Competitive Rezzers

[ProdigalPunk]

Anyone can win, I am even willing to say Gremlins can win. If you play Neverborn I think you will be more likely to win then if you play Rezzers. There are many reasons for this. Rezzers are slow, have relatively no auto-point schemes, are highly dependent on the master, have a hard time denying your opponent scheme points, have little synergy and what synergy we do have is not effective on 80% of the serious competition, focus too much on living and undead, which is becoming more a minority then I think the first three masters were designed with. I would even go as far as to say they suffer from anti-synergy (is there a better word for this) in the Karai is the best master, and sort of goes against the grain of the rest of the faction. Her and Bete for example, depending on your opponent Bete might never even have the opportunity to come out. Which is said since she has the potential to be one of our best minions. But I guess that sort of sums up why we can not be competitive, we are too reliant on our opponents.

[Necromorph]

we are too reliant on our opponents.

Bingo.

Which is why I've moved my Ressers away from summoning pretty strongly. I run solid lists that can stand up to punishment and run screens for the master to do their thing. If I do start losing models, sure, maybe summon something to get my model count back up. Mcm's in combat? Sure, summon a RN into the middle of their crew. Nico needs more activations, or needs to tie something up? Why not summon a PZ into melee with something to buy myself some time. Basically, I've moved summoning to a very* situational thing instead of the focus of the crew.

As for being competitive, I agree with a lot of people in this post, on both sides of the argument. Can ressers be comepetitive, sure, to an extent. Are they going to win tons of tournaments, probably not, but they easily have the opportunity to place top 3 often. Local Meta's are huge for ressers, as certain crews do more hurt to us than others, but there's nothing glaringly wrong with ressers that makes them uncompetitive. However, bad matchups (with the exception of vs. Kirai) usually effect all the masters and not just 1-2.

[Calmdown]

Wouldn't know, wasn't there...why?

@calmdown - I'm on my phone so can't really post. I read your sentence as, 'no other faction aside from neverborn can win', which is what I replied to and I think any faction can win including ressers, which your

Unbeaten streak with kirai surely proves she's as competitive?

As fox said its not another exorcist thread so instead of 'Ressers can't win because of neverborn', you try and be positive and say, 'Ressers could win by/because...'?

Bleh you clearly didnt read the whole post (maybe phone related, I dunno).

The point I was making is that Kirai is awesome and I'd happily take on basically anyone with her, problem is that her hardest game is the Dreamer (not because he's so intrinsically good, but because he does what she does but is better at it, broadly speaking). And as Dreamer comprises a large part of the meta, that inherently reduces the competitiveness of Kirai. Since Rezzers dont have any other master on that level (McMourning is awesome, Seamus and Nicodem are poop) and certainly no better alternative that they can take if they think they are going to face dreamer, that limits their competitiveness.

Of course, that assumes that you're going to face people running Dreamer with enough skill(/luck) to beat you. All these discussions do. In the same way that Marcus being a mediocre master assumes that there are people with enough skill (/luck) to beat him. It's all hypothetical, you guys need to get less worked up every time the concept of Neverborn superiority is mentioned, it's not always a crusade but it is still relevant to discussions - even if you disagree!

In summary: Kirai is awesome jaja.

As for being competitive, I agree with a lot of people in this post, on both sides of the argument. Can ressers be comepetitive, sure, to an extent. Are they going to win tons of tournaments, probably not, but they easily have the opportunity to place top 3 often. Local Meta's are huge for ressers, as certain crews do more hurt to us than others, but there's nothing glaringly wrong with ressers that makes them uncompetitive. However, bad matchups (with the exception of vs. Kirai) usually effect all the masters and not just 1-2.

Are they going to win tournaments? Of course they are, as soon as someone good picks them up and starts playing them at a competitive level. Are they going to win tournaments more often than if the same player played Neverborn/Outcasts? Probably not. The discussion is not whether they can win - they obviously can, and so can every other faction - the discussion is whether they are truly competitive, and by my definition of that word (taking the necessary steps to come out of a tournament above others), the answer is no.

