games, I just get stomped... and I figured I'd accept it cause of that.

I've played games against Seamus with Hamelin and with the strats we had, I lost... horribly. Not cause of skill level, just cause they didn't match up so well. If we had a different set of schemes/strats... I may have stomped him, unless he then picked up McM.

Like I said, I get the want to play specific masters, but its always been my understanding that this game is designed from a "Heres 4/5 guys that each function differently to match up with X combonation of strats/schemes"

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I think I finally get it. OP is trolling.

successful-troll-is-successful.jpg?w=720

Dude, don't be an ass. Your contributions to this thread have been far closer to trolling than Sandwich's.

As for Sandwich, he plays in a small bubble with apparently a playgroup that has a very high amount of fluctuations. Malifaux rewards experience highly so he rules in his meta and considers himself very, very intelligent. Now, those are the perfect conditions to breed somewhat erratic opinions on the game as evidenced by his sometimes very acute analysis and at other times complete crock (Snowstorm being an 11-SS model so it's bound to be super good). If he could go to a couple of bigger, competitive tournaments I'm pretty sure that he would post quite a bit differently, but c'est la vie.

All of this doesn't mean that he is trolling, rather that he has an extremely, supremely high opinion of himself and a pretty limited perspective of the game. Also, for a guy who describes himself as supremely smart, he really has big, gaping holes in his communication abilities and control over how he comes across.

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I may be wrong and out of order but reading through here my thoughts are that you like to play a particular way and the ressers dont have the models to deal with that, although other factions do. You dont want to change to a different faction you just want the ressers changed so you can keep with your way of playing.

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Dude, don't be an ass. Your contributions to this thread have been far closer to trolling than Sandwich's.

As for Sandwich, he plays in a small bubble with apparently a playgroup that has a very high amount of fluctuations. Malifaux rewards experience highly so he rules in his meta and considers himself very, very intelligent. Now, those are the perfect conditions to breed somewhat erratic opinions on the game as evidenced by his sometimes very acute analysis and at other times complete crock (Snowstorm being an 11-SS model so it's bound to be super good). If he could go to a couple of bigger, competitive tournaments I'm pretty sure that he would post quite a bit differently, but c'est la vie.

All of this doesn't mean that he is trolling, rather that he has an extremely, supremely high opinion of himself and a pretty limited perspective of the game. Also, for a guy who describes himself as supremely smart, he really has big, gaping holes in his communication abilities and control over how he comes across.

Because you've hit my "I'm a self-centered douchebag" nail directly on the head, and without any desire to disprove that statement.

Aside from the Snow Storm being a crappy model, (Which I admit I've had limited play time with), when have I been full of crock?

Can I ask, and please don't take this the wrong way as it is not a negative, but this thread being timed with your recent model creation threads and your proclamations you want to work for Wyrd, reads almost like an effort to say they need another developer for Resurr's.

You perhaps?

Absolutely don't take it as a negative.

Honestly, I do not have the capacity of patience or mental fortitude required to balance an entire faction (Even with further expansions in mind) and I am far too harsh in my delivery of opinion that I would NEVER make an even remotely ideal representative of Wyrd.

Also, I believe that to truly balance the faction, existing models need to be altered in ways that will subtlely bump the overall power of the faction and that, while all of the models I've designed and posted would work excellently in the faction, they're hardly a necessity and although adding new models into the faction is one way to bring about an increase in power, I think its the wrong way to do it.

Not to mention that I've insulted many different members of Wyrd and their community in many different ways, (Except Lalo, I love that guy) so I highly doubt that they (Both employees and customers) either

A.) Care at all about me.

B.) Want to work on anything regarding their game with any intellectual intimacy with the likes of me.

That said, and the fact that Wyrd seems to be both disinterested with the imbalances that I (And a few others) percieve, tells me that even if they WERE to rebalance anything, I would have absolutely nothing to do with that process.

Added to that is my very limited desire to be a part of the process and you have a fairly definitive "Sandwich is NOT the man for the job."

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Absolutely don't take it as a negative.

Honestly, I do not have the capacity of patience or mental fortitude required to balance an entire faction (Even with further expansions in mind) and I am far too harsh in my delivery of opinion that I would NEVER make an even remotely ideal representative of Wyrd.

Also, I believe that to truly balance the faction, existing models need to be altered in ways that will subtlely bump the overall power of the faction and that, while all of the models I've designed and posted would work excellently in the faction, they're hardly a necessity and although adding new models into the faction is one way to bring about an increase in power, I think its the wrong way to do it.

Not to mention that I've insulted many different members of Wyrd and their community in many different ways, (Except Lalo, I love that guy) so I highly doubt that they (Both employees and customers) either

A.) Care at all about me.

