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Breaking Gremlins


Cornelious1424

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Many people just reading things have a great deal of trouble translating this to game play, which leads to some rather amusing, or spurious, comments from people who look at a model in isolation, or "rank" things before seeing them in combinations.

I have believed this sense I first joined the forums. I know this is a Gremlins post but this anecdote applies. I have seen and heard many people say that "Marcus is really bad, but he's good a completing strategies and schemes." I laugh every time because what they just said is "Marcus is really bad, but he's good at winning."

In regards to Gremlins, Dumb Luck is not Dumb Luck. Dumb Luck means "I saved this 13:rams so I could cheat in a Sever to kill your model." Dumb Luck should be renamed "Patience and Well-Timed Aggression."

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I think the problem is that, straight out of book 1, gremlins were lackluster. And that's how people made their initial judgement. They had their moment in the sun when they had infinite card draw for about a week, but once that was cuddled the notion of playing them competitively was unlikely. Open your book 1 and see what you can do with that crew. Also, be sure to use the old strategies and schemes. Mosquitoes are awesome, but it wasn't enough to carry the list.

Once book 2 came out, it pretty well fixed them, both the models which gave them what they needed and the rebalancing of strategies/schemes. But people's minds were made up. And book 2 also introduced masters like Kirai, Hamelin, and the Dreamer which made the shiny new gremlins seem less shiny, simply by comparison. But I'm fine with that. I know they're good.

I think another problem is, they have a good number of red herring builds. There's really only one or two ways to play them at a competitive level, and I think pigs are the big distraction. Pig builds are cool and fun and I enjoy playing them, but I wouldn't bring a warpig to a tournament. Of course, I also think Malifaux is by far best played as a friendly game, so that's not a huge deal.

I couldn't agree more. I've tried to make the pigs competitively many times, it's awesome fun no doubt, but it's not anything worth using in a tournament environment.

I really am trying to figure out what the other list could be, my self. I know how awesome a list can be when you exploit mosquitos, it's almost not fair. I guess it's time to take a better look at what the options are, cause it obviously doesn't include too many if the Kin. Too much time playing Ressers has me forgetting about what the boys in the bayou.

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Sigh ... I've been doing them before they were cool too ...

You too huh, I have been running gremlins from the start (almost three years ago now). I love the excitement about something I've known for awhile, but hate the idea that this is a new thing that just happened.

I think the problem is that, straight out of book 1, gremlins were lackluster. And that's how people made their initial judgement. They had their moment in the sun when they had infinite card draw for about a week, but once that was cuddled the notion of playing them competitively was unlikely. Open your book 1 and see what you can do with that crew. Also, be sure to use the old strategies and schemes. Mosquitoes are awesome, but it wasn't enough to carry the list.

Once book 2 came out, it pretty well fixed them, both the models which gave them what they needed and the rebalancing of strategies/schemes. But people's minds were made up. And book 2 also introduced masters like Kirai, Hamelin, and the Dreamer which made the shiny new gremlins seem less shiny, simply by comparison. But I'm fine with that. I know they're good.

I think another problem is, they have a good number of red herring builds. There's really only one or two ways to play them at a competitive level, and I think pigs are the big distraction. Pig builds are cool and fun and I enjoy playing them, but I wouldn't bring a warpig to a tournament. Of course, I also think Malifaux is by far best played as a friendly game, so that's not a huge deal.

Hey I remember that thread asserting that the Gremlins would win at GenCon.

On topic though, I agree with a lot of this Lalo (and of course historically we have disagreed a lot on the Gremlins) however I disagree (of course) that the Pigs can't provide the basis for a competitive list or that the Book 1 stuff was lackluster and not competitive on its own. I was competitive before Book 2 (and never used the Infinite Red Joker draw) and am still competitive after it (and of course I still use mainly Book 1 Stuff in my lists). For me the Book 1 models give you the most bang for the buck (with the exception of the Warpig which I agree with you on).

I would emphasize that all games are best played friendly vice competitive, I seem to remember a great quote on the Privateer Press Site that said something (paraphrasing badly) "the intent is to win, the purpose is to have fun" the two are not synonymous as you can definately have fun without winning but often win at the expense of having fun.

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I couldn't agree more. I've tried to make the pigs competitively many times, it's awesome fun no doubt, but it's not anything worth using in a tournament environment.

