Simultaneous triggers

[von Clausewitz]

The following situation occurred today and I just wanted to be sure that we played it correctly:

I activated Lady Justice and cast Sword Style choosing to gain the Onslaught trigger. Lady Justice then charges Rafael LaCroix. She hits with a Mask in her total and declares Onslaught trigger. Rafael gets a Mask on his defense total and declares the Squeel! trigger.

I ruled that because Lady Justice was the acting model that she would get to make her free Kelsey strike before the 4" Squeel! push takes place. Furthermore, on Lady Justice's free melee strike I hit again, once again with a Mask in the total and so I declare Onslaught again. Now, the free melee attack from this Onslaught would then resolve before the Squeel! push that is still waiting to resolve, correct?

Like I said, I believe I ruled this correctly, but some confirmation would be much appreciated as the friend I was playing accepted the ruling but was not particularly pleased with it.

[Wolfgar]

I don't think there is a clean line of precedence for simultaneous Triggers.

[Q'iq'el]

The Triggers are hardly ever simultaneous and I don't think in this case they are.

You have to pay exact attention to wording and then the order becomes obvious.

Onslaught is a trigger giving Lady J a fresh strike, which means a new Duel - a free action. Just like triggers which allow a new cast (Rasputina's Overpower for example), these triggers are executed only after you finish the original Duel.

On the other hand Squee! causes a Push - in this case a mere Movement Effect, so it is applied during the Duel - precisely, after the model gets damaged, before the Duel ends.

In other words the Push should, IMHO, happen before Lady J gets her strike.

Now if the Squee trigger gave a free walk (which is action rather than movement effect), that would happen after the duel ends and possibly after Lady J's strike.

[Omenbringer]

There is definately a clear order of resolution to triggers (page 43 of the Rules Manual).

In this case the push from Squeel would happen before the extra strike from onslaught (thus negating the extra attack because the target is now out of range). Squeel is a result of the initial attack and would have to be completed prior to begining the next action granted by onslaught.

For clarity here is the wording of Squeel:

After this model is damaged by an enemy

melee attack, push it 4” directly away from the attacker.

As soon as the model is damaged the effect resolves.

And Onslaught:

After damaging defender with a

Greatsword Strike, immediately make a Greatsword

Strike against the defender.

Because the model with squeel had to sustain damage to use the trigger and the only way it could have sustained the damage was if the attack was successful his trigger would resolve before Onslaught because of the lower duel total and the fact that he is the defender.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Omenbringer

[von Clausewitz]

Actually, now that I look at both triggers more closely, I am more convinced that Onslaught would occur first due to the fact that it contains the immedately key word and Squeel! does not.

[Kadeton]

Yeah, I can't find anything that directly resolves this sort of thing.

The only significant difference is that Onslaught uses the word "immediately" whereas Squeel! doesn't, although I doubt that would be enough to hinge a resolution priority on.

I guess the same situation applies to other Df triggers... the timing on Colette's A Blinding Flash is even more vague.

[Wolfgar]

Well both state that the effect happens when the target is damaged, and that's the end of the duel. I still don't see any clear cut reason to support one over the other.

[Wolfgar]

There is definately a clear order of resolution to triggers (page 43 of the Rules Manual).

Yeah, Page 43 states that the opponent with the lower total gets to declare triggers first, so that's possible grounds for a tie-breaker.

[Omenbringer]

while I was reformatting my post several of you posted, I would ask that you all reread it for why it works that way.

Bottom line is that Squeel would resolve first and remove the model from melee range thus negating the strike from onslaught (since the target is no longer in melee range)

[Kadeton]

Yeah, Page 43 states that the opponent with the lower total gets to declare triggers first, so that's possible grounds for a tie-breaker.

Page 43 states very clearly that the description of the triggers determines when they are applied. It's more than a stretch to treat the order of declaration as the order of resolution.

[Omenbringer]

Actually, now that I look at both triggers more closely, I am more convinced that Onslaught would occur first due to the fact that it contains the immedately key word and Squeel! does not.

Immediately in this case means as soon as the initial attack is fully resolved, but before doing any other Actions

[Wolfgar]

Plus I believe the goal of Squeel is to push the poor gremlin out of way of multiple hit beatdowns, so that's serving it's purpose.

[Q'iq'el]

Actually, now that I look at both triggers more closely, I am more convinced that Onslaught would occur first due to the fact that it contains the immedately key word and Squeel! does not.

All such rules contain word "immediately". Same for rules which allow models to activate "immediately" after they get summoned.

That means you cannot take another action before executing the one given by the trigger, but you still have to finish action you are performing at the moment it goes off.

It's been ruled on the forums in the past, that if you get an entire fresh action out of the Trigger, you must finish your current action first (the Duel). I wish I remembered the thread or if it is mentioned in the Rules Manual or not. I'm afraid not.

