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If you Lilitu then Lelu dies real easily. Kill Lelu and Lilitu is only going to lose 1 wd a turn because she will keep healing herself for 2. Just an observation.

Other than, as I've noticed in my own play experience, Lelu's tendency to want to be in melee where things are likely to hurt him, how is this any different than Lelu having Regeneration 2? He loses three wounds at the end of the turn and gets two back at the start of his next activation. It leaves a potential opening for things to kill him before he heals the damage, but then again, he has more wounds than Lilitu to begin with, and you can have him activate immediately if you win initiative.

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he is entertaining tho ill give him that

hope this wasnt taken the wrong way, i sincerely mean it! when i first joined the forum i thought calmdown was just the resident troll, but i have come to realise that he actually knows what he is talking about, and he is entitled to his somewhat abrasive opinion as there is alot of substance and experience behind he says. so chooses to say things in an abrupt manner... at first i found that annoying, but now i find quite entertaining. actually quite enjoy his posts and how he argues this or that that i didnt think of myself.

now back to the topic!

my gf has the vomit worm model for her raspy crew, i never would have considered using it with the dreamer myself. since i have access to the model i will definitely be trying it out at least. though i still think 3 daydreams is the way to go.

Edited by letsallchant
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Leluitu would be fine if they just lost Nightmare...

I've had very little trouble one-shotting Lelu. Even if last time I did it it was a mistake.

(Charge with Witchling on 1 wound. Forget Black Blood. Cause 6 damage. Black blood splash. Explode. Damn, I needed to kill him with a melee strike for Grudge. Had been planning on following up and finishing him off with my Exorcist.)

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Please Wyrd no!

I think the current information that exists on how Hamelin plays and the problems that exist with him is not even in the same realm as the information that existed on LCB. There was clear and prevalent information that existed on problems with the Dreamer. I would argue that with Hamelin, it is unclear and prevalent. Let's get clarity to the problem before we take in the scalpel again.

Too much errata is a bad thing.

+0.9 :)

I agree wholeheartedly that if Hamelin is errata'd based purely on people's "OMFG HAMELIN IZ SO BROKEN!" (mostly from people who have only "heard" he's broken) then it will be a very bad thing. There are a few slight changes you could make to rebalance him which were discussed a while ago, but even then no-one was arguing he needed a complete overhaul (his avatar does though - just wait until that hits the table on a widespread basis lol).

If I'm honest, if Wyrd really are reworking Hamelin I'd love to be involved in the testing etc - just to give a viewpoint from an in-depth Hamelin player (who no longer plays Hamelin so won't try to keep him unbalanced!)

---------- Post added at 11:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 AM ----------

when i first joined the forum i thought calmdown was just the resident troll, but i have come to realise that he actually knows what he is talking about, and he is entitled to his somewhat abrasive opinion as there is alot of substance and experience behind he says. so chooses to say things in an abrupt manner... at first i found that annoying, but now i find quite entertaining. actually quite enjoy his posts and how he argues this or that that i didnt think of myself.

Have to agree - I had a VERY different opinion of Ian until I met him, how he comes across on here is nothing like his real personality. He's very passionate about Malifaux and very, very, very good at playing the game and working out the details of rule interactions etc ([joke]second only to me in fact![/joke]) - the trouble is it comes across wrong on here if you don't know him. And, I hate to say it, but he's usually (if not always) right about stuff.

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Just thought I'd stop by this post for a second and ask the question I've been wanting to know for awhile and has only been exacerbated by the dreamer errata... When is Pandora going to get an errata? The Doppleganger+Pandora+2sorrow combo allowing for a turn 2 annihilation of your crew from 12" away is IMHO a big NPE as well as "BROKEN" and this has been available since book 1 before LCB existed. In addition, why is it that LCB's movement abilities were such a large problem and Kiriai's is not? Not complaining I'm just trying to ascertain the difference and ultimately the reasoning behind the speedy dreamer errata and no Pandora errata or Kirai for that matter.