YMM, of course, V.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Calmdown

[ukrocky]

Marcus being a mediocre master assumes that there are people with enough skill (/luck) to beat him.

Aside from Marcus being unbeatable, you could change the name Marcus to any master and take out the opinioated word of mediocre, and the sentence applies across the whole game.

you guys need to get less worked up every time the concept of Neverborn superiority is mentioned,

Deal. If you stop mentioning Neverborn superiority every single post.

[Stargazer]

I agree with Necromorph, I've found moving away from summoning factories and using summoning more as a situational thing to apply a bit more pressure where needed is far more effective and I would say I'm competitive within my local meta. Sure I still have a hard time against things like the Dreamer but who doesn't? This doesn't mean he's unbeatable however.

I think that Nicodem is one of the more competitive of our masters if played aggresively, he's almost impossible to kill when surrounded by MZs and when he hits the midfield he has great area denial with the fog to protect him and his crew combined with the ability to paralyse models with little effort makes him pretty nasty, in my last game against the Dreamer I used Nico and it ended in a 6-6 draw and the only reason I didn't pull out a victory was the flip of a black joker at an inopportune moment during the last turn. (I'm not bitter honest.. )

[Calmdown]

Aside from Marcus being unbeatable, you could change the name Marcus to any master and take out the opinioated word of mediocre, and the sentence applies across the whole game.

Not quite the whole game, but I take your meaning.

Deal. If you stop mentioning Neverborn superiority every single post.

I'll stop mentioning it when it's no longer the case, until then it's a relevant discussion point, *particularly* when talking about the viability of certain masters/factions. Being on a personal crusade to win with things that arent Neverborn doesn't change the stats and abilities of the models

[Jonas Albrecht]

Seamus and Nicodem are poop

Don't really know or care about Seamus, but Nicodem is a strong Master. Do people make stupid (read: stuffed with Canine Remains) lists with him? Yes, but if you don't play him like you have all the time in the world to summon a Zombo Horde, you have a formidable master at your disposal.

[Stargazer]

^ That I dont get where people have got this whole Nico is so bad he's not even worth considering from..

[Ratty]

Seamus does fairly well too. I know some people that rate him as the 2nd best Resurrectionist master. I've never had an issue winning with him,

[ukrocky]

Not quite the whole game, but I take your meaning.

Which bit of the game does it not apply to? :S

I'll stop mentioning it when it's no longer the case, until then it's a relevant discussion point, *particularly* when talking about the viability of certain masters/factions. Being on a personal crusade to win with things that arent Neverborn doesn't change the stats and abilities of the models

Yes, but we know neverborn are a bit better than everyone else. So instead of focusing on how OP they are and how nothing is as good as them (which may or may not be true), and will also be the case for the foorseeable future. How about for the short term we all work together to find things in the other factions that will help offset the imbalance, ie, in this thread chatting together about whether ressers have a chance, and if so, how.

Every master and faction is viable, and I admit it takes a bit more skill/practise with the others, but that doesn't stop them being viable. We should focus, in threads like this, on what makes them viable, how people have made them work and so on, rather than moan about what the point is while neverborn exsist.

Anyway, I think nico is an overlooked master often and has a fair few nice tricks. He's deffo on my list to try. McMourning I see alot of and at times he's so hard to put down whilst pumping out flesh constructs, which are nasty things to be facing!

Seamus is the only one I don't really get, and never have, as I can never work out how to get enough damage in a standard Seamus crew so I tend to write weird lists for him...

Edited August 31, 2011 by ukrocky

[Necromorph]

^ That I dont get where people have got this whole Nico is so bad he's not even worth considering from..

If you play him as a straight summoner, he's not great, as too many units don't drop counters and you're gimping yourself against 70% of crews. However, played as an offensive master, he's pretty damn good. High Ca with a spell that straight up paralyzes things? Yes please! A spell that can do dg with blasts and heal at the same time...hellz yeah. Super buffed punk zombies are nice too .

