Well Well Well, where are we now.

[Dolomyte]

Alright, so our meta shifted slightly this morning. Let's start picking up the pieces and terrify the ever loving hell out of our opponents again.

I think tournaments are going to be much more diverse for neverborn again, I had seen a prevelance of dreamer and filth, but now we shall see some new faces. Let's strategize.

I am going to break this thread out by Strategies, I am going to reserve the next 6 posts so that I can discuss each individual gaining ground strategy and the lists that I would bring for it at 25, 30, and 35 soulstones. We can discuss those levels and lists throughout the thread and come up with some hopefully cool ideas.

I am going to make the assumption that most tournaments are going to use shared strategies (everyone i've been to has) just because they are easier and faster to implement in a tournament. having people flip for inidividual is cool and all, but it takes more setup time.

Feel free to post any ideas for the specific strategies, I will write up long ones as I get the time to do so, adding whatever you discuss.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Dolomyte]

Contain Power

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Edited October 3, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Dolomyte]

Treasure Hunt

My LGS is awfully cutthroat about treasure hunt, if you can't get the treasure on the first activation of the first turn your going to be facing an uphill battle. To counter that with neverborn I find the best option to be Collodi. His crew is lightning fast, and with the right chain of activations you can get that token in your hands on the second activation of your turn, blocking others from getting it on the first.

To accomplish this. I activate Collodi first, do the pulse to give nearby dolls fast, ...Went to the hospital for what I thought was a heart attack. back now, going to finish this tommorow.

25 ss -

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35 ss -

Edited October 4, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Dolomyte]

Destroy the Evidence

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Edited October 3, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Dolomyte]

Reconnoiter

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Edited October 3, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Dolomyte]

Claim JUMP

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Edited October 3, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Dolomyte]

Slaughter

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Edited October 3, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Calmdown]

I'm gonna drop some incredibly generalised 'best master/models per scenario' here to get started.

Contain Power: Dreamer, no brainer. Alternate is Lilith who is also a monster, but not as much as Chompy.

Slaughter: Dreamer, Stitched. Almost an auto-win.

Claim Jump: Pandora + whatever. Possibly with her avatar. Her zonal control is phenomenal. Zoraida and Lilith can also do this too though. Twins and Stitched make great holding units. Alternatively, Dreamer or Lilith and just kill stuff.

Reconnoiter: Zoraida owns for movement control, Silurids and Tots own for significance and speed. Depends on your schemes as to what works best. Lilith and Dreamer also work if you take the 'kill everything and win by your opponent not having any models to contest' route. Pandora less so as she tends to less significant models, imho.

Destroy Evidence: Silurids. Whatever else you want really.

[pgbsamurai]

Reconnoiter: Zoraida owns for movement control, Silurids and Tots own for significance and speed. Depends on your schemes as to what works best. Lilith and Dreamer also work if you take the 'kill everything and win by your opponent not having any models to contest' route. Pandora less so as she tends to less significant models, imho.

Lilith with Tots and Nekima have crazy board control without having to kill everything. Looking at a potential 30" of movement with Tots boosted by Nekima.

[Dolomyte]

Im working on the treasure hunt writeup now. I remember a way of getting collodi and some models to the token on the first activation. I just need to play out the order of operations to make sure im not giving bad advice.

[Matamane]

What changed in the meta?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

What changed in the meta?

:flute:

[Dracomax]

What changed in the meta?

Well, you can probably buy some alps andf or Nekima cheap from crying neverborn players. It'll likely even be painted already.

[notmikehill]

Well, you can probably buy some alps andf or Nekima cheap from crying neverborn players. It'll likely even be painted already.

In some cases you may even be able to buy an entire Dreamer Alp list from some players that are trying to Bartertown their Malifaux and go back to whatever other hobby they may have come from.

[notmikehill]

To contribute to the OP I can safely say Lilith is fantastic at Destroy the Evidence, as well as Zoraida. With Access to Bad Juju you can cover a lot of ground to grab objectives as well as raven, transposition, etc.

[micahwc]

Honestly, I don't think the Nekima edit will change a lot. Like I said in the other post, an infinate lure loop required at least 20, if not 27 stones. In a 30 or 35 point game that is too much of an investment. Even in a 40 point game 27 points is a lot.