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Just thought I'd stop by this post for a second and ask the question I've been wanting to know for awhile and has only been exacerbated by the dreamer errata... When is Pandora going to get an errata? The Doppleganger+Pandora+2sorrow combo allowing for a turn 2 annihilation of your crew from 12" away is IMHO a big NPE as well as "BROKEN" and this has been available since book 1 before LCB existed. In addition, why is it that LCB's movement abilities were such a large problem and Kiriai's is not? Not complaining I'm just trying to ascertain the difference and ultimately the reasoning behind the speedy dreamer errata and no Pandora errata or Kirai for that matter.

First: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?30064-Errata-Request-Pandora

Second: The problem with the Dreamer was less about the speed (I would argue) and more about the ability to get in and out of combat without fear of reprisal or much of a chance to do anything about it.

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I wish I had come across a marshal or two posting on that thread about the legitimacy of that combination, yet I saw none sadly, as for the movement, isn't Kirai able to move in and out of combat being a spirit and using her push so not much chance of reprisal either?

Not even close. first, she doesn't have the ability to slice you to ribbons the way LCB does and second, LCB is buried....off the board....totally untouchable - Kirai is at least still on the board.

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Not even close he says... Well she usually has 5 seishin attached to her which can mitigate any and all attacks and effects and she has something called a shikome; you may or may not be familar with, that will also slice whatever it targets to ribbons melee expert, fast if in range amounting to 4 attacks with plus to the flips which if you kill just becomes another seishin. More importantly my comparison to Kirai was not for her OP'dness of raw attack power to LCB's but her movement shennanigans, the ability to push up to 12" or 18" I forget as a 0 action. In addition, before the replies come about how fast the dreamer WAS I'm talking about how fast kirai IS STILL in addition to her mitigation tactics, I'm most curious as to how wyrd is going balance the rest of the power masters now that LCB has been errated: saying that Pandora, Kirai or Hamelin don't need their adjustments either is just ignorance.

Edited by mcmourning san
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I may not be the brightest star in the sky, but I've been around long enough to have at least a working knowledge of most things...so you can save your sarcasm. I was responding to your above post where you mentioned that Kirai can move in and out of combat. You didn't mention the Shikome and I can't read your mind.

But still, it doesn't compare. LCB can turn 1, kill just about any model he wants then vanish from the board before there is any chance of reprisal. Yes the Shikome with Kirai combined with her movement tricks is brutal but it still can't do what LCB can do. That Shikome could very well be dead before it gets to its target.

Also, no one said that the other masters you mentioned didn't have issues so spouting off about ignorance only makes you appear ignorant. You asked why the Dreamer was done first. Wyrd has already mentioned that they are examining other models. When they're done, we'll all know.

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I just want to point out that the Dreamer/LCB was Errated because he wasn't working, mechanically, like Wyrd wanted him to. Pandora has been out since the beginning (book one model). I'm not saying that things don't need fixed, but that lies in the minions, NOT the masters. The request for the Dreamer errata has been asked for since book 2 came out.

Just saying.

EDIT: Sorry if that was mean... I just don't understand the crazy reactions to everyone wanting masters errata-ed. I have heard complaints about the dreamer since he came out and all of them where about functions with him. Then Wyrd stated it was a functioning problem. I don't understand why they would now go back and change book one masters. If there was a problem with them, then why weren't they fixed earlier?

Edited by RebeccaJo
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I don’t know or care if you’re the brightest star in the sky personally and secondly your initial response was a little rash so I countered with a rash response; I’m not the one to be insulted by some anonymous perpetrator via the nameless and faceless web, save it for another time

Now that that’s out of the way let me say this, I agree with you, LCB sniping WAS a problem and I am GLAD they fixed it! I actually like the way he plays now less of a NPE for my opponent and I. My biggest concern with Kirai is that she will almost always out activate an opponent if she has 5 seishin (which she normally does) and then push about half the board summon something and eat face typically with no reprisal as she spent the first 5 activations defense stance seishin to out activate you. That being said I don’t know if she needs an errata she may well be balanced and working as intended. I could be wrong

In addition, I wasn’t spouting off about ignorance, I made a single comment about how saying other masters do not need an errata is ignorant, which clearly was not you because you didn’t say that, it was a blanket statement, please try not to take offense to it if it didn’t pertain to you. What should be mentioned though is that ALL the power masters should be overhauled as LCB was with the same intention as overhauling LCB, that If person A plays master X against person B with master Y neither feel that they are outclassed because of a power gap. I appreciate the fact that the Wyrd team has taken consideration into their errata with the goal to balance the game for everyone I just feel that if one power master gets the stick they all get the stick.

