Trapper - Anti-tech and Anti-anti-tech

[Q'iq'el]

Elevations come naturally with Terraclips, but they are by no means necessary I think. Good ht2~ht4 blocking terrain you can hide behind, some corridors (narrow walled streets etc), gates and doors that require interact to open - all add some twist to the gameplay.

3"x3" shouldn't be your upper limit though - especially woods, lakes, fields of severe terrain etc. - all those can easily be much bigger than that (just count them for several pieces). I find GW plastic wood absolutely great size for Malifaux.

In the end, if your opponents find it difficult to survive your shooting with that amount of Terrain, then it must be the case of not understanding the game fully yet. Maybe they move so that they expose their models (trying to get the most of their Wk range) or maybe they underestimate the value of small, cheap and fast models, that are poor fighters but allow the player to outactivate the enemy and which can easily negotiate the terrain on the way to grab the objectives.

Last but not least, new players are likely (from my experience) to underestimate the value of soft cover (especially provided by magic auras, which Trappers cannot ignore). Big part of survival in Malifaux resolves around forcing negative flips on your opponent - both on his attack and his damage flip. It's hard to think about movement and actions in these terms at first.

[Kael Hate]

...snip...

Thnx (and thnx all repliers)

I'm wondering if all this counter talk for Trappers shows Hans is even worse than I thought. lol.

[Zwergenkrieger]

I don´t think it´s a "counter talk for Trappers" at all, it´s just a counter talk for an all Trappers army.

Spam lists are hit or miss lists, meaning they either run exceptionally well or they work horribly. You´ll rarely get a balanced game if using spam lists. That´s what the thread is all about.

ZK

[magicpockets]

Just to chip in, I'd murder that list with Hamelin, Pandora or Zoradia*. And considering most good players achieve 7/8 VPs per game by limiting yourself to 4 it's an auto lose for you.

(*I can expand on this if you feel the need, but really the point is that it would fall over - not so much "how" it would fall over )

[Omenbringer]

35SS Scrap

1x Von Schill

6x Trappers

3x SS Pool

What beats it?

Using the actual amount of terrain suggested (perferably on the 4 per square foot side) in the rules manual with lots of tall enterable buildings (to maximize those shadows and limit LOS).

What can I do to stop it from being Beaten?

Preset the board with lots of shooting lanes and open areas and very little Ht and cover.

On a serious note though beware the guild Watcher (which will prevent you from setting up with From the Shadows). This list by the way is one of the reasons Trappers should be limited to Rare 2 (even with Armor and Hard to Wound, 12 shots on any model (even causing only weak damage) are going to drop it). I also think they should cost at least another SS per (to keep on par with the other "snipers" in the game).

[Sandwich]

Thanx for the ideas, I'll pass them on.

For the Note.

This isn't my normal list but an expression of the power level of Trapper vs Hans/Nino etc and what puts Trappers in balance with the rest of Malifaux.

I like Hans by theme but seems rather lame mechanically.

Personally I think the Perdita Gang can do everything this list can do but better, but then again, I'm mercenary and outcast at heart. Hate me because I'm not like you.

My Normal List

Schill

2x Trapper (probably swap one for a Gunslinger in the future because he is Rare 1 and thats close enough to Unique and shooty)

Hans

Laz

Jack

2x SS

The Trappers are a fairly integral part of Von Schills arsenal, they're heavy support assault with fairly reliable accuracy.

Unfortunately, they are limited by Terrain, low mobility and low surivability.

If, however, you augment 1-2 Trappers with, say, 2-3 Freikorpsmen, a specialist and the healer (God I'm terrible with names,) you then have a pretty much unstoppable, mobile death squad.

- - - - -

That list is crazy solid, but how effective has Hans been for you so far?

I've never managed to get him to do much for me. :/

[BlueStar86]

@Sandwich: it's a librarian. Also, the Trappers are incredibly mobile amongst the "sniper" models, they always trigger reposition.

[snord]

2 side comments here:

* If the opponent has a watcher in his crew, the effectiveness of a trappers list go down the hole as watchers prevent deployment outside a player's DZ.

* Regarding SS pool size, I see it can be interpreted both ways, but following the encounter steps on the RM, step 6 page 72 you determine the starting SS pool size and discard any SS over your maximum. Step 7, page 73, add 2 SS for each scheme you don't take. We always played that this can take you over your maximum starting SS pool as it happens after you hired your crew and discarded any SS over your maximum. Not saying it is a good/bad thing to exchange schemes for SS, just looking for clarification on the rules.

[Omenbringer]

* Regarding SS pool size, I see it can be interpreted both ways, but following the encounter steps on the RM, step 6 page 72 you determine the starting SS pool size and discard any SS over your maximum. Step 7, page 73, add 2 SS for each scheme you don't take. We always played that this can take you over your maximum starting SS pool as it happens after you hired your crew and discarded any SS over your maximum. Not saying it is a good/bad thing to exchange schemes for SS, just looking for clarification on the rules.