B.) Want to work on anything regarding their game with any intellectual intimacy with the likes of me.

That said, and the fact that Wyrd seems to be both disinterested with the imbalances that I (And a few others) percieve, tells me that even if they WERE to rebalance anything, I would have absolutely nothing to do with that process.

Added to that is my very limited desire to be a part of the process and you have a fairly definitive "Sandwich is NOT the man for the job."

Ha, you beat me to the delete button as I was concerned it could be taken more personally than I had intended the statement to be. I appreciate the response as given.

I personally believe that in book 1 they were not behind the power curve in the slightest with arcanists as potentially the weakest faction. Come book 2 they did get a very powerful master which I appreciate is being taken out of this discussions for thematic/playstyle reasons.

As such though, is it not only since the release of book 3 that they have been behind the game to any significant levels? If that is the case who is to say they don't get major love this Gencon?

Edited by Chucklemonkey
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I may be wrong and out of order but reading through here my thoughts are that you like to play a particular way and the ressers dont have the models to deal with that, although other factions do. You dont want to change to a different faction you just want the ressers changed so you can keep with your way of playing.

Reading my previous comments, I can see where that perspective would come from.

But it isn't my intention, I promise.

I don't mind changing my play style, when book 2 dropped, I stopped playing Seamus as a hardcore tank and started running him as a Utility/Support. And then with the advent of the third book, I've changed up my general strategy again to be far less reliant on summoning / supporting Belles and far more focal on mobility and Wp disruption.

All three styles mentioned are drastically different.

The game changes, that I cannot and will not stop or dispute, because it is what keeps the game fresh and exciting.

What I am complaining about is the disparity between my beloved faction (Barring Kirai) and other factions.

Currently, you really could argue that all the factions are on par in power level BECAUSE of Kirai.

Meaning if I, and all of my ressurectionist friends switched from our Seamus, McMournings, or Nicodems and played exclusively Kirai, we'd be on even ground with other factions.

But that isn't fun, and the faction isn't called "PLAY KIRAI."

In no other instance is a faction made exclusively as powerful as all other factions by one master.

Not guild, not Arcanist, not Neverborn, not Outcast.

Now, this is just my perception, based upon my interactions with this game.

But the Resurrectionists have the least effective models for the most different reasons.

Compare the 4 Pt Crooligan to the 4 Pt Freikorpsman, the 5 Pt Dead Doxy to the 5 Pt Stitched Together, the 7 Pt Rafkin to the 7 Pt Witchling Handler.

None of the Resurrectionist models are NEARLY as effective as their cost-equivalents.

Ha, you beat me to the delete button as I was concerned it could be taken more personally than I had intended the statement to be. I appreciate the response as given.

I personally believe that in book 1 they were not behind the power curve in the slightest with arcanists as potentially the weakest faction. Come book 2 they did get a very powerful master which I appreciate is being taken out of this discussions for thematic/playstyle reasons.

As such though, is it not only since the release of book 3 that they have been behind the game to any significant levels? If that is the case who is to say they don't get major love this Gencon?

Book 1 was fairly balanced, to an extent.

There was still the fact that at the time, there were certain master that would HARD counter the Ressers (Sonnia, Leveticus, Lilith, at one point lol)

But it was easily ignorable because of the dynamic Strategy / Scheme mechanic of the game.

When Book 2 rolled out and the only models we got that were't designed for Kirai were

Molly Squidpiddge: Terrible for that book, just go back and read the countless threads of people trying to find a place for her.

Guild Autopsies: I don't know what I'm supposed to say.

Night Terrors: Our shining golden beautiful gems. (Soon to be given to LCB for cheap and with way better mobility.)

Necrotic Machine: Er.

Dead Rider: Worked pretty OK for a 10 Pt model but we all knew he was really designed with the "4 Horsemen" in mind. (Turns out there's 5!)

Rogue Necromancy: A model that took more counters to summon than it would drop, had very low survivability and moderate mobility and offense. Was really, really cool the first couple of times before people learned how hard Slow would shut it down.

And in the same book they introduced, for the neverborn, the Black Blood Shaman, the Stitched Together, Coppelius, the Lelu & Lilitu Twins and the Insideous Madness.

Each and every one of those models work INSANELY well with ALL the neverborn masters (Well not the BBS) and were VERY cost effecient.

Which I did find annoying, but I was frankly too busy blaring all over the place how broken and evil Hamelin was to come whining about it at that point.

When the third book launched, my gaming group had already quit (From Hamelin, you've heard all about it already.) and I frankly picked up the book to see what Seamus had.

- - -

Then I came to realize that A.Seamus' SOLE gimmick was augmenting his Anathema ability.

An Ability that two other NEVERBORN Avatars also had.

