Well Well Well, where are we now.

[nilus]

Well I tend to take win record boasted on forums with a grain of salt. Espeicaly boasts of undefeated.

[karn987]

Maybe I do.

I can't speak for Lelus played by players who's skill level I don't know, but I'm going to stand by my 100% win ratio with Neverborn so far as being fairly indicative that I know what I'm doing, and there's very few (no?) lists that have managed to do what you're telling me is the easy solution to Lelu.

This is kind of like the other Dreamer thread; you're saying the model is fine if you focus it. You seem to be under the assumption that a good player is going to let you focus it.

Win Ratio alone means nothing in this context. There are more then a few factors that go into it which give it meaning and because to few of them are a) Known and Can be accurately relayed. All this adds up to, win ratio proves nothing. For example, I have a 100% win Ratio with playing the Civilization Board game. I've played it 5 times and have won every single one of them using the sameish strategy. But does that make the game broken? Does it make the strategy broken? Of course not! There is far to much that you don't know about those games to even come close to claiming that. Does it show I know what I'm doing? At least to some degree but there is again far to much missing to know.

So while I am not trying to insult you or imply any amount of skill level (high or low) with the models you have played, I am simply stating a fact. There is far to much conjecture and missing information to have win ratio of one person mean much.

So on to your second point: In your opinion and through your experience then Calmdown, how would you let your opponent not focus fire on Lelu.

Now to head off one quick point, yes the Dreamer is the best at this and we simply accept this. To avoid the same old argument, please focus this on other Masters he is with and situations where he isn't dropped right into melee. We've already agreed that the Dreamer makes this kind of strategy, hard to pull off and generally costs your opponent as much as you lose.

[nilus]

A point mentioned a few times now. Lelu never needs to be exposed after all.

Exactly every model in the dreamers crew is unkilllable. If you leave lthem buried the whole game.

Lelu has to be in melee to do damage. By that very nature he is exposed for at least one activation until he can be reburied. To do the full extent of his damage(and to heal up) He needs to stay unburied.

[Calmdown]

Well I tend to take win record boasted on forums with a grain of salt. Espeicaly boasts of undefeated.

Whatever you say *shrug*

Point is, your tactic relies on focusing him down. Why exactly would your opponent let you do that? Is he not going to put his super epic melee model into a position that will minimise retaliation and where it is supported by its friends?

If that's not what your opponents do, then you'd probably beat them whatever they had, because it sounds like they're pretty poor Malifaux players.

Edit for Karn:

Assuming no Dreamer, then you're going to support Lelu the same way you support any model in any crew; his friends will be nearby, you aren't going to leave him on his own to be focused. You're going to trap enemy models in melee to stop focus fire, or you're going to fight in an advantageous spot due to Lure, or you're going to lure them away from attacking your Lelu, or you're going to companion activate and rip apart a part of the enemy line to minimise enemies in your area that can retaliate. The point isn't that Lelu is invincible, the point is that you're going to be supporting him with friends. Friends that will countercharge things that charged him. Friends that will also be fighting in that fight. Hence, saying "just attack him" is not viable from a tactical standpoint. He's not particularly squishy for a 7 point model, he's pretty average, and he has way above average healing potential, so why are we considering "just kill it" as an effective counter to him when it is no more effective than it is against any other model in the game?

Edited October 10, 2011 by Calmdown

[karn987]

Whatever you say *shrug*

Point is, your tactic relies on focusing him down. Why exactly would your opponent let you do that? Is he not going to put his super epic melee model into a position that will minimise retaliation and where it is supported by its friends?

If that's not what your opponents do, then you'd probably beat them whatever they had, because it sounds like they're pretty poor Malifaux players.

Back up your points with evidence please Calmdown. Wild accusations and unsupported claims only serve to muddy the already dirty waters. If you want to prove your point, then prove it with facts and evidence rather they trying to "bully" and insult people into submission.

I happen to agree completely with Nilus on this. I am not attempting to call you a liar in any form, but there is nothing to backup your claim. You can provide no evidence to validate it and using it to prove a point in a discussion/argument is like throwing bells at a wall. Sure they are shiny and sound nice when they hit, but they mean nothing to the wall.

Edited October 10, 2011 by karn987

[Hatchethead]

... and this is where the discussion falls down. We reach a boiling point where player skill enters the equation and both sides begin questioning individual skill or the skill of an individual's opponent. Suddenly, it's all hearsay. It doesn't matter what you say or what proof you provide as it can be discounted and dismissed as a factor of player skill (or lack thereof).