I think Nekima is still viable, even with the change.

[Odin1981]

Honestly these two changes don't change much about dreamer. Before the errata the "worst list" to face against playing against the dreamer was a elite cost list (7+ point cost excluding 2-3 stitched together and the 2-3 daydreams) now the real list will become paramount and soon step into the limelight due to the errata making the dreamer player need more than just the box set plus or minus 1-2 boxes needed beyond the starter crew due to the changes made to alps.

The only positive thing about the alp change was making it so they can't auto gib a expensive model the second they announce their action if within 3" of a bunch of alps if said model doesn't didn't have use ss from the start of their activation.

The nekima errata is welcome and nice because now I no longer feel the need for a 13 point red headed step child ortega that gives masks via aura to all family members because the auto double take no longer happens. But honestly the "filth list" wasn't incredably op'd it just required all but about 5-6 crews in the game to adjust tactics when facing said list (to compare I would put it at a hamelin the plagued level of difficulty definatley by no means unbeatable it just required that the opponent of said list to recognize a change of tactics is needed and adjust accordingly. If anything from various battle reports it would seem to be mainly a "gimmick" list of sorts that keyed on opponents being surprised by it and not caught unaware.

I would say that I am thankful though that the alps were changed but the nekima change at least in my humble opinion was strictly just kinda of meh. The main problem in my opinion is that now their will be a much greater of a threat that will be soon to be released due to the recent errata in that the "real competitive dreamer list" will now be unveiled due to the errata now more or less being forced upon the malifaux world.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Odin1981

[Calmdown]

Honestly these two changes don't change much about dreamer. Before the errata the "worst list" to face against playing against the dreamer was a elite cost list (7+ point cost excluding 2-3 stitched together and the 2-3 daydreams) now the real list will become paramount and soon step into the limelight due to the errata making the dreamer player need more than just the box set plus or minus 1-2 boxes needed beyond the starter crew due to the changes made to alps.

The only positive thing about the alp change was making it so they can't auto gib a expensive model the second they announce their action if within 3" of a bunch of alps if said model doesn't didn't have use ss from the start of their activation.

The nekima errata is welcome and nice because now I no longer feel the need for a 13 point red headed step child ortega that gives masks via aura to all family members because the auto double take no longer happens. But honestly the "filth list" wasn't incredably op'd it just required all but about 5-6 crews in the game to adjust tactics when facing said list (to compare I would put it at a hamelin the plagued level of difficulty definatley by no means unbeatable it just required that the opponent of said list to recognize a change of tactics is needed and adjust accordingly. If anything from various battle reports it would seem to be mainly a "gimmick" list of sorts that keyed on opponents being surprised by it and not caught unaware.

I would say that I am thankful though that the alps were changed but the nekima change at least in my humble opinion was strictly just kinda of meh. The main problem in my opinion is that now their will be a much greater of a threat that will be soon to be released due to the recent errata in that the "real competitive dreamer list" will now be unveiled due to the errata now more or less being forced upon the malifaux world.

Good players are playing this list already, Alp change will just drop away some bad players hopefully. But still, at least against a 'proper' Nightmare list you get to activate without passive abilities killing you.

That is, whilst you still have models on the table, anyway.

[magicpockets]

Good players are playing this list already, Alp change will just drop away some bad players hopefully.

:amen:

[Odin1981]

Good players are playing this list already, Alp change will just drop away some bad players hopefully. But still, at least against a 'proper' Nightmare list you get to activate without passive abilities killing you.

That is, whilst you still have models on the table, anyway.

So you admit to that it being not much of a list more so than a "gimmick" list as well. So by that standard it isn't even a change other than "discouraging" players lacking tactical capabilities to take anything other than a typical "internet hive mind this is the end all be all 1v1". Not that I have even the slightest inclination in getting into a argument about this, however all this does is just cut chaff away from people gravitated to just taking a list that "is" the #1 according to internet mantra but in actuality is really not a list that a experianced thorough play tested player would actually see as a problem entering a high level tournament.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Odin1981

[Calmdown]

So you admit to that it being not much of a list more so than a "gimmick" list as well. So by that standard it isn't even a change other than "discouraging" players lacking tactical capabilities to take anything other than a typical "internet hive mind this is the end all be all 1v1". Not that I have even the slightest inclination in getting into a argument about this, however all this does is just cut chaff away from people gravitated to just taking a list that "is" the #1 according to internet mantra but in actuality is really not a list that a experianced thorough play tested player would actually see as a problem.