This question should be posted in it's proper place instead of buried in another thread. Repost it in the Rules forum and you'll probably get an answer out of a Rules Marshal (though I am pretty sure how this one will turn out).

[Kael Hate]

Just to chip in, I'd murder that list with Hamelin, Pandora or Zoradia*. And considering most good players achieve 7/8 VPs per game by limiting yourself to 4 it's an auto lose for you.

(*I can expand on this if you feel the need, but really the point is that it would fall over - not so much "how" it would fall over )

Actually I'd like it if you did elaborate.

Haven't played Zoradia yet. A copy was sold at the shop I play at so hopefully a game will come around.

As for Pandora, I have found the Trappers a Godsend. They can ping her from outside of her 12" range and being stubborn shrug off a lot more of her effects than most. Ruthless runs down Candy and Kade once you can hit their high Df but with sustained fire it does happen. Schill usually finishes of Woes and other weird things that pandora brings along.

As for Hammelin, Ignore the short Models, Shoot Hammelin in the head. If Hammelin Hides he can't do what he wants.

I really see Hammelin as if he can see you, you can see him and he shall be dead or at -4Ca. Nix Hammelins Key is rahter easy to pick off with Schill or Trappers too, his Ht2 means le rats don't hold the bullets back.

These being my experiences so far. Good chance my group doesn't know the tricks you pros do. I can't learn unless they come to light. Tell me all.

[Kael Hate]

Using the actual amount of terrain suggested (perferably on the 4 per square foot side) in the rules manual with lots of tall enterable buildings (to maximize those shadows and limit LOS).

We do use the Manuals suggested terrain rules. Most of the time it benefits me more because of severe terrain. We use the Random location and Items listed. Last game for example was Mountains. The 3'x3' board was covered with croppings of up to 4" high, and a space no more than 2" between peices. in 2 sections we had thick trees and the dead center had a Bog where the Treasure objective just happened to be in the middle of. Pandora had to walk a her group along what I call Traffic lanes or be at less than half the speed Schill and a Trapper were heading to the Treasure. The Deployment zone was corners so instead of using out of shadows that could not find a good perch, I left them in the DZ and then ran them up to a spot on the first turn before Pandora's flunkies could come into range. Shooting everything he was left to activate, soon he was left with Pandora vs a near full team.

Preset the board with lots of shooting lanes and open areas and very little Ht and cover.

We frown on this. If one player sets the board we let the other pick the table edge/ deployment zone. I guess its a fair play rollover from other Skirmish games.

One thing I have noticed is that people think Ht makes you safer. I've found that to not to always be so. The more Ht around, the more perches a trapper can use to see over obstacles. The more cover you can hide behind the more cover you have to waste time walking around.

On a serious note though beware the guild Watcher (which will prevent you from setting up with From the Shadows).

I have mentioned him to Guild Players. Never seen it played yet. Guess peeps don't want to waste 3ss and the purchase of a fig just to counter one opponent. I first saw the watcher as a waste of 3ss. I'd jut ignore it to kill real figs. Being that it isn't insignificant means it can take objectives quickly. Only 4 Wd Df 5, a Trapper should kill it easy enough.

This list by the way is one of the reasons Trappers should be limited to Rare 2 (even with Armor and Hard to Wound, 12 shots on any model (even causing only weak damage) are going to drop it). I also think they should cost at least another SS per (to keep on par with the other "snipers" in the game).

Nino holds his own.

Hans not so much.

Rami (see Nino+Reckless)

The min/max game exists for others too.

Somer, 13 Grems, 4 Skeetas reminds me of Mordheims Skaven Min/Max Slingers List. Most gangs open with a few heroes and 8 models max. Skaven started with a full 6 heros, and the max 25 models all with Slings that can fire twice a turn. Isn't strong, but its Quantity over Quality and he who rolls the most dice wins.

[Kael Hate]

The Trappers are a fairly integral part of Von Schills arsenal, they're heavy support assault with fairly reliable accuracy.

Unfortunately, they are limited by Terrain, low mobility and low surivability.

If, however, you augment 1-2 Trappers with, say, 2-3 Freikorpsmen, a specialist and the healer (God I'm terrible with names,) you then have a pretty much unstoppable, mobile death squad.

I'd beg to differ. Trappers are better than the other Freikorps. Mostly I see them as handbrakes to the Trapper.

2x Trappers are easily superior to 3x Korpsmen. Korpsmen are scouts but Trappers really get at least one free turn with Out of shadows and can use guide to accelerate your allies.

- - - - -

That list is crazy solid, but how effective has Hans been for you so far?

