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Trapper - Anti-tech and Anti-anti-tech


Kael Hate

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Here you go:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20035&highlight=Creepy+hunter

The discussion starts from Creepy Fog vs. Master of Malifaux, but it widens and ends up with a ruling on Hunter ability too.

I guess you are right they still ignore cover, they just cannot see more than 3" into it (because their improved LoS is restricted to Terrain).

Also, if I'm not mistaken, you need at least Ht4 elevation to see over Creepy Fog with Hunters.

Edited by Q'iq'el
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^^ All correct, Hunter is cuddle against Stitched Togethers. Things like this you need to know before you declare all comer lists, they fall apart if you don't know the rules.

And to all you haters, rats CAN cover 30" - just don't start with both Rat Catchers on the board at the start. Move 10", Rat Catcher kill all rats, Move 10", summon a new rat catcher in front, kill all rats (and move forward 4" to keep voracious in range later), move 10" ;)

You need a lot of rats to make it effective, but I've used stuff like this to get from one side of the board to the other (Nix was in there for pushes when the rats got sacrificed to summon a RC) and kill Zoraida :)

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You will only be able to see into obscuring terrain not through it regardless of its size, so if the opponet is behind a 1" piece of Obscuring terrain, not even hunter will let you see it.

Hunter will allow the model to ignore cover penalties, so the negative flips what ever the source of the cover.

It doesn't increase line of sight into not terrain obscuring effects, meaning it can only see 3 Inches into those listed.

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^^ All correct, Hunter is cuddle against Stitched Togethers. Things like this you need to know before you declare all comer lists, they fall apart if you don't know the rules.

And to all you haters, rats CAN cover 30" - just don't start with both Rat Catchers on the board at the start. Move 10", Rat Catcher kill all rats, Move 10", summon a new rat catcher in front, kill all rats (and move forward 4" to keep voracious in range later), move 10" ;)

You need a lot of rats to make it effective, but I've used stuff like this to get from one side of the board to the other (Nix was in there for pushes when the rats got sacrificed to summon a RC) and kill Zoraida :)

Ahh the Cheese.

This game is falling out with me by the second.

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Pretty much everything in this game has a counter, you just have to know what the counter is, and it isn't always presented to you on the model. Often times simple tactics can be the solution.

This game isn't anywhere near as bad as some other games. It always looks ridiculous on paper, but it's actual effect can often be very downplayed, if you know what you are doing.

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And to all you haters, rats CAN cover 30" - just don't start with both Rat Catchers on the board at the start. Move 10", Rat Catcher kill all rats, Move 10", summon a new rat catcher in front, kill all rats (and move forward 4" to keep voracious in range later), move 10" ;)

You need a lot of rats to make it effective, but I've used stuff like this to get from one side of the board to the other (Nix was in there for pushes when the rats got sacrificed to summon a RC) and kill Zoraida :)

Yeah, but that's only really useful situationally.

And you know I'm an advocate for the 1 Rat Catcher, I have been since day one. :P

I'm a fan of moving slower and building up later on.

Unless someone has something that requires speed.

But then I can just take Night Terrors and call it a good day.

;D

Ahh the Cheese.

This game is falling out with me by the second.

The cheese? What cheese?

Do you mean balance?

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This game would be the most interesting to play, but I'd be quietly confident - especially with the speed of rats (They can theoretically move 30" in a single turn without dirty tricks to get them extra activations).

I'd like to play this one out :D

---

Hope the above helps with some perspective, and I'm not saying it's guaranteed to beat you - but I think it would.

You got me wanting to run my "Pig Boomerang" against the trapper spam list, would definately have to play smarter (due to from the shadows) but I think it could work (Von Schill is my main problem, have I complained about Masters/ Henchman having Slow to Die yet?)

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not seeing the problem with a sniper list. many things should be able to deck it quite happily - it just seems to lack the punch of most shooting lists.

heck Collodi can go 32" and still get a whole bunch of dolls into combat with you from turn 1 and lets not talk about the Dreamer!

the problem with just trappers is that so many things can scupper them and then you are left with just Von Schill trying to tie up all the loose ends by himself.

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As a side note, when seeing "over" terrain, we also have to take its shadow into consideration.

If we have a Trapper on Ht4 elevation (effectively making him Ht6 for the purpose of LoS), and he is seeing over Ht5 obscuring Aura, does the Aura cast 5" shade behind it?

I'd assume it does, but at the same time it is no Terrain (when it is no Terrain)...

