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Malifaux Masters: A Tier List


Calmdown

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Really I think the most relevant attempt at using quantization in tier list form to determine a general overview of player feedback and attitude is less "where does a master appear in the power specrum" but rather where does a master appear on the satisfaction table (and no that doesn't tie into "your mum's face" jibe). If we are to sell the game and make newcomers feel like they can chose Nicodem or Molly (both I am strongly considering) and can still win, but the general consensus may be that you will have to stick at it much longer, same way as fielding a theme list, than Dreamer who can give you more bang for your buck.

I want all the weak masters, not because they're weak but becasue I enjoy them and the satisfaction of saying "you know what **** general consenus this is my game". Leave it to the playtesting forums for people to break things and fix them.

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A tier discussion outside of context or a clearly defined meta is dangerous. The vp nature of malifaux also limits the usefulness of such discussions. If were talking tournament meta that can be dicated wildly by player base preferences and what level of player has taken which master and the level of familiarity with that master. I could give johny a person off the street hamlin and throw him in a tourny how well could he reasonable do, give the same player nicodem I think the results would be identical. Give two equally skilled polayers those masters will have a greater disparity because hamlin's rules interactions are more solitare than malifaux. Give two equally skilled players one seamus the other viktorias it will come down to cards and scheme selection. Beyond broken soliatare style mechanics the differences between the tiers are so granular its hard to accurately rank them. Spiku may have the most accurate ranking to date becuase of this.

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So, taking my own stance on this list out of the equation... personal bias and all ;), is this list just the master being taken into account, or their crew? I really do believe that would change the outcome of someone's opinion of a master. It would also work to level some others. The guild, for instance, shares a good deal of units. Marcus and Levi borrowing some of the other factions key pieces. The neverborn's "better" pieces such as the twins and stitched find themselves in a lot of lists led by any of the masters.

Also, i feel like the henchmen should be taken off this list. Thier role in a crew completely changes both their own standing, and in some cases even the master they are with. Luci for instance, you put him at the bottom, but his synergy with guardsmen is great, plus multiple 18" strikes ignoring cover and LoS is not something to scoff at. Also, many people feel like Collodi bumps Zoriada's already considerable power level up even higher. Von Schill pretty much handles every single game he is hired into.

I think the only way i could honestly accept henchman in your list is if they are being weighed only by their ability to lead a crew. and even then, i don't know if i agree with their spread.

As for masters, so many share common pieces, while others cannot fuction properly without a vrey strict pool of units, so i think the only way to honestly compare them is master only... but then you have quite a different spread than the one you're showing on your list.

Just my 2 cents

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Jew: For henchmen to be listed, it is clearly as if they were themselves leading the crew, but it's hard to know where things are placed without context. Equally, looking at masters in isolation of models they can take doesn't make much sense, because the crews and choices, and what masters can bring to them, is often a factor. Som'er can do very little without his crew, Justice wills till hit things hard ;3

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Jew: For henchmen to be listed, it is clearly as if they were themselves leading the crew, but it's hard to know where things are placed without context. Equally, looking at masters in isolation of models they can take doesn't make much sense, because the crews and choices, and what masters can bring to them, is often a factor. Som'er can do very little without his crew, Justice wills till hit things hard ;3

I do not disagree with you at all. That would be plain ignorant. lol. but i guess where i am still not on board with the list is, does this imply where the master ranks under the assumption that they have the best crew possible for a specific set of strategies and schemes? and are they the same strategies and schemes across the board?

I only raise this question because we need some kind of constant in order to even attempt a list like this.

am i making sense, or coming off as a crazy troll? I really hope i'm making sense. lol

EDIT: i also know that you have similar questions and didn't have a hand in making this list. My questions weren't directed at you specifically... just incase you felt like i was putting you on the spot. ;)

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Well, I think calmdown does a decent job with what's available.

However, I think we should be very careful. Meta is more solid the more major tourneys that occur and we're not really there yet. We also have to contend with nonstandard balancing concepts what with the pre game crew picking and all that. It's difficult to draw much from matching masters linearly against each other as to their general advantages when I get the impression things are at least supposed to be more like "pick-->counterpick" etc.

Regards,

TV

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I fail to understand why you need context on an objective discussion.

An objective discussion assumes:

equal player skill

equal luck

no meta

All of these things are of course impossible to achieve, but ALL discussion would be pointless having unless you fix some variables as you would never be able to draw any conclusion.

So take the context as this, if you must: all factors other than the master and models are in equilibrium and we're talking about masters in relative power level to eachother. Clearly in my list, Tier 3 is the baseline due to its size; those below Tier 3 are beneath the expected power curve, and those above Tier 3 are above the curve.