I've never managed to get him to do much for me. :/

Hans looks cool, Cool in theme, but anyone who has played against him once before never suffers him again and as such he is mostly an ineffective trapper/paperweight.

I'd like to rewrite him.

[Omenbringer]

Actually I'd like it if you did elaborate.

Haven't played Zoradia yet. A copy was sold at the shop I play at so hopefully a game will come around.

Conduit from Voodoo Doll cast Obey, then hide next to Zoraida (already hiding), she then casts Obey at a then creates a new Voodoo Doll who conduits another Trapper and casts Obey a third time. Each Obey targets the Wounded Trappers. Each casting can benefit from Soulstones to increase the chances of success. The Trapper's that are conduited will have Poison 2 (that ignores their Armor and should finish them off).

If the Zoraida player has a Doppleganger then he can do this a 4th time.

Additionally your Trappers are going to be wasting a lot of AP on focused shots to avoid the flip from her Proper Manners ability.

As for Hammelin, Ignore the short Models, Shoot Hammelin in the head. If Hammelin Hides he can't do what he wants.

I really see Hammelin as if he can see you, you can see him and he shall be dead or at -4Ca. Nix Hammelins Key is rahter easy to pick off with Schill or Trappers too, his Ht2 means le rats don't hold the bullets back.

So how are you getting around the Rats easily making you Insignificant (and unable to target Hamelin) and actually doing 6 wounds to Nix in one turn (given that he has spirit halving all non-magical damage and easy access to healing)?

Edited November 28, 2011 by Omenbringer

[Omenbringer]

One thing I have noticed is that people think Ht makes you safer. I've found that to not to always be so. The more Ht around, the more perches a trapper can use to see over obstacles. The more cover you can hide behind the more cover you have to waste time walking around.

Are you familiar with the Shadow Rules from page 16? This is why Ht is an advantage in this game, your perched Trappers aren't going to be able to shoot if I hug the buildings while moving.

[Kael Hate]

Are you familiar with the Shadow Rules from page 16? This is why Ht is an advantage in this game, your perched Trappers aren't going to be able to shoot if I hug the buildings while moving.

Nothing real special there. It just details angle of incidence against a wall. It doesn't help if I'm shooting down a lane to hit you or have a crossfire from another angle.

If I'm on a roof and you are at the wall below me there is the shadow effect. (In Reality, I can probably fire down on you and am covered from your return fire). I put a second trapper looking lateral to the shadow and your hiding spot is gone.

[Omenbringer]

Nothing real special there. It just details angle of incidence against a wall. It doesn't help if I'm shooting down a lane to hit you or have a crossfire from another angle.

It must be nice to have opponents that walk into your firing lanes without using Defensive Stance or running from cover to cover.

If I'm on a roof and you are at the wall below me there is the shadow effect. (In Reality, I can probably fire down on you and am covered from your return fire). I put a second trapper looking lateral to the shadow and your hiding spot is gone.

From experience I can say you are really exposed when leaning over a roof top to fire upon someone directly below you (more then enough to worry about return fire) though you may have the element of surprise.

[BlueStar86]

Grom experience I can say you are really exposed when leaning over a roof top to fire upon someone directly below you (more then enough to worry about return fire) though you may have the element of surprise.

Not to mention they are really close at that point, which means you might miss if they suddenly move quickly.

[Kael Hate]

It must be nice to have opponents that walk into your firing lanes without using Defensive Stance or running from cover to cover.

Come to think about it, no, I'd like to evolve and learn better game. Not practice Duck in a barrel.

[magicpockets]

Actually I'd like it if you did elaborate.

Haven't played Zoradia yet. A copy was sold at the shop I play at so hopefully a game will come around.

Five things would help -

1. Conduit has no range and could prove very difficult for you to deal with (obeying trappers to kill each other, block lines of sight or move out of LOS)

2. She has a lot of very good ranged options (Rami, Raphael, Gunsmiths) to draw your immediate fire but with cover from Stitched Togethers ( to hit so you can never cheat)

3. Slurids get cover against ranged attacks and with (0) leap can be upon you quicker than you'd think (sure they're beasts but I dont think you'd get many shots off on them)

4. Bad JuJu could very quickly cause you problems buy deploying and being in Melee almost straight away (ideally with multiple trappers), landslide causes slow which could be useful, and sure you'll kill him - but he just comes back The point here is to tie you up/limit your fire power whilst other stuff closes in

5. Lastly I'd likely sit back with Z making Wicked Dolls (3 or so) and then Raven her into combat (20" move range) with you and teleport those Wicked Dolls in - either in combat or with Malice they're going to cause you a world of pain.

As for Pandora, I have found the Trappers a Godsend. They can ping her from outside of her 12" range and being stubborn shrug off a lot more of her effects than most. Ruthless runs down Candy and Kade once you can hit their high Df but with sustained fire it does happen. Schill usually finishes of Woes and other weird things that pandora brings along.