Unless you're playing in a meta with a proven history of high caliber play and the recorded rankings to back it up, it becomes impossible to enjoy a reasonable discourse.

I hate to see an otherwise interesting thread death spiral, but I suppose it's inevitable. Good discussion otherwise, gents.

[nilus]

Point is, your tactic relies on focusing him down. Why exactly would your opponent let you do that? Is he not going to put his super epic melee model into a position that will minimise retaliation and where it is supported by its friends?

This is a never ending argument. We can go in circles for years. You assume a good player will not put a Lelu out without support. I assume a good opponent will not let his models be easily targetted by a Lelu without having backup to retaliate.

[karn987]

Edit for Karn:

Assuming no Dreamer, then you're going to support Lelu the same way you support any model in any crew; his friends will be nearby, you aren't going to leave him on his own to be focused. You're going to trap enemy models in melee to stop focus fire, or you're going to fight in an advantageous spot due to Lure, or you're going to lure them away from attacking your Lelu, or you're going to companion activate and rip apart a part of the enemy line to minimise enemies in your area that can retaliate. The point isn't that Lelu is invincible, the point is that you're going to be supporting him with friends. Friends that will countercharge things that charged him. Friends that will also be fighting in that fight. Hence, saying "just attack him" is a completely moot point. He's not particularly squishy for a 7 point model, he's pretty average, and he has way above average healing potential, so why are we considering "just kill it" as an effective counter to him when it is no more effective than it is against any other model in the game?

Well I certainly feel the love

Ok then, so what you suggest is the general common sense support and protection that most players should know how to do and can understand. Fair enough, and that certainly has an effect, but it wont stop your opponent. Remember, I don't have to kill you with 1 models activation. I just have to kill you in 1 turn. Lelu's speed makes him very vulnerable to ranged attacks and one of the simplest and most effective things in the game (Paralyze) stops him cold in his tracks.

Guns work amazingly well against melee focused models and its not a matter of you engaging me before I can get a shot. Unless something strange is going on, the range model will almost always get the first shot off and there are a number of models in the game that can gun him down quickly. There are a few with Headshot and others have extremely long range. Some do super high damage *cough cough Samael* and others can hind behind buildings to kill you. Ever seen a Gremlin Gunline being used? Or a Kin Alpha Strike? Ortega Alpha Strike? Leveticus Gun line? Kaeris and her Gunsmiths?

Then you have the Blast generating attacks. Go ahead and use the usual strategy against high powered or even just normal attacks that generate them. Even if I don't kill Lelu, he is nearly the perfect launching point for these onto Lilitu or whatever other model is nearby. I'd even use weaker Blasters like Ice and Fire Gamin to take him down and do a significant amount of damage to the rest of your crew at the same time. Death effects are always never to be underestimated in the havoc they can bring and Slow to Die has put an end to far more then a few Lelu's.

Then you have just the outright tanks that can get in and take all your hits and keep going. Guild has a few good ones for this but even the Ressers with their powerful mitigation via Hard to Wound and Hard to Kill can stand there and take a pounding. I can force you very easily into the situation where now your killing what I want you to kill. The same trick is just as easily turned around on you and I can manipulate your responses by applying pressure the same way. I shove a tough model in your face and now you've got to deal with it or let it start attacking your crew.

Lastly we have the hit and run models though there are not a ton of these and their distance is limited. Corphyee being the biggest and best example of this hand down. They can inflict a heavy amount of damage and get out of harms way without much issue. If you time it for after Lelu's activation, even better as you can then have another model finish them off. The Riders work really well for this, all 4 of them have a hit and run ability and the Guild's Pale Rider is a massive force to be reconned with.

Of course this entire thing is still in the realm of Theoryfaux because we have no real world situations to run off of. But its not really even much or an argument Calmdown. I can return the pressure you put on my crew and I can force you to either stand down with Lelu and hold him back, or rush in. The same goes reverse from your perspective.... see what I mean? Its not nearly as cut and dry as your making it out to be. Your opponent can create as equally disadvantageous situations as you can.

Edited October 10, 2011 by karn987

[karn987]

... and this is where the discussion falls down. We reach a boiling point where player skill enters the equation and both sides begin questioning individual skill or the skill of an individual's opponent. Suddenly, it's all hearsay. It doesn't matter what you say or what proof you provide as it can be discounted and dismissed as a factor of player skill (or lack thereof).

Unless you're playing in a meta with a proven history of high caliber play and the recorded rankings to back it up, it becomes impossible to enjoy a reasonable discourse.

I hate to see an otherwise interesting thread death spiral, but I suppose it's inevitable. Good discussion otherwise, gents.

