magicpockets Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Any advice would be great, I'll update this thread over the next few days with thoughts, plans and questions and hopefully get a crew pulled together. Before we start though, all of my crews are "burning couch crews" (Pandora, Hamelin, Zoraida) which people hate playing against - is Levi more of the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAH Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 First step - Buy the boxed set, a Desolation Engine, and a pack of Hollow Waifs. I don't think Leveticus is hated near as much as Hamelin. He's a strong master, but tricky to use to his full potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Before we start though, all of my crews are "burning couch crews" (Pandora, Hamelin, Zoraida) which people hate playing against - is Levi more of the same? It depends on your group. I know that everyone I play with always groans, but not from frustration. They just recognize his power. The thing with Leve is that his weaknesses are very apparent. There are clear ways to deal with him and basically every crew has the ability to deal with him. The groans mostly come from his ability to come back, his lack of damage flips, and his nigh-unresistable casting. But really, it's all just in the perspective of the people you're playing against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianMills Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 How many abominations do you think is required in the crew? Having won ashs and dust and having 2 of the 4 riders I am also looking at starting Levi in the New Year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucket Monkey Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Id say at least 6 steampunk abominations. I've only had 4 and in the 3 games I've played with levi so far and from what else I've seen its useful to have more. Depend what sort of build you are going for, as for a starting point id agree with GAH, as this is what I started with and its good to learn and start from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromorph Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Welcome to Levi, Magic . For purchases I would recommend the following, or bits and pieces thereof... 1-2 more packs of SPAs A pack of waifs and canine remains, though I'm sure you have those. Ashes and Dust Lazarus when he is released. Any and all riders, though I'm still not convinced how good his avatar is. A guardian. A watcher. Jack Daw Soulstone Miner Arachnid Swarm. There are more, but those are a great start. After you've played a few games, if you want any advice on tactics, just send me a PM, I might actually be able to give YOU some tips. For once . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck Dog Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Levi is good, but not unbeatable - taking out him and both Waifs in a turn can be tricky, but certainly isn't impossible, and some crews such as Lilith and The Dreamer can manage it fairly easily. He is a mean S.O.B, but I like to think that he is an interesting challenge to play agaisnt rather than like pulling teeth. For me the essentials are : Levi's Box Additional Blister of Waifs Desolation Engine Canine Remains Necropunks Then play a few games and see how you get on. I would normally consider a big hitter such as The Peacekeeper or Ryle, but I think Lazarus is going to make them redundant. I also like Bete Noir - Levi can give her an additional Crow, which makes her down right nasty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisenhorn Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 I think everyone starts their Levi crew with the four SPA, desi engine, waifs and canine remains. That seems like the go to list to start and there is nothing wrong with that list. As you learn the master you will develop your own play style with him and you will then tailor your crew to that play style. Levi has so many choices that you can find a model for almost every situation. Of course this lead to what Karn often calls Analysis Paralysis. Right now I am normally running my Levi crews with two SPA to start and count on making the other two during the game. I have also been using rotten belles to go effect and the dead rider is almost always the first model in the crew. Molly even makes it into my crew from time to time. She has some excellent debuffs, can copy unnatural wasting, and can further support the belles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisted Metal Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 Before we start though, all of my crews are "burning couch crews" (Pandora, Hamelin, Zoraida) which people hate playing against - is Levi more of the same? If no one in your area has played against Levi he will take them for surprise. He can be incredibly lethal. For instance I have taken down Von Schill in a single activation with my opponent still sitting on most of his SS cash. My opponent's face turn white when he failed the final to resist Entropic Transformation and Von Badass was sacrificed as opposed to being killed. (No slow to die action) In terms of models required for the crew the the other posters have mentioned the basic starter models. The waifs and desolation engine are are an absolute must. You can add the canine remains for the extra waif but depending one who im playing against it isn't always needed. Necro Punks are great for grabbing objectives and have a double purpose of being a delivery system for kill joy if you choose to use him. Other great choices for Levi are, Bete, Arachnid Swarms, Watchers, ashes and dust, jack daw, rotten belles, and teddy. Even the guild hunter be useful as he is the cheapest scrap around. I still am not sold on the guardian. I think he is far to expensive to sit back an baby sit a waif. Everyone claims that he is a great defense against the Austringer but in reality better model placement is far most cost effective. For one more SS you can by the Hooded rider, set him in night, and then race back there and kill the Austringer. Models to look for that haven't been released yet include the Warden, Lazarus, and my favorite from the new book the Pale Rider. Speaking of riders... As of late I have been including on average two riders in my lists and it has been surprisingly effective. I always include the dead rider as he greatly boosts Levi's speed. (Why pay two wounds to move three inches when you can pay three wounds to move 10 - 11 inches). I also believe that the riders are essential to the future of Levi's game play with his avatar. Also I think his avatar is far more effective then people are currently giving it credit and if I use my current lists as proof a rider focused list IS NOT a hindrance to his play style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted November 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the ideas/tips everyone. Spent most of the night reading three books worth of models and my head nearly imploded Few questions - 1) How reliant is he on Soulstones? 