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Trapper - Anti-tech and Anti-anti-tech


Kael Hate

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They can make 12 attacks a turn and on average are dropping low cost res models in 2 (unless they have Hard to Kill).

check your math on this one 12 attacks don't equal 12 hits when starting stats are equal. The attacker has the slightest advantage. I agree with straight flip for damage being most likely outcome it will take 2-3 hits to kill per kill so let's say 7 out of 12 attacks hit that is the likely outcome unless I bolster. You will get 2-3 kills, now one decay will resist the counter and save probably one or two. Turn one if played right could see only one lost.

Check your math, Def stance has to be the first action and gives a -2 to Wk and Cg (so Wk2, Cg 5), they can cover 10" for an 11" threat range if they charge (and less if they leap and double walk).

Totally my bad meant to say the necro will be in range of leap turn 2. Plus I did state def stance ss first action so I am aware of negatives so that would mean I move no more than 7" which would mean if we were 12" to start I'm now 4" from melee range.

You are not killing that many trappers in 1 turn with Necropunks since they wont be able to use Flurry if they aren't within 1 :melee (or 6" if they use Leap first) and dont put out that great of damage anyway (most likely 1 on anything but severe damage)

I never meant to imply I would get a kill turn 1 the killing would start turn 2. Once I start getting multiple in range that is slow on that models next activation. Meaning I get 2-3 attacks and he gets one. If we go to next turn, that makes all the difference.

True until you get into melee wiht them where they are up 1 and can benefit from another trigger (increasing their chances of pulling one).

hard to kill is still a factor and brutal is a chance trigger. Also I believe they no longer get postive against undead.

Short threat range unless you aren't going Defensive (and even then your threat range is less then half of mine if you want to use Flurry)

true but further back you start more I can work on schemes and strategies, numbers are on my side. Also you have to hit to get reposition. At neat you are doing that a little over half unless I have bolster up which would decrease to less than half.

He cant heal what is dead, only raise Zombies which VonSchill easily dispatches with Last Rites.

I have concede that point but I can bring schill close by using slow to die to walk back towards Nico so counter is closer for him to use. This is quite effective. Also schill will have to use one of his precious zeros which can make a big difference.

Slow to Die isn't an issue since you are probably out of retaliation range anyway.

slow to die doesn't have to be used for retaliation. I have used in past to fall back when not engaged to get a better placement of counters. This in most cases will allow me if not engaged to get the counter within range of Nico for summoning.

Those fast objective grabbers die to 2 maybe 3 shots from the rifles. Bolster undead may help but your models need to stay within 10" of Nico and have threat range to the trappers (not always easy to manage).

You can agre, I hope if you do the math I'm not losing that many. I'm aware of range of Nico moving him up 3" a turn would help with bolster and if I want to wait I can always do the block walk which trappers can't see more than 3" into. Point being my spam has more options than trapper spam giving me the necessary versatility to pretty much be a pair of scissors to his paper.

Hardly auto-win it is a resource war at that point and once VonSchill starts removing those corpse counters, one which Nico will likely lose.

Nico can always raise dead ting better range and summon the mindless 3" behind and than summon from that horde. Now that is a risk but it would also be a risk for vonschill to cone into range with last rites. I have the longer range than he does.

You mean Rigor Mortis, the spell that has a range of 10 and requires Nico to flip a 10 or higher and VonSchill to flip the same to beat the WP resist (even chance either way even with SoulStones and I would give the advantage to Vonschill who is able to cheat and soulstone after the target number is set by Nico who wont ba able to change it again).

fair point but you fail to mention that I have more ss than he does. Fair trade in my opinion to try and a threat the opponent needs to contemplate when schill wants to threaten my counters. Plus there is the threat of what can be summoned on top of him. Since I wouldn't summon more necropunks.

Vonschill's crew has 6 models (and once the rounds start flying that out activation is going to be mindless zombies at the end of the turn).

7-11models I have more period. I get 4 more activations and I can replenish my numbers with bigger threats. This all comes down to activation orders. Having played j and against schill, I know last rites is limited to getting bunched up counters and mindless zombies, but it requires a deadly threat to position itself costing valuable AP. It is rare that the counters are all bunched up neatly especially with models with slow to die that can spread counters out.

True, apologies, though the pair can still generate 4 strikes at :ranged 16 (with a pretty decent damage spread and Vonschill doesnt care about Hard to Wound at all).

but hard to kill is still frustrating for schill and trappers. Granted without hard to wound the dmg flips for trappers is likely to be moderate enough to get the model in range for 2 shot kill but chances of weak are good enough and that is going to push the number to three shots to get a kill. 16" range is great no doubt and jerky time will help keep the trappers alive and reduce the chance that a necro will get the kill. That is why it is important to place the necro punks just out of btb so counters are not easily obtained. Waste an AP to move heal up. But at that point you probably won't because you are slow and you had to use the one AP to kill.