Which is why we try to get away from it and chastise people for bringing it up If these discussions are ever to work (which they may never be able to), you have to assume equal things such as skill etc.

So help us get away from that annoying bit Hatchet and weigh in as to your thoughts on the matter

[Fetid Strumpet]

Actually you can't assume that a model will get at least one activation against Lelu in Melee. The same tactic that works in Ressers, IE pairing a Rotten Belle with a Punk Zombie, works even better for the Lelu/ Lilitu pairing, because they have Bond.

Lelu stays in Cover which gives him great protection or blocks LoS and you can still have the situations where.

1: The Twins Bond and Lilitu chain lures you into Lelu's Melee range and then Lelu immediately activates and Pounds your model into a pulpy mess.

2: The Twins Bond and Lelu Charges out of cover, Pounds your model into a pulpy mess with his charge and melee expert attacks, and then Lilitu chain lures him back into cover.

Now certainly you can most likely, over the course of the game, against certain masters, maneuver into potsition and take him out, I find that unless I'm playing a movement tricky crew like Kirai, getting to Lelu before he's killed a few models already is very tough.

[nilus]

Guns work amazingly well against melee focused models and its not a matter of you engaging me before I can get a shot. Unless something strange is going on, the range model will almost always get the first shot off and there are a number of models in the game that can gun him down quickly. There are a few with Headshot and others have extremely long range. Some do super high damage *cough cough Samael* and others can hind behind buildings to kill you.

Technically that last one isn't a Gun, its a bird. But it does the same thing

[Hatchethead]

So help us get away from that annoying bit Hatchet and weigh in as to your thoughts on the matter

Heck no! Neverborn are hardly my forte. I'm especially lax in matters of the twins. On that topic, any contribution I could make to this particular thread would be dubious at best. I lurk, I learn.

Balance discussions often assume the highest level of play possible, an arena wherein no one makes mistakes (as mistakes are a randomizing factor and should never be considered a balancing factor). But in doing so, we allow individuals to craft ideal scenarios to prove a point, if only because a world class player would never put themselves in a scenario that sees them at a disadvantage. The discussion ceases to be about the model as player skill becomes the sole point of contention. It's all very cyclical and self-defeating, more often than not.

Which isn't to say I believe fruitful balance discussions are impossible. Just ... impossibly delicate.

But I'm OT. Ignore me.

/lurk

Edited October 10, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Adran]

I agree with Calmdown here.

Lelu is probably the hardest melee model to take out in 1 go.

Firstly, 2 of his typical masters have movement tricks to place him in melee from safety (or safety from combat). This generally means that ranged attacks are at least going to be at neagative flips, if at all possible. And there will eb limited cahances to attack him in melee.

Also his link with lelitu allows you to either disrupt your opponent by bringing them to you, or bringing him away from them.

Df5 is comparable to most Cb ratings in the game. Its not a garenteed hit, let alone cheatable damage.

His self healing is one of the best about (second only too the executioner I would say, and Lelus works even if he isn't in combat).

To focus enough attacks on lelu to kill him, you are lookign at a disproportionate points cost to do so.

It can be done, but its going to be the focus of 1 or 2 turns to really work, and that tempo bonus is also probably at the cost of a similar costed model that leu killed.

[Calmdown]

Its not nearly as cut and dry as your making it out to be. Your opponent can create as equally disadvantageous situations as you can.

Yes, but your opponent's models that do so don't cost 7 points and hit like a truck. So 'just kill him and the threat is gone' is no more viable a tactic than it is against any other minion. It's unlikely you're bringing the same power to bear on the table that the Neverborn player is, since simply he has cheaper models than you do.

We're not talking about Lelu's survivability being good here, we're talking about the fact that he does too much for his cost. He's on par with or better than almost every other model in the game, including the ones that are 1/2/3 points more expensive than him, and he doesn't have any disadvantages that cancel this out.

[Ratty]

Yes, but your opponent's models that do so don't cost 7 points and hit like a truck. So 'just kill him and the threat is gone' is no more viable a tactic than it is against any other minion. It's unlikely you're bringing the same power to bear on the table that the Neverborn player is, since simply he has cheaper models than you do.

We're not talking about Lelu's survivability being good here, we're talking about the fact that he does too much for his cost. He's on par with or better than almost every other model in the game, including the ones that are 1/2/3 points more expensive than him, and he doesn't have any disadvantages that cancel this out.

I think the problem is his survivability seems too high for a 7ss model. But if you consider them as a pair for 14ss the survivability of the pair isn't as high as something like the Coryphee Duet which is also 14ss.