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As a side note, when seeing "over" terrain, we also have to take its shadow into consideration.

If we have a Trapper on Ht4 elevation (effectively making him Ht6 for the purpose of LoS), and he is seeing over Ht5 obscuring Aura, does the Aura cast 5" shade behind it?

I'd assume it does, but at the same time it is no Terrain (when it is no Terrain)...

Though the aura has a volume it is not actual terrain so shouldn't follow the Shadow rules for terrain.

not seeing the problem with a sniper list. many things should be able to deck it quite happily - it just seems to lack the punch of most shooting lists.

The big difference here is that this sniper list can begin firing into your deployment zone on turn one without moving (so 12 shots a turn) unless you have access to the Guilds Watcher (and actually hired one). Additionally these snipers have a lot of survivability (in terms of Armor and free movement).

Edited by Omenbringer
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Though the aura has a volume it is not actual terrain so shouldn't follow the Shadow rules for terrain.

The shadow isn't tied in to Terrain directly. It is tied in to "flat elevations" (page 16).

When it comes to drawing LoS from elevations (adding elevation's Ht to model's Ht) the rules are specific it happens when a mini stands on the top of an elevated terrain.

When it comes to the Shadow, the "Terrain" isn't mentioned.

If an Aura is really a ht5 obscuring cylinder with flat top, then it does fulfill the requirements of "flat elevation", doesn't it?

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The shadow isn't tied in to Terrain directly. It is tied in to "flat elevations" (page 16).

When it comes to drawing LoS from elevations (adding elevation's Ht to model's Ht) the rules are specific it happens when a mini stands on the top of an elevated terrain.

Those rules you are referencing applying to flat elevations is "in addition to the standard elevated terrain rules above...", the Aura is not terrain so it doesn't apply. And additionally

When it comes to the Shadow, the "Terrain" isn't mentioned.

If an Aura is really a ht5 obscuring cylinder with flat top, then it does fulfill the requirements of "flat elevation", doesn't it?

That is all moot any way because none of the aura's have the elevated trait for terrain meaning the rules for elevated terrain dont apply (Rules manual page 59).

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Why is that cheese? It's called playing your crew properly and knowing how the models/interaction work. Don't start knocking me because your 6 trapper list is actually useless. Toys back in pram please

Not knocking you in any way. You are playing the game as it is presented. My complaint is that the game rules allow madness like this to exist. I never hate the player for the games faults. btw does this work even when the models are summoned and thus Slow?

You got me wanting to run my "Pig Boomerang" against the trapper spam list, would definately have to play smarter (due to from the shadows) but I think it could work (Von Schill is my main problem, have I complained about Masters/ Henchman having Slow to Die yet?)

Not yet, and yes you should.

As a side note, when seeing "over" terrain, we also have to take its shadow into consideration.

If we have a Trapper on Ht4 elevation (effectively making him Ht6 for the purpose of LoS), and he is seeing over Ht5 obscuring Aura, does the Aura cast 5" shade behind it?

I'd assume it does, but at the same time it is no Terrain (when it is no Terrain)...

The Shade rules. Had to re-read to make sure the game rules hadn't made another fail. Seems that if I am within 1" of an elevated edge, I shooting down, ignore the shadow. Which is cool for me and bad for you down on the ground.

Ok, after 6 pages of discussion, do we agree this is a spam list and capitalises only because of the repetitiveness of one strong point of one figure and generally if you take a stone to the scissors fight you will win?

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Very nice. I'll have to try playing this out to get my head around it.

Worth learning, especially if you can forward plan and put Nix where you're going to summon the Rat Catcher to get some free (0) pushes on the rats. I've only needed to do it once but it got me an 8-0 on the last turn against a Zoraida who'd Ravened 20" to the other side of the board.

Yeah, but that's only really useful situationally.

And you know I'm an advocate for the 1 Rat Catcher, I have been since day one. :P

I'm a fan of moving slower and building up later on.

Unless someone has something that requires speed.

But then I can just take Night Terrors and call it a good day.

;D

Agree 100%. In this instance it's just to tie his trappers up whilst Hamelin and buddies move in to give an ass whooping :D

Not knocking you in any way. You are playing the game as it is presented. My complaint is that the game rules allow madness like this to exist. I never hate the player for the games faults. btw does this work even when the models are summoned and thus Slow?

