Well Well Well, where are we now.

[Q'iq'el]

4/6" movement with flight and melee expert and a further (0) attack is very different to 4" movement on Undead. Lelu can move a full 8" and still hit something with enough power to kill it and enough consistency to be a threat, as well as threaten further end-of-turn damage. Point me to a Rezzer minion that can claim the same mobility and offensive power around that points value.

You mean 4" movement 8" charge on 5SS undead, right? And they get extra walk with Fresh Meat, reactivation with Massive Dose, maybe some help from Molly? - all sorts of buffs that can extend their movements at least once in a while. Lure is up there too, btw. Sure, no Double Take, but that's Control Hand dependent now. And for 8 SS you get 4AP to spend on Lure, while Lilitu gives you 3 for 7SS - not that bad of a difference all things considered.

Secondly, Lelu doesn't have 8" movement. If you play him that way, you play him wrong (AFAIK). He has 2 moves of 4". In between he needs a space to land. This is pretty big limiting factor, unless you always discuss your balance in complete vacuum.

From the practical point of view, when you play him with any other master than the Dreamer, you want to hide Lelu from shooting and enemy charges too. You also don't want him teleported, buried or lured away, because he's to slow to get back to combat on his own. So he's either behind a wall of your stronger models, or behind terrain.

From behind Terrain he cannot charge, so (as a Lilith player) I have to set Lure or Transposition up, so that the intended target lands in his LoS.

He can't charge from behind of other models at all (no LoS), especially in large melee (and Nephilim tend to create large melee balls, as they converge on the targets they want to kill), his movement often isn't long enough to fly over the friendly Nephilim and land in free space - he needs to stop over somewhere - I'm not saying it happens always, but with small positioning mistake you end up unable to use his Melee Expert attack either.

I'm not saying it is a huge weakness. I'm saying, it is unusual set of limits on movement for a Nephilim - clearly something which drags him down below what you'd consider basic level in a Lilith crew. He also needs much more help, especially in form of Lilith or Lilitu AP to set him up for a strike, than any other of my fighters.

This is actually pretty big - if Lelu can strike the opponent 3 times, but I also spend 2 or 3 Lilitu's AP or 1 Lilith' AP on setting up that combat, this achieves less than 1 strike per AP and Lilith' AP is worth more than Lelu's or Lilitu's. How strong, in your opinion, should a 7SS model melee Strike be, if it effectively costs 1.3~2AP per Strike? Even more if it's a charge?

As I said in another thread, after Nekima's change I see myself more comfortable with 5 Terror Tots growing into 5 Young Nephilim in turn 1 and fighting with auto-flay, than with bringing high-utility models that depend heavily on my control hand and offer their superior abilities with considerable tax in AP, Control Cards and other model's activations that have to be spend on making them work.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[nilus]

These two comments seem to be at odds with one another.

All in all, there seemed to bloom a strange dichotomy between wanting to steer away from "theoryfaux" but yet not take people's word when they proclaim something about their successes.

There is a huge difference between saying "I played a lot of games and this strategy has worked for me" and "I know what I am talking about because I never lose".

One is a honest comment based on experience, the other is an attempt to bully people into your opinion with an unrealistic win record. It also bull $$$$$$$$.

Anyways I am done with this thread. Fighting this fight again will just anger up the blood and make me say something I will regret. I don't want to risk my henchman badge or my respected status in the community over another "everything neverborn is broken" thread

[Math Mathonwy]

There is a huge difference between saying "I played a lot of games and this strategy has worked for me" and "I know what I am talking about because I never lose".

One is a honest comment based on experience, the other is an attempt to bully people into your opinion with an unrealistic win record. It also bull $$$$$$$$.

Malifaux is a very skill-based game with a steep learning curve. I have a crazy win-percentage but that's likely to change once the game matures here and the player-base gets more experience. "An unrealistic win record" is entirely possible in this game.

Now, it doesn't mean that someone sporting a huge winning streak is always right, but it does mean, that they probably aren't talking complete bull.

Anyways I am done with this thread. Fighting this fight again will just anger up the blood and make me say something I will regret. I don't want to risk my henchman badge or my respected status in the community over another "everything neverborn is broken" thread

I'm extremely sorry to have garnered such a reaction. It was not my intention and I do apologize. I didn't mean that you're the only one with the seeming dichotomy, but rather thought that the two posts I quoted illustrated the trend. Once more, my apologies.

[Wulfen]

I don't want to risk...or my respected status in the community

Not sure what ever gave you the idea you were respected?

And yes, I'm entirely kidding.

[NBmaster]

So I'm kinda throwing this out there as a joke, but the game is called Malifaux, and it takes place in Malifaux where the Neverborn come from. Shouldn't they have a tiny bit of home court advantage? But i guess its good everyone is getting there "Neverborn needs Cuddling" out now so they can move on to other factions as quickly as possible. I.e. Hoffman ss miner bury loop (if you havn't played against it yet watch out).

[Calmdown]

Shouldn't they have a tiny bit of home court advantage?

This comment literally makes me want to shoot myself.

No.

NO.

[micahwc]

Please no suicidal ideations on the forum.

I still think that 14 stones for the pair of twins is a better deal than 12 stones for a pair of young, which in turn I believe is better than 10 stones for a single mature. If you grow the young from tots than you get a better value, but you have to consider adding 13 stones for Nekima.

Point for point, I think the twins are a hard value to beat.