Meaning that just by existing, A.LCB and A.Pandora can pretty well negate a big draw of the Avatar of Dread.

Also why doesn't A.Seamus, a Terrifying melee beatstick, NOT have paired fists?

He has two hands

It says Bludgeoning Fists

The-

I-

It's just -

:/

Edited by Sandwich
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Then I came to realize that A.Seamus' SOLE gimmick was augmenting his Anathema ability.

An Ability that two other NEVERBORN Avatars also had.

Meaning that just by existing, A.LCB and A.Pandora can pretty well negate a big draw of the Avatar of Dread.

I don't see how Pandora having Anathema takes away from Seamus' draw. I mean, she becomes Immobile and has a 3" melee range. More than anything, Pandora having Anathema protects her from other people's Anathema. Seamus can still basically Anathema two fisted beat down Pandora's crew and complete his objectives even if Pandora goes Avatar.

As for the Dreamer...well...It's more or less the same thing. Only the Dreamer's crew is normally immune to terror, so Anathema can send Coppelius or Alps scurrying away in fear.

Seamus is still fast, has Wicked, regen 2 and can still self heal from spells or other effects that go on during the game. As far as I can tell, your argument is that AK-47s make M-16s less appealing because they both fire bullets.

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What is interesting is your comparison of book 2 units with the Neverborn. Although excluding the BBS all of them were meant to be compatible with The Dreamer as well as the existing masters versus Kirai having almost nothing shared with other Ressers.

All of these models are multi-function models, which I think maybe the nail you're trying to hit here: They all bring strong synergies and can fulfil a few roles at once and are compatible with every Neverborn Master to some extent (BBS and Pandora is the only iffy match up, and thats only if you exclude taking Terror Tots).

If Ressers were indeed in need of being rebalanced (I haven't played against them enough to form an expert opinion), it seems the focus should be on bringing more synergies and utility to the existing models. That said I've only really played against Ressers a few times and all I really saw was just different flavours of zombie, but from reading PullMyFinger it seems everyone else gets more interesting choices for covering certain support fields (Tuco, Guild Lawyer, Insidious Madness and Waldgeist etc).

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And Raptor with a Lucius / Sonia crew as Objective Grabbers?

Yeah they're pretty good.

...

Raptors with a guild crew CAN work wonders because they're pack travelling models with a high Wk and Flight.

...

While there's a plethora of additional methods the Guild has to deal with Objectives, the Austringer / Raptor pair works pretty good too.

I don't mean to derail the topic here, but as objective grabbers, Malifaux Raptors are god-awful. For the Guild they're 3SS each (out-of-faction), and you need three of them together to make them non-insignificant. That's 9SS for three models, yet they'll become insignificant the moment one dies.

Raptors are great in certain roles, but not as objective grabbers, and not currently in Guild.

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I can appreciate many of your points sandwich and agree with most of your last post, but:

Dead Rider: Worked pretty OK for a 10 Pt model

"pretty OK"? He is FANTASTIC!

There are issues, no doubt, but I feel like you want to spin everything in a negative light to try to strengthen your point and so underselling something as wonderful as the Dead Rider undermines your point, IMO.

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While i can understand some of your points there are certain aspects/models the other factions would kill to get there hands on. If i look on my local meta there are currently two people actively playing Rezzers a lot, including me and we stand our ground pretty well against their other factions.

I started this game playing Arcanists and was constantly loosing. When i switched to Rezzers i nearly scored first place in our first Tournament. That said i could merely be a playstyle issue and Rezzers are better suited for me but when i look at some of our stuff it screams power.

Let's take a look at McMourning. A meele monster with a 6SS cache he doesn't even need and the ability to craft more SS in the form of sexy summons. If he gets into trouble? No problem, just eat their face and heal up to full health.

Or the Dead Rider Grave Spirit combo. The only time i lost thos two fast was against the Vics.

And while i have to agree with you on the Night Terrors/Dreamer collaboration. They are still the best objective grabbers in the game and every rezzer master can take them. We are playing Zombies and Frankensteins monsters that can take a beating and get resummoned after they die AND get the best mobility models aswell? Yeah why not

That being said, it may sound a bit biased but from my experience Ressers are a strong faction not lacking anything:)

Edited by Orboros
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In any game system there are going to be certain models/armies/combos that on paper are more powerful than other models/armies/combos. But while that may give your opponent an edge it doesn't make him unbeatable if you are the better player, so rather than complaining about it, you should take it as a challenge to lift your game.

I really don't see the value in having everything on a level playing field. Variety is what makes miniature games interesting and sometimes you feel the Lady's push and you blow away your opponent's master with a red joker.