It isn't madness, it's the rules plain and simple - it's just some people don't notice the intricacies that exist to achieve things like that (take Sandwich, one of the most accomplished Hamelin players on here and he missed that one). Malifaux is about synergies and combinations more than ANYTHING else.

And whilst it would be awesome if I'd made such a schoolboy error and forgot about slow (stop - flying pig above you!) rats have an ability to push 5" as a (0) action. ;)

Ok, after 6 pages of discussion, do we agree this is a spam list and capitalises only because of the repetitiveness of one strong point of one figure and generally if you take a stone to the scissors fight you will win?

I have no idea what that means. If you're asking if we agree that list is any good - my answer is no.

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And whilst it would be awesome if I'd made such a schoolboy error and forgot about slow (stop - flying pig above you!) rats have an ability to push 5" as a (0) action. ;)

I have no idea what that means. If you're asking if we agree that list is any good - my answer is no.

I don't see no pig. :P

And yes if the list is any good is what I am asking. In another thread there was the complaint that the trappers are undercosted and overpowered and the reason Hans is le lamer. This discussion points out that they are not really OP when compared to the crowd just good at doing one thing well and if you don't plan or adjust for such a thing thats when you lose.

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Basically, Whilst the trapper is a good model, it is only good at certain things. Its probably not good enough to be an entire list and challenge good players.

They have a decent threat range, but not much damage to back up the threat range. And whilst lots of them can get the damage output, their range is often not much more that the threat range of several decent melee pieces. So if you don't kill it, you've probably got it in your face next turn.

Like many games, going for a skewed list can win games when your opponent isn't expecting it, but I wouldn't cry cheese at an all trapper list.

It will also do poorly in several scenareos. Destroy the Evidence, Line in the Sand and Treasure Hunt spring too mind as ones which will ruin your deployment stratergy.

Personally I wouldn't buy more than 2 trappers unless I was going to be playing over 50 point games reagually. And even then I wouldn't always use more than 2

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In another thread there was the complaint that the trappers are undercosted and overpowered and the reason Hans is le lamer. This discussion points out that they are not really OP when compared to the crowd just good at doing one thing well and if you don't plan or adjust for such a thing thats when you lose.

They are still very good and undercosted (like most of the friekorps when compared to similar models in their price range), just not as ridiculous as some other lists out there (The majority of the crews that have been mentioned to counter it would be considered "Top Tier"). The original intent of the thread was to develop counters to it (mission successful) however there are plenty of crews that have not been mentioned (because they would suffer against it). Also there are strategies and schemes that this list would easily accomplish and of course there are those that it would fail at.

The Trapper spam list is sort of like a Gremlin Gunline on steroids (without the ability to adapt mid game like the gunline).

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They are still very good and undercosted (like most of the friekorps when compared to similar models in their price range), just not as ridiculous as some other lists out there (The majority of the crews that have been mentioned to counter it would be considered "Top Tier"). The original intent of the thread was to develop counters to it (mission successful) however there are plenty of crews that have not been mentioned (because they would suffer against it). Also there are strategies and schemes that this list would easily accomplish and of course there are those that it would fail at.

The Trapper spam list is sort of like a Gremlin Gunline on steroids (without the ability to adapt mid game like the gunline).

that ability to adapt is what can make the gremlin gunline competetive but the trapper spam list a gimmick though.

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that ability to adapt is what can make the gremlin gunline competetive but the trapper spam list a gimmick though.

It is not really a gimmick and is actually competitive in a lot of situations (just not as broken as claimed). From the shadows & the Reposition trigger can give excellent board positioning for objective grabbing and key model assasinations.

Also the Trapper Spam doesn't risk killing friendlies on bad flips (meaning they dont have to use as many focused shots to hit targets and can really bring the pain if the group applies most of their attacks, 12 in this case, on a model). Additionally you dont have to worry as much about one shot kills (Armor, Magic Resistance, immunity to :blast:aura & :pulse plus built in auto-trigger and better Def, CB and Wd Stats).

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i dont see how being 12" and getting 3" moves after shots makes for good objective grabbing, either way its going to take you atleast 2 turns to get there. They hose armies that rely on blasts, but even with my belle centric force and them having armor, they're not exactly the most durable of models. They're an effective model, but spamming them as a list is effectively crap for everything but 1 or 2 strategies.

Malifaux seems rather resilient to gimmicks and "tech lists" ive found. The fact that you make your list after knowing the enemies faction, seen the table, objectives makes trixy list building kinda moot as you can customize your force every game.

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