Onslaught is one of these triggers that almost always go last.

[Kadeton]

It's been ruled on the forums in the past, that if you get an entire fresh action out of the Trigger, you must finish your current action first (the Duel). I wish I remembered the thread or if it is mentioned in the Rules Manual or not. I'm afraid not.

Onslaught is one of these triggers that almost always go last.

Yeah, sadly it isn't mentioned in the RM. One of many clarifications that are needed in the next version.

I agree that Onslaught should go after Squeel (and, incidentally, A Blinding Flash).

[von Clausewitz]

.The rules on pg 43 specifically refer to declaring and not the order of resolution.

Also, Onslaught does not grant a free action. Recall that there is a difference between the general attack action (1)Strike which is an action and the keyword Strike which is a duel that arises from a multitude of different sources. New duels can be inserted into the middle of existing duels, for example the duel from Pitiful happens during another duel.

I do entirely agree with Q'iq'el that a new action would wait until after Squeel! resolved, however like I said above, Onslaught does not generate a new action just a new duel. Now if Onslaught granted additional AP that could only be used on a melee strike it would be another matter, but it does not, it simply creates a new duel.

[Q'iq'el]

I think it still counts as a free action. It is all new Duel with the new triggers and everything. The purpose of sending these things back after the duel ends is to avoid such endless loops. IIRC Rasputina's Overpower and Lady Js Onslaught have already been discussed on the forum, I'm pretty sure the ruling has been about those. Sorry, can't find it quickly from the phone.

Perhaps it is me actually messing up the wording. Quite possible it originally has been about triggers granting free attacks rather than free actions. The point is, this is where it should apply.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Actually, now that I look at both triggers more closely, I am more convinced that Onslaught would occur first due to the fact that it contains the immedately key word and Squeel! does not.

Immediately implies only that the onslaught model's next action is a strike. Onslaught does not compare to pitiful or other targeting duels. It's an entirely new duel taking place immediately after the full resolution of the last duel.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[von Clausewitz]

Let's look at the Hangman's knot example of pausing effects given on RM7. According to the example, if the damage from the spell kills, say Molly, the effects would pause and an entirely new duel could occur as a result of slow to die, before the push effect of hangman's knot resolved. This makes it explicitly clear that the effects of duels can be interrupted by entirely new duels.

[diehard]

OK, I'm just studying the rules now (in fact, picked up a second spiral bound Manual to make all that flipping around easier.) So I tend to follow most of the rules questions that arise with great interest. So, establishing that this is coming from a relatively new Malifaux player (but a gamer of 20+ years and someone who has run tournies for another game system) I'm looking at:

Both Triggers are activated from damage being caused (first line in their description) so they would be occurring at the same time. In Timing in the Rules Manual (Pg. 6, bottom of page) it tells us "Players should resolve effects occurring simultaneously in the following order: first bullet is Must before May (neither apply here.) Second bullet is Resolve immediate effects first, then effects of the acting player, then by activation order of that players models.

To me it looks as if (going by Read As Is) that since Onslaught contains the word "immediate" it would happen before Squee. Actually, even if it didn't, since it's resolve the effects of the acting player next, one would think it would activate first even if it did not state "immediately."

Now there could be something I'm missing here, but it looks pretty straight forward by the wording.

[Huang Da Wei]

I am only a newbie and not good at the rules but think of it in a real scenario.

You swing a freeking big sword at me that hits me and knocks me backwards, you swing again but I am on my backside some feet away. You need to step in to slap me again.

[Omenbringer]

Both Qi'iq'el and myself have explained the timing of this trigger interaction (Rules Marshal's aren't needed for every single thread in this sub-forum).

Squeel goes before the additional granted "free" strike from Onslaught because squeel is a part of the initial strike resolution where as Onslaught grants an entirely new strike that will occur once the initial strike is complete.

As I said earleir the "immediately" part of Onslaught is there to say that the "free strike" must occur immediately after the current attack has resolved and before any additional actions.

As Q'iq'el posted this has been answered many times on the forum. The answer is exactly the same as we said, here is the link to the Squeel Onslaught interaction thread from a year ago (isn't search a great thing?) that has confirmation from a Rules Marshal (since that seems to be all you'll except).

Edited January 2, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Wolfgar]

That doesn't go anywhere.

[Omenbringer]

What the link?

[Wolfgar]

Yep.

[Omenbringer]

Funny it works for me.

Damn it found the problem, it was posted on the Henchman side of the Forum (so only henchman have access to it). I really wish resolved threads over there would migrate over to the public side.

Guess we wait for a Rules Marshal to post the same thing over here.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Wolfgar]

Thought that might be it. You henchfolk do need to let us regular people in on these things.