My typical 34ss Pandora list consists of Pandora (8ss), JackDaw, Doppleganger, 2x Sorrows, Poltergeist and Stitched Together.

In essence Jack is there to shut you down, the Stitched to provide cover and Pandora quickly starts doing 4 wounds per failed WP test (and is bumped to WP 8). Every time I've played against Von Schill he seems to go down very quickly with this list.

As for Hammelin, Ignore the short Models, Shoot Hammelin in the head. If Hammelin Hides he can't do what he wants.

I really see Hammelin as if he can see you, you can see him and he shall be dead or at -4Ca. Nix Hammelins Key is rahter easy to pick off with Schill or Trappers too, his Ht2 means le rats don't hold the bullets back.

First, rats don't block LOS to anything (special rule) so don't worry about them.

I think this game would just come down to how well Hamelin was played and how quickly his swarm got into melee. Again it's about limiting your firing lanes and tying up models to stop them shooting (i.e. a couple of Night Terrors quickly into melee to tie you up whilst Hamelin/Nix/Rats move up the board).

This game would be the most interesting to play, but I'd be quietly confident - especially with the speed of rats (They can theoretically move 30" in a single turn without dirty tricks to get them extra activations).

I'd like to play this one out

---

Hope the above helps with some perspective, and I'm not saying it's guaranteed to beat you - but I think it would.

[Kael Hate]

This game would be the most interesting to play, but I'd be quietly confident - especially with the speed of rats (They can theoretically move 30" in a single turn without dirty tricks to get them extra activations).

How does a rat cover 30" in a turn?

People keep quoting cover and such. Trappers have the Hunter skill so ignore Cover penalties and effects that Stitched together and Silurids use. Unless its blocked there is no neg. If I'm missing something let me know.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Kael Hate

[Q'iq'el]

Trappers have the Hunter skill so ignore Cover penalties and effects that Stitched together and Silurids use.

Trappers ignore obscuring characteristic only if it is Terrain. Many of such effects are not classified as Terrain - Rasputina's, Nicodem's, Crooligans'. Stitched Together's Creepy Fog also isn't terrain - Trapper cannot ignore it.

This is where Hans comes in. Hans Googles ignore the magic effects too (and are superior to Hunter in this aspect).

Edited November 28, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Twisted Metal]

Trappers have the Hunter skill so ignore Cover penalties and effects that Stitched together and Silurids use.

In addition hunter allows you to see 6 inches into obscuring terrain, it does not allow you to see through obscuring terrain.

[Sandwich]

They really couldn't cover 30".

The Rat Catchers are going to move a maximum of 8" from the same starting point.

Your Rats are capable of moving up to like 22" maximum but that'd just be too fast to be effective.

Although I've seen Rat rushes pay off immensely on high priority models.

And with such a low model count on the enemy team, I don't see a loss of any rats in the long run.

So maximum range is probably a good strategy in a game like this.

I've still slaughtered VS crews easy with the Rat Swarm.

Especially if you take nothing but Trappers, you'll never kill the Rat Catchers.

Their Armor +2 will reduce almost all incoming damage to 1, and (0)Slaughter Rats will reliably heal them to full every activation.

The swarm would obviously grow incredibly slow because you've only got 7 additional models to pump up your crew.

Von Schill would probably be incredibly dangerous because he can't be locked down, but I'm confident Hamelin could deal with him alone.

I'd use the swarm more to spread insignificant than anything else to just absolutely deny any VP at all.

It'd be a slow game versus me but I'm pretty certain that such a limited crew wouldn't be able to do very much versus a good Hamelin, especially Magicpockets.

[Kael Hate]

Trappers ignore obscuring characteristic only if it is Terrain. Many of such effects are not classified as Terrain - Rasputina's' date=' Nicodem's, Crooligans'. Stitched Together's [b']Creepy Fog also isn't terrain - Trapper cannot ignore it.

This is where Hans comes in. Hans Googles ignore the magic effects too (and are superior to Hunter in this aspect).

Hunter doesn't say ignores trerrain, it says it ignores Cover modifiers. The Fog is Obscuring, which generates Cover modifiers, and Silurids Chameleon says its affected by Soft Cover.

Stiched Togethers ability creates a 8"+30mm Diameter Ht5 Obscuring Feature. If the Trapper is on Ht3+ or Higher ground or I can draw a line from any edge I can shoot through it without penalty.

The Differences for Hans is that Goggles ignores non-cover effects such as Bully if Hans becomes Insignificant, and Sniper Shoots through rather than to the limit of Obscuring and Blocking features.

Googles and Hunter are not compareable, whereas Sniper is a superior version of Hunter.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Kael Hate

[Q'iq'el]

Unless I remember it really wrong, there's been a ruling confirming Hunter applies only to Cover gained from Terrain. I'll try to look for it.