Interaction of Hamelin's Indicriminant Void and the Gremlin Taxidermist's Dud?

[Omenbringer]

While assisting a new Some'r Player with developing his crew in this thread here relevant part is in post 24. I stumbled upon an interesting interaction that I would like to confirm.

Essentialy it is a timing question:

Hamelin's Indiscriminant Void occurs during the Start Closing Phase.

The Gremlin Taxedermist's Dud? occurs during the End Closing Phase.

If Hamelin is killed by exploding Stuffed Piglet's using Bacon Bomb! via the Taxidermists Dud? ability during the End Closing phase what happens to Hamelin?

My guess is that he would in fact die since the portion of the turn that would allow him to benefit from Indiscriminant Void has passed yet the turn has not ended until after the Dud? action has completed (and hopefully killed him) so he wouldn't be able to come back in the next turn becasue he died in the current turn.

Additionally would this work against Leveticus as well?

[Stern]

yes Hamelin would die...

not sure about levi as i think the timings are a bit different but don't take my word on that, be worth checking the exact timings

[Omenbringer]

Leveticus might be a little different because Eternally Shackled doesn't specify which portion of the Closing Phase it occurs in, only that he must sacrifice a Hollow Waif during the Closing Phase to use it.

The Shackled ability on the Hollow Waifs, however does specifiy that it occurs during the End Closing Phase (implying that Leveticus has to use Eternally Shackled prior to that portion of the Closing phase to allow the Hollow Waifs to use Shackled).

Not sure how this one would play out since Dud? and Shackled would occur simultaneously during the End Closing Phase.

[Mr_Smigs]

well, there is no active player (old ruling, active player goes first)

so...

Dud? and Shackled resolve at once,

since the Master cannot exist in duplicate on the table,

he can't summon (he's still being killed in the end closing)

so he dies.

[GAH]

He would still come back in the next closing phase as long as there is still a Hollow Waif on the board.

[Necromorph]

Idk, i think I'm the only one reading that differently. I'd have to check the wording on dud, but I though levi's abilities were a big reason why the start and end closing phase were defined as such. Levi comes back during the closing phase (at any point before the end), saccing the waifs and then resummoning them during the end.

Ok...so despite all that rant, the point is to show my stance on hamelin. The steps.to the closing phase are there for a reason. He is summoned back to his stolen at the start closing phase, dud would apply later, in the end closing phase, after hamelin was already placed on the table. Maybe I'm missing some important part of dud! Or I'm missing some.small print in the rules manual.

[Scurry]

page 32 of the rules manual says the closing phase goes in activation order so if the gremlin player went first levi would come back

[Mr_Smigs]

page 32 of the rules manual says the closing phase goes in activation order so if the gremlin player went first levi would come back

neat. good catch.

and if the gremlin player was second...

well Eternally Shackled does read:

If this model is killed or sacrificed during the turn, during

the Closing Phase sacrifice a friendly Hollow Waif and Place this model into

base contact with that model before it leaves play, then sacrifice all other

friendly Hollow Waifs in play. Discard your Hand and draw up to your Crew’s

Maximum Hand Size.

During the turn. Closing phase ends, old man dies.

[Adran]

neat. good catch.

and if the gremlin player was second...

well Eternally Shackled does read:

During the turn. Closing phase ends, old man dies.

But whilst we're still in the closing phase I can still sacrifice a waif to put him into play surely.

Old man lives

[Mr_Smigs]

But whilst we're still in the closing phase I can still sacrifice a waif to put him into play surely.

Old man lives

not if the gremlins were second in activation, as your chance to sacrifice the waif would have already passed.

as "closing phase" options go in activation order (noted earlier)

it would go:

1. Levi player activates first....

2. gremlin player activates second...

leading to closing phase

1. Levi player has chance to sacrifice to summon levi... (can't, levi is still alive)

2. gremlin player kills levi...

3. turn ends.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Mr_Smigs

[Dolomyte]

not if the gremlins were second in activation, as your chance to sacrifice the waif would have already passed.

as "closing phase" options go in activation order (noted earlier)

it would go:

1. Levi player activates first....

2. gremlin player activates second...

leading to closing phase

1. Levi player has chance to sacrifice to summon levi... (can't, levi is still alive)

2. gremlin player kills levi...

3. turn ends.

I agree with Smigs assessment

[Necromorph]

Good catch. Makes sense now. It has never been an issue where we've had to look into the closing phase like that. Didn't know that you resolved effects in activation order....usually there isn't a conflict of abilities like that.

Good to know though.

[dakrulz55]

well dont forget about levi's ability unstable necromancy killing himself during the closing phase as well. so unless you use the pig bomb to kill a waif your not killing levi, but if you do kill levi your just doing him a favor

[mindwarpusa]

Nope, done with the gremlin player going second in activations the exploding pigs going off with enough damage will kill him for good no matter what. His ability unstable necromancy gives him a wd so unless it kills him all the way, it will only help the gremlin player.