What can be summoned will be the true threats that will kill the trappers. Granted that is going to be the real battle is the counters buy I am confident there is not enough threats and if you play back field I will complete my strategies and schemes and win with vp. As has been pointed out in earlier posts, the write schemes will ensure victory. I can only think slaughter as a strategy that you would have the advantage.

One point I forgot to mention against a necro list is schill can give mass slow since they are constructs, but that zero will be a fair trade because it will cost him either a bit of mobility or last rites.

And yes theoryfaux seemed to be theme of this thread.

Really we should be comparing this list to standard lists you bring against the declared faction outcasts. I for one would not bring the Necro spam if outcasts was declared.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth
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Told myself I wan't going to do this but I have some time and am enjoying the banter back and forth, I do actually consider this very constructive (theorymachine or not).

And to be clear of two things;

  1. at this point I consider this a purely academic excercise (since some thoughtful stuff has been posted that will benefit the community as a whole) and
  2. I do not consider this an auto-win list by any means but do consider it competitive in a lot of situations.

And with that in mind...

12 shots, not every one will hit by odds alone not including cheating. 2-3 negative flips each one. even without healing from spells and abilities, maybe using a couple stones on on prevents. The killer here of course is the rogue red joker. Or a really lucky severe on schills gun (he doesnt ignore seamus H2W as hes not undead)

But seamus aside. You are right, the trenches have been dug.

On Seamus they are up 1 on CB and ties will go to the attacker so basically up 2 (15% advantage to the Trappers), dont really care about :-fate modifiers as they are plinking away at your Wounds, control cards (when you start cheating) and Soulstones when you start preventing the damage or healing during your turn (and using AP). Since the plan doesn't revolve around hitting severe damage ever (just hitting the model as many times as possible) :-fate flips on damage actually work in my favor to pull out those Jokers thanks to the very real possibility of drawing 4-5 cards per successful :ranged stike (1 for the attack flip, and 3-4 for the damage flip). In this circumstance it isn't about quality of hit but quantity of them (a million ants can devour an elephant).

check your math on this one 12 attacks don't equal 12 hits when starting stats are equal. The attacker has the slightest advantage. I agree with straight flip for damage being most likely outcome it will take 2-3 hits to kill per kill so let's say 7 out of 12 attacks hit that is the likely outcome unless I bolster. You will get 2-3 kills, now one decay will resist the counter and save probably one or two. Turn one if played right could see only one lost.

Granted not all of them are going to hit the Necropunks (especially if benefitting from Bolster) but in your example you have still lost 2-3 (that decay wont help since they are dead and now corpse counters), using Reanimator to bring them back (either this turn, if Nico is activating after they have died providing no help from Bolster Undead ,or next turn if Nico has already gone to use Bolster Undead on the minions) means Nicodem isn't moving up field with his force so wont be able to support as well.

Additionally the problem with Bolster Undead is that it is predicated on Nico going before his minions (committing to a location), giving the option of focusing on killing him before he raises a Zombie horde (to shunt hits to) or brings out something nastier (both of which wouldn't occur until the next turn).

Totally my bad meant to say the necro will be in range of leap turn 2. Plus I did state def stance ss first action so I am aware of negatives so that would mean I move no more than 7" which would mean if we were 12" to start I'm now 4" from melee range

Necropunks are not going to be safe 4" infront of a gunline for a turn. On average going to be losing 1-2 and now those corpse counters are within grabbing range (even with the Slow to Die Walk Back).

I never meant to imply I would get a kill turn 1 the killing would start turn 2. Once I start getting multiple in range that is slow on that models next activation. Meaning I get 2-3 attacks and he gets one. If we go to next turn, that makes all the difference...

hard to kill is still a factor and brutal is a chance trigger. Also I believe they no longer get postive against undead

That is why it is important to place the necro punks just out of btb so counters are not easily obtained. Waste an AP to move heal up. But at that point you probably won't because you are slow and you had to use the one AP to kill.

Reposition is great for collecting those just out of base to base corpse counters (since all you have to do is move across them).

Though Slow does pose a very real problem it does also tie up at least 2 of your Necropunks to induce (and can be mitigated somewhat by activating unengaged trappers first to kill one of the Necropunks and if hitting the trigger a control card). And though they wont get a :+fate flip to damage in melee with the knife against the Constructs they still drop in four weak hits.

true but further back you start more I can work on schemes and strategies, numbers are on my side. Also you have to hit to get reposition. At neat you are doing that a little over half unless I have bolster up which would decrease to less than half.