I really am trying to figure out what the other list could be, my self. I know how awesome a list can be when you exploit mosquitos, it's almost not fair. I guess it's time to take a better look at what the options are, cause it obviously doesn't include too many if the Kin. Too much time playing Ressers has me forgetting about what the boys in the bayou.

One Mosquito + one malifaux rat + Rami + Slop Hauler + Ophelia + 3-5 soul stones. Fill in the rest with the basic bayou gremlin.

Done.

Pull out pigapault or other family members during particularly whacky strategies.

---------- Post added at 01:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------

You too huh, I have been running gremlins from the start (almost three years ago now). I love the excitement about something I've known for awhile, but hate the idea that this is a new thing that just happened.

Hey I remember that thread asserting that the Gremlins would win at GenCon.

On topic though, I agree with a lot of this Lalo (and of course historically we have disagreed a lot on the Gremlins) however I disagree (of course) that the Pigs can't provide the basis for a competitive list or that the Book 1 stuff was lackluster and not competitive on its own. I was competitive before Book 2 (and never used the Infinite Red Joker draw) and am still competitive after it (and of course I still use mainly Book 1 Stuff in my lists). For me the Book 1 models give you the most bang for the buck (with the exception of the Warpig which I agree with you on).

I would emphasize that all games are best played friendly vice competitive, I seem to remember a great quote on the Privateer Press Site that said something (paraphrasing badly) "the intent is to win, the purpose is to have fun" the two are not synonymous as you can definately have fun without winning but often win at the expense of having fun.

It depended a lot on meta.

Properly abused mosquitoes could get you a long way in book 1 meta.

But there were certain match ups that were just impossible. Like assassinate against lilith/perdita. Which is who I always ended up playing, and they would just sit on an 8 cache in defensive stance all game while I try to deny their strategy, meaning I'm essentially playing for a tie at best. Can't win a tourny when there are certain games you lose before they start. But, as I said, this has been long fixed.

Anyway, we have always disagreed about the pigs. And probably always will. I hope you're right though, because if I end up having to work demos or the booth during the tournies (which is probable) you'll have to win Gencon with Somer. Or maybe Dumb Luck. Can't let any of these upstarts have it.

Edited by Justin
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My goodness. That build is near word for word the exact the build I had been playing in isolation at DarkSphere for weeks, because I adore Ophelia so much so used Som'er as purely a mosquito bomb and more importantly anti-fun constant card denial to allow horrific kin shots and Ophelia paired soulstone cannon where need be; minor edits based on the faction/strategies as need be.

You can get by very easily between that list and a pig list; though there are of course far stronger list choices for certain combos of strategies and factions

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It depended a lot on meta.

Properly abused mosquitoes could get you a long way in book 1 meta.

But there were certain match ups that were just impossible. Like assassinate against lilith/perdita. Which is who I always ended up playing, and they would just sit on an 8 cache in defensive stance all game while I try to deny their strategy, meaning I'm essentially playing for a tie at best. Can't win a tourny when there are certain games you lose before they start. But, as I said, this has been long fixed.

Those matchups are why I dont run a pure pig list anymore, I consider the Pig Boomerang as more of a hybrid list that uses them early transitioning to either an Alpha Stank (usually against those two Masters) or Gunline toward turn 3-4. Though with the Gremlin Taxidermist I now have a great way to get at them with pigs (moping up with Some'r and the Alpha Stank).

Anyway, we have always disagreed about the pigs. And probably always will. I hope you're right though, because if I end up having to work demos or the booth during the tournies (which is probable) you'll have to win Gencon with Somer. Or maybe Dumb Luck. Can't let any of these upstarts have it.

Hopefully I will be working the booth right their next to you and Karn again myself (I prefer those social interactions and helping out the Wyrd crew to the drudgery of the tournament scene). Of course as I said last year I should be bringing quite a few minions to assist (so you might be able to sneak away easier).

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It depended a lot on meta.

Properly abused mosquitoes could get you a long way in book 1 meta.

But there were certain match ups that were just impossible. Like assassinate against lilith/perdita. Which is who I always ended up playing, and they would just sit on an 8 cache in defensive stance all game while I try to deny their strategy, meaning I'm essentially playing for a tie at best. Can't win a tourny when there are certain games you lose before they start. But, as I said, this has been long fixed.