Edited October 25, 2011 by mindwarpusa

[Omenbringer]

So are we in agreement that this could kill Hamelin for ever? Though resource intensive (in Soulstones and more then likely Control Cards) it at least provides a chance for my prefered crew to eliminate him (and geting rid of him pulls his crews teath quite a bit).

Levi of course is a bit of a problem because he doesn't specify an exact portion of the Closing phase for his shenanigans. (not so concerned about him since at least I can target him).

[karn987]

I actually don't think this would kill either of them for good. Neither of the abilities state it has to be the closing phase of the same turn so I really don't see this stopping either of them. The wording doesn't support it having to be the Closing Phase of the turn he dies I believe.

If they are already beyond the specificied time, they would just wait for the next time it comes up. So for Hamelin's, he would wait for the next Start Closing Phase and then he would be right back. There was a ruling on this for Leveticus a looonnnggg time ago (the old link I have is dead, maybe archived now?) and it went the same way, he would just come back during the next applicable time (ie the Closing Phase) as long as he still met the conditions (ie having Waifs).

So I don't think this is settled sadly and while I would love for it to be a good way to rid us of Hamelin, I don't think it works. What wording do you think forces it to be on the same turn? I at least don't see it as being read that way.

Edited October 25, 2011 by karn987

[Hatchethead]

So I don't think this is settled sadly and while I would love for it to be a good way to rid us of Hamelin, I don't think it works. What wording do you think forces it to be on the same turn? I at least don't see it as being read that way.

I don't think it's worded that way, it seems to be an assumption people are making. It's one I would make. Buried is the only ability I've seen that allows a model to ignore the framework of the turn sequence while remaining in an out of play state.

So it is your contention that Hamelin being dead has a similar effect to him being Buried? He's not removed from the game, he just chills out of play until a certain condition is met? I've always assumed that once a model is deemed "killed", assuming no conditions exist to reverse the condition immediately, said model is then officially, irreversibly "killed" and removed from the game.

[karn987]

I don't think it's worded that way, it seems to be an assumption people are making. It's one I would make. Buried is the only ability I've seen that allows a model to ignore the framework of the turn sequence while remaining in an out of play state.

So it is your contention that Hamelin being dead has a similar effect to him being Buried? He's not removed from the game, he just chills out of play until a certain condition is met? I've always assumed that once a model is deemed "killed", assuming no conditions exist to reverse the condition immediately, said model is then officially, irreversibly "killed" and removed from the game.

This could lead to very sticky and irrelivant discussion and I really want to avoid that.

I'm simply talking about the wording on of these abilities and the rules. If what your saying is true, neither could ever come back and that is obviously not the case.

My contention is, I think its being read wrong. Straight from the Errata, emphasis mine:

'If this model is killed or sacrificed during the turn, at the start of the Start Close Phase, Place a Hamelin, the Plagued into base contact with a friendly The Stolen, then sacrifice that model. Hamelin receives -4 Ca until the end of the Encounter.'

The Underline is really the kicker for this whole thing and the bold is the whole relivant section of the rule.

"during the turn" seems like a bit of strange wording to me, but primarily it seems to be there to deal with any out of turn effects (if there ever were to be any?).

The "at the start of the Start Close Phase" does not specify it has to be Close Phase of the turn he died. It simply states this: At time x, do y. Time x is the start Close Phase but there is no qualifier on this stating it must be the Start Close Phase of the turn he died. So it would just be the next time he can meet this time which would be the next turn. Unless the bold only part was to be this and in that case it isn't really clear (to easy to read another way basically). See what I'm saying?

[Hatchethead]

The word "immediately" was used it haste. I meant to say, "I've always assumed that once a model is deemed 'killed', assuming no Talents/Spells/effects exist to reverse the condition within the predefined turn phase, said model is then officially, irreversibly 'killed' and removed from the game."

I don't believe these specialized resurrection abilities are meant to extend beyond the turn the model is killed. But that's only an assumption. I could start nitpicking at the section of the errata you quoted, "'If this model is killed or sacrificed during THE turn..." and insist that "the" indicates the turn in question and not simply "a turn", but like you said: sticky and pointless.

... I see no reason to discuss it further, as only an official Wyrdo could verify the intention either way. Plus, I have nothing invested in this particular discussion. There are no Leveticus nor Hamelin players in my local meta, it's no skin off my nose how it works, regardless.

[karn987]

The word "immediately" was used it haste. I meant to say, "I've always assumed that once a model is deemed 'killed', assuming no Talents/Spells/effects exist to reverse the condition within the predefined turn phase, said model is then officially, irreversibly 'killed' and removed from the game."

I don't believe these specialized resurrection abilities are meant to extend beyond the turn the model is killed. But that's only an assumption. I could start nitpicking at the section of the errata you quoted, "'If this model is killed or sacrificed during THE turn..." and insist that "the" indicates the turn in question and not simply "a turn", but like you said: sticky and pointless.