@Calmdown

Just to clarify, I didn't say ressers couldn't win tournaments, I said "a ton of tournaments" poorly worded, I agree...but I meant that as a roundabout way of saying "are they going to consistantly top the tournament charts"...which, it seems we both agree is unlikely.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Necromorph

[Cornelious1424]

I strongly disagree about Seamus being poop. When played right he can just shut down the enemy crew.

[Math Mathonwy]

I strongly disagree about Seamus being poop. When played right he can just shut down the enemy crew.

Against Dreamer? I'm... a bit sceptical.

It's really kinda strange. In book one Seamus's big thing was terrifying shenanigans and Nicodem's was summoning. Come book two, and both have been cuddled to oblivion by giving all other factions such a vast number of models that are immune to those things. You can't rely on either as every faction can produce a very competitive list that can ignore your strength completely.

You can of course adapt. Change the focus and you can win still. But it kinda feels like Wyrd changed horses in the middle of the race there and I wonder whether it was a conscious decision.

[ravenborne]

I don't think we as rezzer players really know the answer to this question yet. I think rezzers require far more skill than other factions, and I will go so far as to say Neverborn are somewhat easy mode. I dont mean to insult the players playing them, because a good player will use a faction that reduces his chances of things going wrong. However, once you learn the way to play a Neverborn Master, just keep doing the same thing and its effective.

Rezzers on the other hand require constant adaptation to the enemy. Some times you need to start summoning. Sometimes you need to go all aggro.

The other thing is rezzers play a defensive strategy and neverborn play an offensive strategy (mostly). Its very hard to make the defensive style pay off in a short series of turns. This is where we rezzer players have to figure out how to both hold back the offensive tide and turn the game around for a win. That's hard in any game. However I think the players that get it figured out can be highly competitive.

Edited September 1, 2011 by ravenborne
let me say, most rezzer model stats reinforce a defensive strategy, not that they have to be played that way.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I would disagree that NB are easy mode. Playing them can be very complex and challenging. I have never disguised the fact that I think NB have a serious edge coming into a game. But it is exactly the thinking that NB are easy mode and "your" faction takes real skill to play. I don't mean your as in you personally, I mean it as a reference to whoever usually makes the argument. This is what I'm sure really gets on the NB players nerves and is one of the reasons that there is such acrimony in these discussions at times. Competitive NB are not easy mode, winning still takes some skill to properly utilize the tools they give you. It is just that the tool box given to NB often has an extra hammer and a few other odds and ends. You still have to know how to use them

I think again the design philosophy is what bites the Ressers. We are defense oriented, usually slow, usually have low to average Defense, and many abilities to lessen the dmg we invariably take. The issue is that this "defensive" design isn't set up to win games as they currently play out in the game's design. Also my own opinion is that having a def of 6 or higher is much better than having hard to wound, hard to kill, or any other defensive oriented ability. Getting hit less by fewer models is a better ability than what we currently have.

But you also have to understand that the philosophy behind our design goes further in how our models come through playtest. Because summoning, however you choose to go about employing it, is such a powerful ability it, I would suspect, is more carefully looked at for issues of power than other abilities that on the surface don't seem to disrupt the game as much. I totally agree with this scenario, it just means you shouldn't expect any game breaking abilities to ever be given to the ressers because of it.

And the biggest issue of all, we lack machine synergy. This is the biggest issue among ALL the current crews that are not considered "competitive". If no crews had machine synergy the game would be fine as is, but as some crews do have this it makes them the competitive ones. What do I mean when I say "Machine Synergy"? It means that if you look at the models in a crew as a whole they all form interlinked parts that together make all the models in it better than they would be alone. It is like constructing a magic deck in CCGs. A magic deck that has every card chosen for how they work together will almost invariably beat a deck that just has stuff in it that is solid, but that doesn't have multiple synergies. Let's look at the prime crew of Machine Synergy, The Dreamer.

