Models out of play modifying Talents/ Spells of models in play

[Omenbringer]

Thought of a question in another thread here in regards to models that are completely out of play (never having been hired into the crew or summoned into play by a hired model that is able to summon them without their special rule, i.e. Molly Squidpidge with a Dead Doxy) modifying Talents/ Spells of models that are in play.

Models like the Dead Doxy, Wicked Dolls, and Rogue Necromancy all have abilities that alter the Summoning Rules of other models spells (Seamus, Zoraida, McMourning & Nicodem).

Though I am assuming the intent was to allow the out of play modification, I can see arguments the other way as well.

So the simple question is:

Does a model that modifies another models rules, need to have either been hired into the crew first or have been summoned into the crew by a model that is able to summon it without the special modification (i.e. Molly summoning a Dead Doxy so Seamus can have access to the special rule) in order to modify rules, or is it allowed to do it from completely out of play (i.e. never hired or summoned at all)?

[Ausplosions]

Blergh..

Was a bad enough question in one thread.

So, your argument is that you need to have these models on the board in order to summon them. So:

RM is hired > RM is on the board > You can summon another RM > It is Rare 1 > You cannont summon another.

The ONLY way you can summon a RM is if you DONT HAVE an RM. And if you don't have one/it dies, then you can't summon one.

This does not work.

It is absolutely, 100% clear that you do NOT need to have hired them first.

[SpiralngCadavr]

It is absolutely, 100% clear that you do NOT need to have hired them first.

RAW, it's not entirely clear. RAI, I agree, it's obviously this, and regardless of RAW, only the biggest rules lawyer would ever challenge that, and probably only to stall for time or something equally poor-spirited.

[Omenbringer]

Since you are misunderstanding the question and responded in both threads let me copy the response from the other one here

You hire a Rouge Necromancy in to the crew which would allow the modification of the Summoning spells of Nicodem or McMourning. During the game it dies which would allow you the opportunity to summon another one in game. Because it was hired initially and modified the relevant spells, Nicodem or McMourning would now be able to use the modified spell to summon another one.

This is a lot different than never having had the Rogue Necromancy in the crew at all but allowing it to modify their spells and allowing them to summon them.

[Ausplosions]

No, it's no different to any ability changing hiring restrictions. Otherwise you couldn't hire Mctavish in a Gremlin crew until it was hired in a Gremlin crew, as it's ability to be hired in a gremlin crew is printed on it's card.

---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ----------

How about we just stop talking about this here in the rules discussion, because there is no reason to discuss this rule.

[Omenbringer]

Actually the Malifaux Rules Discussion sub-forum is exactly where this should be talked about and not in another thread buried in a faction specific sub-forum that the Rules Marshals may or may not see.

So another repost from the other thread

This is a bad example since McTavish (and several other models with similar abilities) modify the hiring rules (which occur prior to the game) and not Summoning actions that are utilized during play.

Once again I assume that it was intended to function this way but can see arguments the other way as well. Clarification is always a good thing.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Ausplosions]

You must be a lawyer.

You are complicating something that is self-evident to everyone.

So you are saying that the summoning rules are changed in-game by hiring the RM?

But if that model is killed, it's card is no longer 'hired' or 'in play'. So any changes it makes to the game end. So it's changes to summoning no longer effect the game. So it can't be summoned. Ever.

We can do this dance all day mate, but there is no point. You are trying to find something where there is nothing.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Is this intellectual curiosity, or are you actually challenging this?

I think there's no question what the intent is.

Another way "a model's rules can't work until it's in the game" would mess with rules-- it would mean that Nicodem would be able to summon a RN at a discount, the first time, since it would cost fewer corpse to summon until the rule kicked in.

[Ausplosions]

Another way "a model's rules can't work until it's in the game" would mess with rules-- it would mean that Nicodem would be able

to summon a RN at a discount, the first time, since it would cost fewer corpse to summon until the rule kicked in.

As a Nicodem player, sweet. We are the only ones who don't actually ever have to pay for the RM when hiring.

WOOOOOO!!!!!!

No, just no.

[Omenbringer]

Is this intellectual curiosity, or are you actually challenging this?

I think there's no question what the intent is.

Another way "a model's rules can't work until it's in the game" would mess with rules-- it would mean that Nicodem would be able to summon a RN at a discount, the first time, since it would cost fewer corpse to summon until the rule kicked in.

Prevention and clarification is the goal (So intellectual Curiousity).

As I have said several times now, I know what the intent was (probably more so than most on the board) but the wording could be argued (as you point out). With V2 cards for Rising Powers probably becoming available some time in the future it is good to clarify all RAW to reflect RAI before they go to print.

[Ausplosions]

I guess it could say ('Instead of hiring, this model may be summoned by...blah blah blah)

But if I'm playing against someone who would argue this point then I'd just give them the win and go do something that doesn't make me want to poke their eyes out.

[Omenbringer]

I guess it could say ('Instead of hiring, this model may be summoned by...blah blah blah)

Clarifying/ correcting rules is a natural part of any game (and a simple addition like that goes a long way toward preventing arguments in casual play or competitive events).

But if I'm playing against someone who would argue this point then I'd just give them the win and go do something that doesn't make me want to poke their eyes out.

Thats how I feel when playing against the Dreamer pre errata or Hamelin? Kidding of course but clarity is something that prevents this sort of thing.

Keep in mind I am pretty sure what the intent is (probably more so than most) but have seen more obvious things argued over RAW vs RAI (the interaction of Onslaught and Squeel! being a pretty big one).