I've never said anything else, it's just chic for people to argue against me regardless of my opinion apparently

But seriously, whilst it is a gimmick, it was a very effective and difficult to counter one in the hands of a good player but moreover, it was *too easy* to execute. For the health of any decent game, nothing should be as braindead as "place models within x inches of enemy. Enemy dies".

That said, the reason that the 'other' list (Twins, Copellius, etc) is better is not because Alps were not broken, it's because Lelu/Lilitu are even *more* broken than Alps are. They're potentially 9 point models that cost 7. Lelu is a melee expert with paired, an extra (magic) attack for 0, regen/self heals, flight, and automatic end of turn damage. Frankly ridiculous. Lilitu is a bit less of an issue but Float, Lure, 4" melee, Paralyse, Irresistible, and free heals...wow. If the twins cost 9 points each (maybe 8 for Lilitu), they'd still be run in a lot of lists, and that's an issue.

I also don't want to draw this thread down that line so let's keep this brief, but as I said in other threads, the Alp change is just the tip of the iceberg of what needs to change about Neverborn to align them with other factions. Let's not even get in to Kidnap and Slaughter/Stitched o_0

[Adran]

To some extent I agree here with Calmdown, this isn't going to make much difference to the good players. What it is going to do is improve the play experience of people learning the game.

Which will hopefully encorage them to play again, without the immedeate view that they have no way to deal with what the opponent just played.

It opens options in play decisions to the neverborne opponent.

I'm glad to see it, but I don't think it makes Alps unworthwhile. But then I never saw the Alp Bomb as too powerful anyway.

It shows wyrd are responding to player perception, and improving the game for beginning players.

The fact that they have manged to do this, without signifigantly impacting the top lists (in my view possibly 4-5 wounds less spread over several models) is even better.

The Nephlim heart is probably a larger change, and I haven't spent as long thinking about that one. Largely it reduces the number of combos Nekima allows. I'm not unhappy about that, she still powers up several things.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree. I haven't face the alp bomb, so my only objections to it were purely mechanical, IE passive control abilities are not fun to play against, too easy to use, and bad for the game in general.

The Dreamer list I object to most of all is like calmdown said, the elite Dreamer list which drops 2 Lelus + Insert # of Stitched in the middle of your crew, in it's deployment zone, after Chompy has killed one of your models on his very first activation of the game. That amount of board mobility coupled with it's lethality is just not good for the game in my opinion.

The change to Nekima... I'm mixed about it. In order to fix the FILTH list I'd have preferred a change to doubletake so that it only worked once per cast or once per model per turn (it is called Doubletake after all, not quintupletake). I do see however why it might be better to change Nekima now, as it will allow better Neverborn minions to be designed in the future

as everyone won't have to be compared against Nekima to see if being given the auto-mask would break any of their abilities.

[nix]

Treasure Hunt

My LGS is awfully cutthroat about treasure hunt, if you can't get the treasure on the first activation of the first turn your going to be facing an uphill battle. To counter that with neverborn I find the best option to be Collodi. His crew is lightning fast, and with the right chain of activations you can get that token in your hands on the second activation of your turn, blocking others from getting it on the first.

To accomplish this. I activate Collodi first, do the pulse to give nearby dolls fast, ...Went to the hospital for what I thought was a heart attack. back now, going to finish this tommorow.

25 ss -

30 ss -

35 ss -

Well, I usually try to stay away from the heart-attack step on this.

Hope your feeling better!

[nilus]

Went to the hospital for what I thought was a heart attack. back now, going to finish this tommorow.

Holy crap. Dolymyte got so excited about the changes to Alp and Nekima it nearly killed him. Just kidding

Hope you are feeling better.