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What makes Ophelia level with Som'er in your context? I can certainly see her standing at 25ss, but up and above how does she keep in with the rest in her bracket; the front loaded damage and speed? Or just that she doesn't fall low enough drop into the tier below?

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Another +1 to Spiku's list

Calmdowns list really does seem to provide as good a guideline as any, if not better, but it should only be used as that and not let it put anyone off certain masters (this has nothing to do with me recently purchasing Nicodem...). As far as lists and criteria goes, Calmdown has specified all that is neccesary really, any great attempt to make it more accurate would be huge use of time and effort and would provide nothing terribly useful, specially if wyrd go and alter some of the stats.

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They may not want it, but I have to throw my hat in with Luci and Nilus. I agree that there are just too many variables to create an accurate tier system. The info on masters is based strongly on opinion and the performance of the master by individuals. I don't think you can say 'Equal skill / equal luck / equal meta' because it just doesn't exist....it's fiction.

No personal attack or attempt to inflame, just my opinion.

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Tier 1: The Dreamer, Kirai, Hamelin

Tier 2: Pandora, Lilith, Collette, Sonnia, Collodi, Perdita, Ophelia

Tier 3: Zoraida, Viktorias, Leveticus, Lady Justice, Hoffman, McMourning, Von Schill, Kaeris

Tier 4: Rasputina, Ramos (+1 if you can manifest) , Nicodem, aSeamus(+1 or 2 if against crew that need to make moral checks),

Tier 5: Nicodem, Molly (because of low minion selection), Lucius

Unlisted : Somer

I left some unlisted because they are not played in my area that often, Somer is a model I had but never really bought his full list and gave his model away. I tried him 2-3 times but never thought of him as really good. but it could be because of full list. Marcus is kinda the same, I see some people list as T2, but I see him as T5. I've yet to see him really excel, but it could be lack of playing.

I moved Perdita way up because my basic tactic vs her is to kill her crew, but avoid her at all cost... only way I ever beat her. Any time I go after her for the kill, I lose.

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For thank you for applying context calmdown. Based on that criteria your list is virtually where I feel it should be but I'd put nico to tier4 but its splitting micro hares below the assumed curve. On a pure vaccum of master vs master all other things equal I feel virtually the same withe one minor tweak but in a pure 3tiered your spot on in the buckets

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I certainly think this sort of tier list is quite a viable idea; trying to make one for casual play would be entirely impossible!

Marcus basically is a character that people don't like on paper, but if you were to list his strengths it would be the ability to get VPs, if you follow me.

I still quite often hear the "Why are there no black characters in Malifaux?" "What about Marcus?" "Exactly." Because not many play him.

Som'er has a bad rep because he takes knowing how to play him, which is quite hard to do without sitting down and playing it out. I feel that he is always going to be a full "tier" above Ophelia, despite my love for Ophelia~ That said, Ophelia will always be easier to just pick up and play for most anyone.

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The biggest thing to take away from this list of Masters is its just one person's view of the game. Depending on the people who play in your group your list will differ significantly. He has rated Zorida at best a mid tier master, yet at last years Gen Con tournament the two players at the top table used her almost exclusively.

So while in Calmdown's experience Hamelin may be the best master he sees used that won't be the same for everyone. And no matter how objectively you look at it your experiences with and against masters will be tainted by the people you play. Its all a matter of opinion, don't be afraid to form your own.

On a bitter angry ranty note: Nicodem is a beast, if you can't win with him you seriously need to try again, and I might recommend maybe reading his card for once.

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Where abouts are you based? I'll happily play Gremlins against your Nicodem

Thats why you should be coming to Gencon Spiku. Zephir is one of the players in my local play group.

I would love to knock your gremlins around a bit! :) Although I would not use Nicodem... damn undead corpse digging up guy. He does dig up corpses, right?

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I would love to knock your gremlins around a bit! :) Although I would not use Nicodem... damn undead corpse digging up guy. He does dig up corpses, right?

At least all he does is dig them up. Let's not start talking about Seamus.

And if Zeph is one of Nix's locals then I would take his boast seriously. There are three US Malifaux scenes I worry about competitively. The Warmongers in NY, Nix and the Nova guys and the guys coming from Georgia. They all have very strong players who do know the game and have a lot of experience.

Edit: I hear the Ohio and Detroit scene have some strong players as well and there are probably other places that have very good players in the States, these are just the groups I know about.

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i know it's off topic, but in reply to Nilis... the local scenes confuse me...

How is it that you all around the counrty have great scenes, and here, in Indianapolis, where Gencon is, people just don't seem to play?

haha. looks like i'm going to have to start driving out to see you guys! ;)

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