Anyway, we have always disagreed about the pigs. And probably always will. I hope you're right though, because if I end up having to work demos or the booth during the tournies (which is probable) you'll have to win Gencon with Somer. Or maybe Dumb Luck. Can't let any of these upstarts have it.

Man, those were the days >:o.

I guess I'll be packing my Gremlins for Gencon!!! Less to paint anyway, and I won't even have to try to win =P.

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My goodness. That build is near word for word the exact the build I had been playing in isolation at DarkSphere for weeks, because I adore Ophelia so much so used Som'er as purely a mosquito bomb and more importantly anti-fun constant card denial to allow horrific kin shots and Ophelia paired soulstone cannon where need be; minor edits based on the faction/strategies as need be.

You can get by very easily between that list and a pig list; though there are of course far stronger list choices for certain combos of strategies and factions

Great minds and all that.

Yeah, that list will get you by with most things. I find most of my variation involves a pigapault for objectives...or perre, for fun and mayhem.

---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------

If you want to pay for the airfare, I'll gladly come over and coach you guys on how to play Gremlins!

Gencon isn't until August. How hard is it to build a raft?

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Indeed; though because of the flat charm of the bugger I started taking the pigapult rather regularly. People would throw their arms up in despair when I flipped Deliver a Message.

I attribute a number of wins vs Neverborn to having that piece of mobile terrain; though I am hard pressed to take Pere. I had a wonderful game against The Dreamer one time with Line in the Sand which had so many pigapult mosquitoes/gremlins thrown everywhere.

It's situational certainly, with a lot of good situations, but amongst my friendly games it is auto include at 35+ just because it's a pigapult.

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People would throw their arms up in despair when I flipped Deliver a Message.

+ Line in the sand (you already mentioned that)

+ Claim Jump (turn 6 launch)

+ Destroy the evidence

+ Turf War, Reconnoiter (summon three Bayous each turn and launch them everywhere on the opponent's half or the table quarters)

+ Treasure Hunt (your treasure should be in your deployment zone in the end of turn one)

+ Plant Evidence

+ playing against supply wagon (out-activate your opponent and block his wagon with your little ones)

+ ...

and some schemes:

+ breakthrough

+ grudge (launch Ophelia onto your target, use a soulstone for defence flip if neccessary)

+ steal relic (kill your opponent's hand and launch 3 bayous at him = possilbly 9 interact actions to defend)

+ stake a claim (turn 6 launch)

+ playing against hold out (turn 6 launch)

+ ...

All in all you get 8+ VP for 4 soulstones

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Anything thrown by a Pigapult should gain Insignificant, really.

Also, Bayou Gremlins should not be significant.

THAT wouldn't solve the problem of balancing the pigapult. IMO there are other minions and masters who should gain insignificant first!!!

I agree that non-soulstone models fired by the pigapult should gain insignificant until next draw phase

Sounds better. Or gain paralysed. But even then "deliver a message" isn't defendable, cause not every master could kill three Gremlins in one activation after winning initiative. Or kill six Bayou Gremlins, if Somer has two pigapults....

Frankly, I'd talk about some Neverborn changes first, before drawing off Somer's one and only effective objective achiever!

EDIT: IMO Launchin should be an (all) action. Ophelia could still deliver the message, other Gremlins could die from that action, making last turn stunts for victory points not reliable. That would also prohibit the nasty "launch Bayou and shoot twice on it for some unresistable Blasts" trick.

Edited by Attila
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Anything thrown by a Pigapult should gain Insignificant, really.

Also, Bayou Gremlins should not be significant.

If Bayou weren't significant, then only the LaCroix and (all) piggles would be; you'd have our only significant models be 5 and 6 points?

I agree that non-soulstone models fired by the pigapult should gain insignificant until next draw phase

Making Bayou Gremlins Insignificant (as Spiku alludes to) would destroy the entire Some'r crew.

Most of the things that make them good are also very resource intensive (in terms of required lynchpin models (for the combos), mandatory activation sequences (model A has to go before Model B which has to go before model C, etc), requirement for extra AP (incurring a Wd), and Control Cards to get these combos off).

Additionally, Bayou's aren't really the problem (I can think of 2 crews that are far worse with their 2 SS Significant models). The problems are the loop holes that are being exploited. One such loop hole that needs to be closed (in regards to Some'r anyway) is the Skeeter Larva abuse (often times refered to as the "Infinite Skeeter" activation, even though it is usually only used enough times to insure out activation). There is another that should probably be closed as well but it isn't as nasty as the above (though I dont believe it was intended to be used the way it is).