2) Is there anything that stops him taking Collodi as a henchman? 3) Am I remembering right that the Large Steampunk Arachnid is now on a 50mm base? (EDIT: Found this, yes it is) 4) In reality how easy/hard is it to get the spells off (Levi and Alice) which turn things into SPAs? Seems like you need a lot of :tomes Thanks everyone. Edited November 14, 2011 by magicpockets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck Dog Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 1.) Not overly reliant, its nice to have a couple on hand to force a spell through (especially when you are trying to warp an opposing master into an SPA J), or as a last resort to keep him alive if both Hollow Waifs have been taken out. I tend to run him with 2 / 3 soulstones, but there have been games when I haven’t touched them at all. 2.) Nothing that I am aware of, apart from due to the Special Forces hiring restrictions it will stop you from taking Ryle, Soulstone Miner, Rogue Necromancy etc. 3.) Pass :/ 4.) Fairly easy actually. Due to dual focus, Levi can chose between a Crow and a Tomb as the associated suit for each spell. And through Impressionable Rusty gets to use Levi’s CA and all abilities affecting his CA J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted November 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 Okay, how about this for a 35ss list? Leveticus (3ss Cache) Rusty Alice - 8ss Lazarus - 8ss JackDaw - 9ss Large SPA - 5ss (kill for 3x scrap to make 3x SPAs) Canine Remains - 2ss (kill for a corpse counter for 2nd Hollow Waif) May be a bit low on SS? (I very rarely play a game with any master with less than 8ss) Also will be card dependant to summon the 4x models I'm getting counters for. Any comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 Your hardest part is probably killing the large arachnid. To cast the 4 spells to make 3 steampunk abominations and 1 waif, you will just need 4 7s. Between your hand, the flips and Deaths lessons, that shouldn't be a problem. Problem is that he can only cast Entropic transformation twice a turn, since he can't kill himself with it, and Alyce takes cards out your hand as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted November 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 (edited) Plan was to melee the Large SPA with Levi leaving 2ap for entropic transformation - would that work? Also I could take a Warden rather than Lazarus to put Levi on 6ss in his pocket - what do you think? Edited November 14, 2011 by magicpockets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 That would work, using a severe card from your hand (or Deaths lessons). Bonus if you get to use Spare parts as well. You might have to be disgarding cards from hand to allow you to cheat. I had started my planning on getting 3 summons from him, till I realised I couldn't, and forgot to free up that AP. Currently I have no clue as to the relative values of Lazarus vs Warden, they both look like good models. On the whole, I reckon that You've got a good chance of completing what you want on Turn 1 about 80% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck Dog Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 Your hardest part is probably killing the large arachnid. To cast the 4 spells to make 3 steampunk abominations and 1 waif, you will just need 4 7s. Between your hand, the flips and Deaths lessons, that shouldn't be a problem. Problem is that he can only cast Entropic transformation twice a turn, since he can't kill himself with it, and Alyce takes cards out your hand as well. Don't forget that Waifs can cast Levi's spells too - although you will need a decent card and then have to sacrifice them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromorph Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 (edited) Yeah that would work. 3ss is about perfect for him, he really doesn't use them much except to get off really important casts. Killing a large spider for 3 scraps is a good tactic, and if you had another construct in there you could use them to assimilate something permanently for Lazarus, but it depends on the list. That list is pretty solid though, I have yet to try Lazarus with him, but he seems promising. A warden without support is kinda iffy with levi. One piece of advice I can give is that all of his minions are a distraction for levi...not literally, but you need stand alone minions that can do work without much synergy or support. The only units with any true synergy are ashes, SPAs, Desi, alyce, and anything that he can give a crow to for the trigger like ss miners. Other than that, the models you take will be for.a specific purpose that can work on their own...doing the most to your enemy to draw attention to themselves so levi can nuke away unmolested. Edited November 14, 2011 by Necromorph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisenhorn Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 How reliant is he on Soulstones? It varies from game to game but most of the time he can get by with 3 – 5 stone. I have played game with two stones and have done just fine. I have also played games with five and haven’t needed to use any throughout the game. If you plan on running him with a henchmen you might want to run slightly more as Levi isn’t a terribly good support master Is there anything that stops him taking