From the Shadows allows set up anywhere on the board as long as it is 12" away from an enemy model or objective of any strategy or known scheme (still well within threat range of their rifles).

And 2 points in Df = 15% increase in chance of success (Defensive Stance still only provides an additional opprotunity at the 15% chance).

What can be summoned will be the true threats that will kill the trappers. Granted that is going to be the real battle is the counters buy I am confident there is not enough threats and if you play back field I will complete my strategies and schemes and win with vp. As has been pointed out in earlier posts, the write schemes will ensure victory. I can only think slaughter as a strategy that you would have the advantage.

They dont have to stay in the back field to be effective they can apply presure turn one with thoughtful From the Shadows deployment.

Corpse counters can only be used for creating new models if within a certain range (usually 6") or carried by your model with the creation spell. That isn't a very large radius. Reposition is great for scooting out and picking up those corpse counters to deny your opponent the ability to use them. Additionally the summoning is far from guaranteed (you still have to successfully cast it.

I would say that slaughter is actually a more difficult strategy for this crew as it means they have to kill everything instead of camping and concentrating fire on targets, I would much prefer to draw Claimjump, Contain Power, Deliver a Message, Destroy the Evidence, Distract, Plant Evidence, Treasure Hunt, or Turf War. Would also prefer to face Treasure Hunt, Supply Wagon, Plant Evidence, Escape and SurviveDestroy the Evidence, Deliver a Message, or A line in the Sand.

Nico can always raise dead ting better range and summon the mindless 3" behind and than summon from that horde. Now that is a risk but it would also be a risk for vonschill to cone into range with last rites. I have the longer range than he does

Huh? Nico can raise Mindless Zombies at 10" (but then cant Bolster them), Reanimator is range 6 (for the corpse counter and then the new model may be placed 6" from Nico), if Nico is close enough to summon models 3" behind VonSchill, Vonschill is close enough to prevent it with Last Rites or bring the pain on Nico (who probably wont have anyone to shunt the hit to since the Zombies within 2" of him will be gone now) Hard to Wound 1 isn't really protection either since he has a Df of 3 (22% disadvantage).

fair point but you fail to mention that I have more ss than he does. Fair trade in my opinion to try and a threat the opponent needs to contemplate when schill wants to threaten my counters. Plus there is the threat of what can be summoned on top of him. Since I wouldn't summon more necropunks.

You'll have more Soulstones begining, however they are going to go quickly enough when you have to start adding to Df flips and preventing Damage. Go ahead and use Zombie Fodder to protect him (there goes that Corpse Counter). As said above summoning on top of VonSchill means you are well within range of retaliation from the Friekorps (a place Nico doesn't really want to be.

7-11models I have more period. I get 4 more activations and I can replenish my numbers with bigger threats. This all comes down to activation orders. Having played j and against schill, I know last rites is limited to getting bunched up counters and mindless zombies, but it requires a deadly threat to position itself costing valuable AP. It is rare that the counters are all bunched up neatly especially with models with slow to die that can spread counters out.

You may have numbers initially, however you are going to lose some each turn if you take a bunch of little guys. Anything you summon will be slow and have to activate after the model summoning it so isn't really an immediate threat. Out activation only really matters if you can do something with it.

Additionally Last Rites isn't limited to just clusters of corpse counters (it is most effective in this situation but if I know you need Corpse counters I'll go ahead and forego an AP to get rid of one or two, especially if it means your not summoning something). Also :pulse 12 is a lot of real estate on the board (especailly if he uses it to get rid of a few near him then jumps 5" and does it again to get rid of some more)

Now after all that let me reemphasize this again, I do not consider this an auto-win list by any means (I have posted several things in this thread that can shut it down very well) however the assumption that it is not competitive because it is to narrowly focused is far from accurate.

PS. Mr. Bigglesworth please use quotes instead of colors when responding it makes formatting and actually catching all your comments much easier since it will automatically remove the previously quoted section (especially since all your colors aren't actually showing up within the text).