I've played against both Lelu & Lilitu and the Duet. The Duet I've taken out a couple of times, but it's been hard work. Lelu & Lilitu have never survived a game. Most of the time can take the pair down before they do any significant damage. The reason, a soon as you take down one of them the second is easy to take down.

Now when you have more than a pair they become significantly harder to take down, and I do agree with the Dreamer they are probably really scary. But in a basic Neverborn crew they seem fine.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree the Duet is harder to kill, but it doesn't offer anywhere near the lethality Lelu does. The max dmg it can do is 4, and while it can usually do the 4 it it want's to I often find the opponent is burning resources, IE cards from hand or SS, to do so. Lelu will do a minimum of 4 dmg to you on his first strike without expending resources, because of poison.

Actually comparing the Duet to the Twins isn't such a bad Idea because I personally don't feel the duet is overcosted at all. It can be a frustrating model to deal with, but I've not once felt that the amount of SS spend on it was under the performance it put out. I do feel that way about the twins.

Discuss?

[Ozz]

Not read much of this argument, but the difference is, the duet is hard to hit back, and their opponent must spend a lot of resources to be able to kill them, as Colette will generally make plenty of stones for them to waste to beat all your totals, with a positive flip on Defence and DF 7 taking them down with combat duels is not cost effective. Point of Duet is not dmg output, they peck, and $$$$$$$$ off the opponent, making them waste resources they can use else where on them, and you use stones / some 0 actions to make them heal up or not take the dmg in the first place:)

Probably going to make you sigh, but on a game board, without stones i believe that the duet would happily beat the twins. Situational yes. but the twins should be in capable of hitting the duet back assuming there is some terrain to get behind on the board:)

In my opinion though, the twins are not over priced, as yes they can do their jobs very well (still not got a great understanding of why Lilitu is so good, personally) but, they are not that hard to kill, yes if not done in 1 turn, they get 2 WD each back if they are close enough, but that just means lilitu is closer to attack as she does not re gen and has less WD so generally easier to get rid of. Ill not say they are a glass cannon, as has been said else where, but in general when ever i tend to see them, it has never taken much effort to get rid of ether one of them from their opponents/my opponents.

This how ever is just my opinions on them, i am yet to play against them and still dont think i know how to use them at 100% so take that into account before you say how what i've said is all useless.

[Q'iq'el]

I think the problem is his survivability seems too high for a 7ss model. But if you consider them as a pair for 14ss the survivability of the pair isn't as high as something like the Coryphee Duet which is also 14ss.

The survivability stick has two ends. I think it is higher than the model's pricing would suggest, because killing either Lelu or Lilitu is causing the effect on all remaining "opposites" in the game - you can easily achieve 2 kills worth of wounds, if you have 2 Lelus and 1 Lilitu and kill the Lilitu (or vice versa).

Also I don't believe the budgeting system is as simplicistic as to price abilities equally in all factions. That wouldn't allow for much diversity. I'm sure a Cb point or a Talent related to a melee attack is cheaper for Neverborn than the Guild and same works in reverse for Ranged attacks. Just look at Tuco - 7SS model bringing the priceless ranged attacks to the Neverborn, and all he gets is 2/3/4 with blasts, at Cb5. His melee is below average too. Sure, still a great model with synergies and all, but clearly the ranged attack must have strained the budget.

Obviously that's all speculation and a wild guess, but once we start discussing whether models are underpriced or overpriced, it's worth to consider what other factions may be getting for the cheap. Perhaps the reason NB are considered so strong is that melee is simply superior to other possible "perks" in current meta.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Fetid Strumpet]

Fast and Lethal make for a very powerful combo Q, I think you are right and it is a point I've made for awhile. If you are very fast you have extra time to spend not directly completing your objectives, and on killing or neutralizing the opponent. If you hit really hard you can very easily impose the ultimate control status on the opponent, Death. Couple them together and you have a very powerful combo to overcome.

As a side note it also plays into the current way gaining grounds is set up, because if time runs out a fast hitting crew has a better chance of being ahead on points as compared to a slow, or attrition based crew.

[Odin1981]

Just my thought but I don't proclaim to be a expert or anything but I feel the "big" problem with them is this. I personally would only ever consider comparing them to the duet you can't really make any other comparison model wise. But the one strength of them imho would be that you can have multiplies of them.

With the duet you can only ever have 1. However I am in no way, shape, or form saying they are op'd. I feel they are just a more offensive minded duet. But the "one issue" they have is that you can run multiplies of them but the duet their is never more than one.