Collodi as a henchman? Nope he can take both Collodi and Molly Am I remembering right that the Large Steampunk Arachnid is now on a 50mm base? (EDIT: Found this, yes it is) I never considered it because my book states its on a 40mm and I don’t currently own one. Anyway if you take the Large spider make sure that you take it for more than just its scrap. If it dies the scrap pile is nice to make the occasional SPA but DO NOT take it for the sole purpose of making cheap SPA’s. There are actually several reasons for this. First every one of Levi’s AP are precious and a potential death blow to one of your opponents models. Every spell being cast to kill your own model is one less unnatural wasting cast at your opponent. Second the spell which turns scrap into SPA is Entropic Transformation. Although the spell is easy enough to get off it does inflict 3 wds on Levi per cast. Since Levi only has 8wds you will only be able to get the spell of twice per turn. You really do not want to take Levi out of the game for two turns to just make 4 SPA’s. I think the best way to do it is to take two SPA to start the game with. Blitz Levi up field, hit something with unnatural wasting and then turn them into an SPA with entropic transformation and place it with the original two. Its important to use ET if you can because the SPA is just summoned whereas Necrotic Unmaking summons it into base contact of the killed model. Run the large spider up field and start killing stuff. If it dies during the game and drops the scrap partly up field that is ok to. That scrap pile can then be used to make some additional SPA’s in mid to late game when your original Desolation Engine has died and you have two SPA remaining. In reality how easy/hard is it to get the spells off (Levi and Alice) which turn things into SPAs? Seems like you need a lot of Tomes Levi can get them off fairly easy. The key is to get them to go off where your opponent has no chance to resist. Trust me your opponent will very quickly realize the potency of his spell and will throw everything at them to resist them. In general I think he has more of a dependency on crows than tomes but the ability to choose which suit he casts with helps him a great deal. Also don’t forget about death lessons and disciplined caster. When used together these two abilities can provide Levi with a decent amount of card manipulation. Don't forget that Waifs can cast Levi's spells too - although you will need a decent card and then have to sacrifice them. The waif cannot cast Entropic Transformation. It only has three wounds and you cannot reduce your wounds to 0 with that spell. I would say that 99% of the time I use the waif to either double walk into a better position or if I’m in range cast Tap Soul. Remember that the Waif has EMPTY BEING to cast Levi’s spell and not MAGICAL EXTENSION. The difference between them is that after using empty being the waif is sacrificed and im not to keen on leaving Levi any more vulnerable than he needs to be. For me the hardest part of learning Levi was the resource management of his wounds. You really kind of have to plan his whole turn out ahead of time and calculate the amount of wounds he will take throughout that turn. You also want to have a backup plan to kill off Levi if you have to. There is nothing that sucks more than to leave Levi living and to start the next turn with no cards in your hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianMills Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Is a 35ss to low to include Ashs and Dust I have been looking at the following list but it only leaves a 2ss pool Ashes and Dust Rusty Alyce 4 x Steampunk Abomination Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisted Metal Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Is a 35ss to low to include Ashs and Dust I have been looking at the following list but it only leaves a 2ss pool Ashes and Dust Rusty Alyce 4 x Steampunk Abomination In general I think 40ss is a more practical size game for A&D with 35 being the lowest I would recommend. Even then your kind of going to have a rough game because you will be out activated almost every turn. At 35ss your list could work but I would prefer to run 2 Necro Punks and a Remains instead of Alyce. If you want to include Alyce then drop two SPA for the Punks. Levi can make two SPA in no time and if your lucky Alyce can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted November 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 ^^ On this, is Alyce an auto include or not so much any more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAH Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 I wouldn't say she's an auto-include, but personally I would include her unless I had a definite plan for replacing her. If I was going for avatar form and was bringing all the riders, or was using Ashes and Dust at 35 ss, I don't think I would bring her. Otherwise I would bring her since she's very useful to Leveticus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromorph Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Yeah I wouldn't say auto include, but maybe like 70-80% of lists...at least I use her about that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 I think it also comes down to your playstyle. It's true that she can help Leve immensely, but so can many models. The real problem isn't what is auto-include, but how many models you realize you might want to use at some time given a certain strat/scheme combo... And then you've bought everything there is to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisted Metal Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) The card advantage Alyce give is nice but I have found that beyond the first turn Levi is to far away to benefit from it. If I wanted him in range for the card advantage one of two things have to happen. Alyce either has to spend AP to walk up to where Levi intends to Spawn Levi (if she does she is not shooting) or I have to position a waif near her which again telegraphs my intended spawn point. Edited November 16, 2011 by Twisted Metal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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