... I see no reason to discuss it further, as only an official Wyrdo could verify the intention either way. Plus, I have nothing invested in this particular discussion. There are no Leveticus nor Hamelin players in my local meta, it's no skin off my nose how it works, regardless.

Heh I feel the same way on this, only a RM can settle this now as it really boils down to intention and how to read the rule.

We shall see though! *sets down some cheese and highly illegal and experimental bits of technology*

[Hatchethead]

*begins digging a hole*

Someone, sharpen some punji sticks.

[Omenbringer]

"during the turn" seems like a bit of strange wording to me, but primarily it seems to be there to deal with any out of turn effects (if there ever were to be any?).

This isn't a out of turn effect, this occurs inside the turn but after Hamelin would have had an opprotunity to spring back.

Time x is the start Close Phase but there is no qualifier on this stating it must be the Start Close Phase of the turn he died. So it would just be the next time he can meet this time which would be the next turn.

And what if a model allowed a The Stolen or Waif to be brought back into play say during the closing phase (or maybe 2 or 3 turns after Hamelin/ Levi was killed), would they be able to come back because they can now meet the requirement?

As an example;

A Death Marshal uses Pine Box on The Stolen at some point before Hamelin is killed, Hamelin is killed during the turn, then During the Closing Phase of that turn wins the WP duel releasing the Stolen (or Waif) after the Begin Closing Phase when Hamelin would get to come back using Indiscriminant Void, is he dead, dead then or does he just wait until the end of the next turn because there is a potential that during the Begin Closing Phase of that turn their may be a The Stolen on the board for him to resurrect to?

At some point their has to be an end to the rebirth potential, my guess is the end of the turn he died in since nothing in either's ability states that it allows them to traverse into the next if killed.

Though the Timing rules on Page 6 of the Rules Manual are great for everything occuring prior to the Resolve Effects Step of the Closing Phase (Hamelin and Levi's resurrections), they dont really address this interaction since it occurs after it. To me it implies there is actually another sort of Resolve Effects step prior to moving into the next turn.

I am however eager to see how the Rules Marshals weigh in on this, since it could hava a lot of second and third echelon effects. I could see an abusive player strategically placing a The Stolen at the back of the board behind cover, killing Hamelin early on, then waiting until a latter turn to resurrect Hamelin to deny his opponent VP's for certain Strategies and Schemes.

It is difficult to Delliver a Message to a master that is not on the board until the Closing phase of turn 6.

[Necromorph]

Nah, they'd be gone. There is no way to make waifs or stolen without the master on the board, so you don't need to worry about the master popping back up on later turns.

[Omenbringer]

See the example Necromorph, a Death Marshal could make this scenario happen without the Master being in play. Granted it's a far stretch but within the realm of plausability.

[karn987]

I am however eager to see how the Rules Marshals weigh in on this, since it could hava a lot of second and third echelon effects. I could see an abusive player strategically placing a The Stolen at the back of the board behind cover, killing Hamelin early on, then waiting until a latter turn to resurrect Hamelin to deny his opponent VP's for certain Strategies and Schemes.

It is difficult to Delliver a Message to a master that is not on the board until the Closing phase of turn 6.

That would never be possible. Remember, I said the next time they were able to meet the conditions it would kick in. Not whenever they want, that is absolutely not the intention of the rule nor does the wording support it. It's like saying a weasel could try and argue his Master isn't dead because it may some how get a Wd back on a later turn. You skipped over the key part, the next time they were able to meet the conditions it would kick in. So IE, the next Closing Phase.

Sorry, I know we agreed to wait for a Marshal but that was to much of a reach I think.

Your bury example is a tricky one though, and honestly I think it would work. Bury basically suspends the flow of time on the model and so each Closing Phase, Levy/Hamelin would keep checking for that Waif/Stolen to be in play. They count as dead until they are brought back is how I view it. Because in fact, they are dead and things like this can happen. Counting as dead until they are back only makes sense to me.

Though the Timing rules on Page 6 of the Rules Manual are great for everything occuring prior to the Resolve Effects Step of the Closing Phase (Hamelin and Levi's resurrections), they dont really address this interaction since it occurs after it. To me it implies there is actually another sort of Resolve Effects step prior to moving into the next turn.

Maybe? But there is nothing in the actual rules to support it and because there are no rules for it, it doesn't happen. I'm putting speculation aside here and just arguing RAW and some RAI. RAW I think clearly allows them to come back and RAI I think supports this to.

I really wish I had that old ruling, even though it was preRM and V2, no relevant wording changed on Levy/Waif to cancel it.

[magicpockets]

The Death Marshall burying a Stolen idea is a fairly unique situation which would almost never happen. Having said that, I think Hatchet's point about Hamelin's respawn being based on "the" end closing phase not "an" end closing phase is important.

Having said that, wouldn't his respawn be classed as an effect applied to Hamelin when he hits 0 wounds which lets him either come back or die at the end of the turn? And as it doesn't specify when the effect ends it ends in the end closing phase, meaning if he's not back by then he dies. That's consistent with current rules and the model's rules.