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I know that I'm a new player and all, but this whole Resser hate thing really doesn't make much sense to me. Yeah our Night Terrors can be taken by Dreamer, but hey we can still use them. Yeah Levi can take the Dead Rider, but we still can use it. We get an 8wd, hard to wound, luring monster of a Belle for only 4 points (granted I just love those girls). Yeah I'll agree that Seamus should have a couple more SS in his cache, but oh well he still has one of the best Avatars out there to make up for it. And to top off everything else...out of the 9 finalist of this years US Masters, 3 of them were Ressers, and the final table wasn't Neverborn but Outcast. In fact Neverborn didn't even make it to the finals at all. So if you're going to hate on a faction at least go for the one that has won the major tournaments as of late. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk here or anything, but I'm of the belief that if you're not breaking down laughing at least 3 times per turn, you're taking the game too serious. I mean come on. We get to play one of the most entertaining and fun mini based games out there, so why complain?

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IAnd to top off everything else...out of the 9 finalist of this years US Masters, 3 of them were Ressers, and the final table wasn't Neverborn but Outcast.

Well... Assuming you are using Adepticon as some basis for anything, I think that it should be clearer what happened there.

Out of the two days of qualifying tournaments, the faction representation was:

10 Rezzer

5 Guild

8 Outcast

8 Arcanist

6 Neverborn

Three rezzers made it to the finals day, but one of them was via a series of declines. (But to be fair, another rezzer DID qualify that also declined)

And so, with at least one representative from each faction in the finals except neverborn interestingly enough, how did the rezzers fare?

Out of the 8 places, rezzers took, 5th, 6th and 8th place.

[TABLE=class: cms_table]

[TR]

[TD]Andrew Weakland[/TD]

[TD]Outcast[/TD]

[TD]19[/TD]

[TD]9[/TD]

[TD]13[/TD]

[TD]Master of Malifaux[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Ryan Hess[/TD]

[TD]Outcast[/TD]

[TD]12[/TD]

[TD]6[/TD]

[TD]-1[/TD]

[TD]Masters Runner-up[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Rob Kopp[/TD]

[TD]Guild[/TD]

[TD]12[/TD]

[TD]3[/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Jonathen Fletcher[/TD]

[TD]Arcanist[/TD]

[TD]10[/TD]

[TD]3[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Jason Miller[/TD]

[TD]Resurrectionist[/TD]

[TD]5[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]-1[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Jim Wrench[/TD]

[TD]Resurrectionist[/TD]

[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]-2[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Shawn Allen[/TD]

[TD]Arcanist[/TD]

[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]-4[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Joe Girard[/TD]

[TD]Resurrectionist[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]-6[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Is it statistically relevant? Nope... But neither is trying to use Adepticon as an example of the other direction.

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Not denying that fact, just making a statement that you really can't count them out. If they were as bad as everyone makes them out to be...they never would have even made it into the finals in the first place. I wasn't really trying to make any final statements when I said that. Just that every faction has a chance. I mean I remember one time I played a 40ss game and just for the fun of it ran Seamus, Molly, Grave Spirit, Sybelle, and 5 Belles. It wasn't an amazing list, but it was a ton of fun. That's what the game is all about. If what you're looking for is just a super competitive then sure, go look at Hamlin. But if you're here for the laughs and fun, then why care if someone else gets some of our cool toys? Kick back, laugh a bit, and have some fun with your mates. That's what this game is all about. Or at least that is my humble opinion.

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True, but the thing we don't know is how many of those rezzers in the finals were running only Kirai. And Sandwich's point, one which I agree with on some level, is that Kirai is only one of four Masters...having 1/4th of a faction is annoying. Can rezzers compete? Yes. But it's so much more difficult with 3/4th of the faction.

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I see some good points made. I brought up this topic at with my local group and they too laughed at the idea of Resurrectionist being the weakest faction, claiming the they some of the best master (Seamus was used as an example) and using the old Malifaux stand-by of "you have Kirai" and as seen in the thread, the fact that people who play resurrectionist don't really know how to play them. But as a responsed, I asked who they thought was the weakest faction and they claimed it was based on who was playing who. In ever game system I have ever played, there is always a weakest faction, it just happens. I wonder, if Resurrectionist are not the weakest faction, who is? I don't know about Resurrectionist players, but how many are tired of hearing the claim "you have Kirai!". To my knowledge, resurrectionist are the only faction that suffers from a comeback like that. No one post up, "Guild are weak!" and then get a reply post "But you have Lady Justice!" I love playing the Resurrectionist, don't get me wrong, none of the other factions come close in fluff and flavor. We just suffer from lack of punch, lack of speed, and the fact that hard to wound is not a blessing. I will continue to play them and love them, like my sig says "Resurrectionist for unlife!"

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