Every game to this point I have played them when I run up against them I admit there is a high possibility of something of mine dying first but after they are done activating boom focus fire on lelu and he goes down imho quicker than even samuel does. Once that happens I normally just ignore lilutu. Because without lelu she doesn't due much. Granted I give you that just about every crew I run in this game has around wp6, stubborn, or immune to influence so maybe I naturally just gravitate towards stuff that isn't very molested by liluto luring things.

[Q'iq'el]

Fast and Lethal make for a very powerful combo Q, I think you are right and it is a point I've made for awhile. If you are very fast you have extra time to spend not directly completing your objectives, and on killing or neutralizing the opponent. If you hit really hard you can very easily impose the ultimate control status on the opponent, Death. Couple them together and you have a very powerful combo to overcome.

As a side note it also plays into the current way gaining grounds is set up, because if time runs out a fast hitting crew has a better chance of being ahead on points as compared to a slow, or attrition based crew.

Lelu though, is slower than many of your Undead. Just 4" move and only 6" charge, even with Flight that is laughable.

You have to remember he has no Diving Attack, so he can't charge models he cannot see (unlike other Nephilim fighters). Also, because it is Flight not Float, you need to land him after these 4" of movement - that means many bigger obstacles will force him to move around.

I understand The Dreamer treats him as any other nightmare and all these troubles go away, but that's the problem with the Dreamer, rather than Lelu himself.

[Calmdown]

Lelu though' date=' is slower than many of your Undead. Just 4" move and only 6" charge, even with [b']Flight that is laughable.

You have to remember he has no Diving Attack, so he can't charge models he cannot see (unlike other Nephilim fighters). Also, because it is Flight not Float, you need to land him after these 4" of movement - that means many bigger obstacles will force him to move around.

I understand The Dreamer treats him as any other nightmare and all these troubles go away, but that's the problem with the Dreamer, rather than Lelu himself.

4/6" movement with flight and melee expert and a further (0) attack is very different to 4" movement on Undead. Lelu can move a full 8" and still hit something with enough power to kill it and enough consistency to be a threat, as well as threaten further end-of-turn damage. Point me to a Rezzer minion that can claim the same mobility and offensive power around that points value.

[Math Mathonwy]

Nope, it works. I have a year+ of games that show it does. I think you over estimate your neverborn "alpha strike" and board control.

Well I tend to take win record boasted on forums with a grain of salt. Espeicaly boasts of undefeated.

These two comments seem to be at odds with one another.

All in all, there seemed to bloom a strange dichotomy between wanting to steer away from "theoryfaux" but yet not take people's word when they proclaim something about their successes.

I realize the reluctance that some people feel about win percentages and such posted online as that data, even when true, might not tell the whole story as the playing group can be extremely skewed due to local culture or player base, for example.

That said, Calmdown has actual proof about his playing merit having won a tournament with the Dreamer last weekend (unless the whole UK scene is in on the vast conspiracy), which shows that he does know what he talks about at least to some extent. Now, naturally he should still back up his opinions based on stats and rules and "theoryfaux" but there is merit to listening a bit more openly to people who tend to win tournaments.

[Math Mathonwy]

Then you have just the outright tanks that can get in and take all your hits and keep going. Guild has a few good ones for this but even the Ressers with their powerful mitigation via Hard to Wound and Hard to Kill can stand there and take a pounding.

But that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? Very, very few non-Master models in this game can take two hits from Lelu and live. Taking into account the poison and the autowounds and the list is downright miniscule.

I can force you very easily into the situation where now your killing what I want you to kill. The same trick is just as easily turned around on you and I can manipulate your responses by applying pressure the same way. I shove a tough model in your face and now you've got to deal with it or let it start attacking your crew.

On the whole, I'd say that Neverborn do have the edge when it comes to choosing their fights, so I'm not quite convinced about the "very easily" part of the quoted paragraph.

But on the whole, I feel that this discussion is concentrating on how to deal with Lelu and that isn't the point, really. He is of average survivability. His damage potential is the one that's over the top.

To illustrate, if his damage track was 10/14/18 everyone would likely agree that it's too much. But yet, all the current claims on how he can be dealt with would still be valid.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Math Mathonwy

[Cunning]

4/6" movement with flight and melee expert and a further (0) attack is very different to 4" movement on Undead. Lelu can move a full 8" and still hit something with enough power to kill it and enough consistency to be a threat, as well as threaten further end-of-turn damage. Point me to a Rezzer minion that can claim the same mobility and offensive power around that points value.

Not forgetting that most of the time you should have Lelitu to either drag a model close to lelu or lelu close to another model to reduce the distance he needs to go.