I do however agree with incurring Insignificant for a turn when being thrown out of the Pigapult and would also recommend either increasing the required Df duel by a point or two (currently Df 5 succeeds about 60% of the time while Df 7 succeed 76%) or incuring a Wd (even if the Df duel is made).

---------- Post added at 01:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

Frankly, I'd talk about some Neverborn changes first, before drawing off Somer's one and only effective objective achiever!

This is not his only "effective objective achiever" it is his easiest method (Pig Ladders and Pig Boomerangs are just as effective though require much more planning and resources).

EDIT: IMO Launchin should be an (all) action. Ophelia could still deliver the message, other Gremlins could die from that action, making last turn stunts for victory points not reliable. That would also prohibit the nasty "launch Bayou and shoot twice on it for some unresistable Blasts" trick.

Sort of like how the Flying Pigs talent works (just applied to every model that takes the ride). What an elegant solution that would be, remove Launch'n and reword Flying Pigs to apply to everyone Ht 1 model that takes the ride (simple and done).

Edited by Omenbringer
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I agree that non-soulstone models fired by the pigapult should gain insignificant until next draw phase

I reckon this is the best and least intrusive solution.

I must say that the pigapult is being painted as a bit of a doomsday weapon. With suggestions that summoning 3 Bayou Gremlins (resource intensive) and landing them where you want (flip reliant) almost assumed as a guaranteed result. It is also remarkably easy to destroy (ht3 and a love of reckless. Not to mention poison...).

I agree that in theory it can be a game changer but in my experience it rarely is. And if being theoretically game changing then there are much worse bogeymen out there...

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This is not his only "effective objective achiever" it is his easiest method (Pig Ladders and Pig Boomerangs are just as effective though require much more planning and resources).

Maybe I'd better write: high achiever and cost-effective. English isn't my native language.

Sure, there're hundreds of ways to deliver messages (emails, homing pigeons,...), but none of it for a (1) action of a 4 soulstone minion. That's most cost-effective, isn't it?

Additionally the pigapult is one solution for most strategies and schemes.

Sort of like how the Flying Pigs talent works (just applied to every model that takes the ride). What an elegant solution that would be, remove Launch'n and reword Flying Pigs to apply to everyone Ht 1 model that takes the ride (simple and done).

I was thinking of replacing the action "(1) Launchin..." to "(all) Launchin...".

Your idea wouldn't solve last turn breakthroughs with four Bayous (at least one will survive...) nor launching many Bayous waiting for initiative to deliver their message.

Just to get my points across :)

EDIT:

It is also remarkably easy to destroy (ht3 and a love of reckless. Not to mention poison...).

Excuse me?! Object 5, 5 Wds, standing behind terrain and almost everyone in your crew can repair it with a (1) action?

I'd say it is remarkably impossible to destroy :)

Edited by Attila
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Excuse me?! Object 5, 5 Wds, standing behind terrain and almost everyone in your crew can repair it with a (1) action?

I'd say it is remarkably impossible to destroy :)

Df 1 so pretty much anyone attacking it will do a wound. All of the examples above require it to use reckless which obviously weakens it. And I must be the only poor sod that gets poisoned every bloomin' week...*wink*

Also, get something into melee with it and it no longer does anything. (Actually the last time i used one I killed a Ronin in melee! A 'hard to kill' Ronin! Happy days! True story.)

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I was thinking of replacing the action "(1) Launchin..." to "(all) Launchin...".

Your idea wouldn't solve last turn breakthroughs with four Bayous (at least one will survive...) nor launching many Bayous waiting for initiative to deliver their message.

It does when adding in the Insignificant penalty that was suggested by Calmdown and Spiku and either of the two recommendations I gave (either the increase to the Df duel or incuring 1 Wd after landing regardless of success). It also returns the Pigapult to the model it was intended to be vice what it has become (without making it useless).

Also, get something into melee with it and it no longer does anything. (Actually the last time i used one I killed a Ronin in melee! A 'hard to kill' Ronin! Happy days! True story.)

Being in melee with it just shuts down it's ranged attack (which is one of its more rarely used abilities anyway) not the movement tricks.

Edited by Omenbringer
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