@Rebecca yes I agree that not all masters need an errata and that sometimes it’s the minions that cause the abuse I.E Alps, but if that is the case I hope the Wyrd team has taken into consideration the brokenness of the Doppleganger+Pandora shenanigans.

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Kirai wasn't changed because the factions are balanced against each other and Kirai is the only really competetive Ressurectionist master. Atleast, according to most of the people who post here. Nurfing LCB doesn't change the neverborn's standing all that much when compared to the other factions.

My proof is as follows. Lilith is widely considered the "worst" neverborn master. At one time she was considered one of the best masters in the game. I feel confident that many players from two factions, if not more, would trade their worst master for Lilith if they could.

Edited by micahwc
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@Rebecca yes I agree that not all masters need an errata and that sometimes it’s the minions that cause the abuse I.E Alps, but if that is the case I hope the Wyrd team has taken into consideration the brokenness of the Doppleganger+Pandora shenanigans.

If the Doppleganger and Pandora are broken, they have been for years now. Yes, their shenanigans can be brutal, but I'm almost positive everyone has figured out a feasible way to handle them with their own respective master.

If you really think they are that broken, don't bring that onto a Dreamer thread.. that just derails it and starts fights... there is a Pandora errata request thread that was created to discuss Pandora exclusively.

---------- Post added at 06:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 PM ----------

So had anyone used the dreamer since the errata? If so would you like to share your experiences?

I might be trying him out again this weekend against either McMourning or Nicodem (whichever Jeremy decides to play first). I'll be sure to post what I find/think afterwards.

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I appreciate the fact that the Wyrd team has taken consideration into their errata with the goal to balance the game for everyone I just feel that if one power master gets the stick they all get the stick.

Wyrd doesn't introduce errata lightly. Every change they make comes on the heels of careful consideration, lengthy discussion, and in-depth examination of play. The Dreamer errata was a LONG time coming, and now they've moved on to the next thing (ie. Hamelin). I'm sure Wyrd intends to eyeball all of the "problem" masters, a list which likely includes Collette and Kirai, and maybe even a few undercosted/overpowered minions. It'll be a lengthy process, though. They're not going to introduce a slew of changes all at once and throw the game into a tail spin.

It's also quite clear that Wyrd rarely discusses their process. They almost never respond directly to players debating balance. Sketch admitting that Hamelin is "on the table" is the first instance of a Wyrd employee openly admitting that a model is being reexamined for the purposes of balance, at least in my memory. It's exceedingly rare that we get a peek behind the curtain.

Is Kirai powerful? Yes. Is Collette powerful? Absolutely? Do Pandora and Hamelin represent a negative play experience? According to some. If I know it and you know it, you can bet Wyrd knows it.

Be patient.

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My proof is as follows. Lilith is widely considered the "worst" neverborn master. At one time she was considered one of the best masters in the game. I feel confident that many players from two factions, if not more, would trade their worst master for Lilith if they could.

Lilith, as worst Neverborn master, is up there with the non-book 2 best masters of other factions. She's better than McMourning for Rezzers, she's better than Ramos and Rasputina, equal-ish to aRamos, similar to Marcus, and better than every Guild master other than aSonnia who she's about equal to. She's better than Viks, and similar-ish to Ophelia.

Top and bottom; Neverborn's worst master is, at worst equal to the best masters of other factions. And in actual fact, she's really good against Kirai and Collette, so really the only master she fears is Hamelin and other Neverborn. No masters in other factions can say the same.

Actually, now I've written this, I'd argue that she's actually on par with Zoraida; Zoraida has some better matchups but also some worse ones, so overall they're maybe similar. In any case, just more fuel to the Neverborn fire when you think about it :)

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Top and bottom; Neverborn's worst master is, at worst equal to the best masters of other factions.

I like to razz CD as much as anyone else; but not this time. I may not agree with his exact assessment of where all the masters he mentioned fall compared to Lilith, but I don't think anyone could argue with the sentence I quoted.

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