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On Seamus they are up 1 on CB and ties will go to the attacker so basically up 2 (15% advantage to the Trappers), dont really care about :-fate modifiers as they are plinking away at your Wounds, control cards (when you start cheating) and Soulstones when you start preventing the damage or healing during your turn (and using AP). Since the plan doesn't revolve around hitting severe damage ever (just hitting the model as many times as possible) :-fate flips on damage actually work in my favor to pull out those Jokers thanks to the very real possibility of drawing 4-5 cards per successful :ranged stike (1 for the attack flip, and 3-4 for the damage flip). In this circumstance it isn't about quality of hit but quantity of them (a million ants can devour an elephant).

but the problem is that youre doing more than likely min damage (1) and unlikely but possible moderate (3 iirc). The damage prevention flips are for when you hit that joker, sure it isnt going to stop it, but i'll stay alive. And with hard to kill, youre likely not going to get me in that 1 activation.

but yeah, I dont wanna mathfaux here. but the odds off killing seamus not including him activating are relatively lowish. even at what? 65% chance of hitting him you threw out there? so thats like 8 shots. likely hood of getting min damage on 2-3 :-fate with 1 in 3 cards being a min damage, thats quite likely. so 8+ damage on average not including anything I can do to stop you. without me spending a soulstone or a card. and hes got 12 wounds, hard to kill, and has abilities to heal very quickly. As to the red joker, yeah thats a possibility, black joker is just as possible though. And if you get the red joker in hand at around what? 1 in 5 odds? then thats a turn where you cant use it effectively to kill seamus. (sure it will kill a minion, but a red joker, on any shot from anything at a minion will kill it, so its nothing special there)

Im not saying its impossible, im just saying those weapons, agaisnt that target, is really rather unlikely. You'd be better off with alot of different models in that scenario.

Reposition is great for collecting those just out of base to base corpse counters (since all you have to do is move across them).

the reposition trigger isnt on their melee, so they wouldnt get it if they sliced him in cc (which is the aim of the necropunk if i read correctly)

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but the problem is that youre doing more than likely min damage (1) and unlikely but possible moderate (3 iirc). The damage prevention flips are for when you hit that joker, sure it isnt going to stop it, but i'll stay alive. And with hard to kill, youre likely not going to get me in that 1 activation.

but yeah, I dont wanna mathfaux here. but the odds off killing seamus not including him activating are relatively lowish. even at what? 65% chance of hitting him you threw out there? so thats like 8 shots. likely hood of getting min damage on 2-3 :-fate with 1 in 3 cards being a min damage, thats quite likely. so 8+ damage on average not including anything I can do to stop you. without me spending a soulstone or a card. and hes got 12 wounds, hard to kill, and has abilities to heal very quickly.

Not going to join the argument here, just wanted to post average damages for those theoryfauxing in the conversations.

Average Damage of the Trapper on hits, from flipped damage (no cheating on damage):

:-fate:-fate:-fate: 1.64

:-fate:-fate: 1.9

Strait: 2.49

:+fate:+fate: 3.18

So, with a :-fate:-fate:-fate on all damage flips, you would have to hit 7.3 (8) times on average to do 12 DMG. With :-fate:-fate on all damage flips you would have to hit 6.3 (7) times on average to do 12 DMG. With Strait flips on all damage flips you would have to hit 4.8 (5) times on average to do 12 DMG. That is not counting stones, hard to kill, or any healing, but it is also not counting any cheats for any potential striat flips. That is also not counting how many times you would have to attack to get that many hits.

I only bring this up because people always expect negative flips to equal min damage, when even with a :-fate:-fate:-fate you are only doing min DMG about 65-70% of the time. That is the majority of the time, but when you are hitting 10 times about 3-4 of those attacks should do more than min DMG.

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Not going to join the argument here, just wanted to post average damages for those theoryfauxing in the conversations.

Average Damage of the Trapper on hits, from flipped damage (no cheating on damage):

:-fate:-fate:-fate: 1.64

:-fate:-fate: 1.9

Strait: 2.49

:+fate:+fate: 3.18

So, with a :-fate:-fate:-fate on all damage flips, you would have to hit 7.3 (8) times on average to do 12 DMG. With :-fate:-fate on all damage flips you would have to hit 6.3 (7) times on average to do 12 DMG. With Strait flips on all damage flips you would have to hit 4.8 (5) times on average to do 12 DMG. That is not counting stones, hard to kill, or any healing, but it is also not counting any cheats for any potential striat flips. That is also not counting how many times you would have to attack to get that many hits.

I only bring this up because people always expect negative flips to equal min damage, when even with a :-fate:-fate:-fate you are only doing min DMG about 65-70% of the time. That is the majority of the time, but when you are hitting 10 times about 3-4 of those attacks should do more than min DMG.

thanks for the mathifaux, im at work and really didnt feel like crunching the numbers. But yes, that shows it, without outside influences to be right there on the cusp to go either way.

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the reposition trigger isnt on their melee, so they wouldnt get it if they sliced him in cc (which is the aim of the necropunk if i read correctly)

You are correct in that the hunting knife wouldn't allow that, but once unengaged it could be used during that same activation or a later one to pick it up. Additionally, this would only limit the engaged trapper (s), the unengaged could still flit around with Reposition and pick it up just as easily.

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