In my oppinion, based soley on my game experience, they are the best 14 points you can field in a Neverborn army. Though with the dreamer I would theorize that 2 Lelu would be as good or better value.

[LoboStele]

I.e. Hoffman ss miner bury loop (if you havn't played against it yet watch out).

Heh....I haven't even posted my ridiculous Lazarus build yet using that trick. Seriously. Crazy stuff.

Anyways....

As for the Twins...I think comparing them to the Coryphee Duet is a solid idea. For one, you really can't run one of the Twins without the other. So, they really do come as a 14 SS package.

That said, you can dish out roughly 3AP of attacks per turn, and then another 3AP of board manipulation. Hmm...sounds an awful lot like the Coryphee Duet, it's just that their board manipulation is wrapped up in their own ridiculous movement, Sword Dance, and their Push-generating trigger.

Yes, Lelu's damage is impressive and that's probably the only thing I would say could potential be toned down. However, with only the 5 Cb, I find that it's not really all that often that Lelu gets more than Weak damage. Yes, Weak damage is often enough to do some serious hurt, but that's what resource mitigation is about.

I don't know. I suppose my experience is likely colored by the crews I run. With Ramos the Arachnid Swarms don't mind too much, as their Armor helps, and Self-Repair does well to mitigate the poison. Then their 4 attacks with Paralyze trigger work wonders to annihilate Lelu, not to mention what a Steamborg can do to him. Or even Colette, Cassandra, and the Coryphee Duet. Not too hard for a Duet to kill Lelu in one activation, especially if it uses a Hypnotic Movements trigger. Oh, and Levi? Yeah, Lelu or Lilitu go down like a sack of bricks against him. Lelu can tear up a Desolation Engine something fierce, but if he doesn't completely kill it (which can be dependent on some lucky flips), it's going to hammer Lelu right back and heal back up again.

True, there are probably no 7SS figures that could go one-on-one with Lelu and survive. Compared to many other 7SS pieces he IS a solid model with some huge damage output. But with ONLY those 7SS, he also dies really fast, faster than most other 7SS models.

So, I really think you have to consider him in terms of the 14SS pair. But when you start looking at combinations of 14SS models....LOTS of options emerge that, IMO, can handle Lelu and Lilitu without too much trouble. As noted with the Ressers, a Flesh Construct and a Rotten Belle can do just about the same. Some Guild minions (Peacekeeper and Pale Rider first come to mind) can single-handedly deal with them, IMO, thanks to Immune to Influence (lets you basically ignore Lilitu), and good damage output. And you'd still have 4-5 SS of other models to fill in to match up at the 14SS level.

I'm not saying across the board that they ARE OK, or that they're not OP. Lelu is certainly a seriously BAMF, and a model that you really have to plan your strategy around. I just personally have not seen enough situations of OMGWTFBBQ to make me feel like he needs further errata.

Perhaps as we see more Dreamer lists with the Twins instead of mass Alps those perspectives may change. We'll see.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I personally think one of the stronger dreamer lists I've run into was:

Lelu x2

Lilitu

Stitched x2

Daydream x2

Set up: Dreamer deploys with 1 stitched and 1 Daydream on either side in b2b in cover. 1 daydream deploys as far forward as possible.

1st activation of the Dreamer: Companion activate both Daydreams and the Dreamer. Dreamer shuffle, drop off both Lelu's and a stitched in the opponents deployment zone and a lilitu 6" upfield, Chompy kills a model and turns back into the dreamer. Daydream back in deployment zone goes and unburies Chompy right next to him and then puts him away. Dreamer back in deployment zone next to a stitched and a daydream.

You get one activation before a double Lelu + Lilitu bond activation.

Very scary stuff.

[Calmdown]

I personally think one of the stronger dreamer lists I've run into was:

Lelu x2

Lilitu

Stitched x2

Daydream x2

Set up: Dreamer deploys with 1 stitched and 1 Daydream on either side in b2b in cover. 1 daydream deploys as far forward as possible.

1st activation of the Dreamer: Companion activate both Daydreams and the Dreamer. Dreamer shuffle, drop off both Lelu's and a stitched in the opponents deployment zone and a lilitu 6" upfield, Chompy kills a model and turns back into the dreamer. Daydream back in deployment zone goes and unburies Chompy right next to him and then puts him away. Dreamer back in deployment zone next to a stitched and a daydream.

You get one activation before a double Lelu + Lilitu bond activation.

Very scary stuff.

And thats not even the scariest way to play it.

[Geckilian]

Just curious actually - when I run Dreamer, I very rarely actually bury my nightmares. I usually have them out and about from the start to get activations in and only occasionally defensive stance and bury when they're truly nowhere near the action (which is rare). Minions like the Madness are more than fast enough for objectives and what not even without being unburied nearer to them.

Anyone else found this?

[Calmdown]

Just curious actually - when I run Dreamer, I very rarely actually bury my nightmares. I usually have them out and about from the start to get activations in and only occasionally defensive stance and bury when they're truly nowhere near the action (which is rare). Minions like the Madness are more than fast enough for objectives and what not even without being unburied nearer to them.

Anyone else found this?

I rapidly found in my first few games that starting with everything buried was a losing strategy against good players who knew how to take advantage of your lack of board presence.

Since I changed to Madness/Night Terrors on the board that issue went away.

Lelu/Lilitu/Stitched/etc still get buried to begin with.