The Dreamer's crew likes to have nightmares. So firstly the crew as a whole is going to be completely immune to many effects that can only take hold on living models, like Terror. They will not leave corpse counters of any kind for crews utilizing them as a resource, so no inadvertant helping out of ressers or grow lists. Nightmares also allow the Dreamer to essentially have a 5 SS cache because of the Dreamer's ability to get a SS back for the first 5 nightmares he hires. So in a 35 SS game the dreamer is going to bring 32 SS worth of minions AND will have 8 SS in his cache. Next point of synergy, the dreamer can give friendly nightmares Terrifying. He can also bury and unbury them as he chooses. This doesn't only work for his bury, if you have an ability that will bury an opposing model, if the Dreamer doesn't like it *pop* he and his daydreams just negate your ability. Next point the dreamer can ferry his entire crew around very rapidly. When you fight against the Dreamer, assuming he is a good player, you will never get to fight a battle he doesn't choose because of the way his crew can entirely move around the board. Next point of synergy Nightmares protect the Dreamer because o his shadowy form. If you want to kill the Dreamer you have to go through his nightmares first, and do it an kill him in one go, or he will just run away further than you can stop him. Next point of synergy, Most nightmares cover each other's weaknesses. The NB don't often have good ranged attacks, so alps have the tarnkaps, and stitched can put up fogs if blocking from shooting is needed. Lelu and Lilitu not only do the belle/punk zombie combo better, and really they should because they each cost more than the belle and punk, but they support each other supremely well in both what they do and in healing each other. Add all this together and you have a crew of very solid threats that has unparalleled manuverability, and the pieces interlock together and work like a machine. And that is why the NB have the edge more than anything else. Ressers don't have anywhere near this level of synergy. We certainly do have it, just not on that level, which is why we still can win, but it is going to take alot more coordination and luck to make your crew of individual threats work against a well tuned machine.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Also my own opinion is that having a def of 6 or higher is much better than having hard to wound...

Not just your opinion. As it currently is, Hard to Wound is really only beneficial to models with a large number of wounds (i.e. 12) and low Df (4 and under), since those models are going to the ones usually incurring duel totals with a difference greater than five. Sticking Hard to Wound on some shlub with 6 wounds or less means he's still going to get aced in two hits.

[osoi]

Ressers are indeed competitive, and I have had a great deal of success with them. Yes I may be one of the stronger players around but I think once you work a few things out you can make them very competitive.

Seamus is far from poop, he is very flexible and while his power level does drop off a little against non living models he still has plenty of tricks up his sleeve and his crew can be adjusted to suit as well. aSeamus definately brings another focus as well. Hes a very good master to bring against other ressers too.

McMourning, generally great against the Guild and Arcanists due to armour and once again there are enough tricks in him to be good against other factions as well. His biggest drawback is Wp, which makes matchups against the Neverborn a little tougher than for the other Ressers.

Kirai, regarded as the most competitive resser master and I will not say that she is the best but she certainly is good. Her bad matchups area against a lot of magic but you can play around it however more often than not the Vikkys will tear you a new one. She is our assassination master.

Nicodem, I have only just picked him up and intend to play a lot with him over the next few months or so and see him as being extremely strong but he is not there just for summoning, thats just something else he does well (but still an expensive resource) a more elite crew could/should be more worthwhile than a bazillion canine remains

In summation others have said it more eloquently than I, but the Ressers are a competitive force in Malifaux, you just need to look into them a little harder than some of the other Factions.

I remember before Rising Powers there were cries that the guild were OP, and now the Neverborn ... each faction has a different focus and each have an equal chance of winning a game if the skill level of the players is similar. It is the skill and experience of the player that is more important than the faction used.

[Calmdown]

Ressers are indeed competitive, and I have had a great deal of success with them. Yes I may be one of the stronger players around but I think once you work a few things out you can make them very competitive.

In summation others have said it more eloquently than I, but the Ressers are a competitive force in Malifaux, you just need to look into them a little harder than some of the other Factions.

This is not particularly directed towards you, but "you just need to be a better player to get them to work" does not mean that they are on an equal competitive curve to other factions.

The reason you have to be better to win with them is because they're weaker. Rezzers have various disadvantages that have already been mentioned; and yes it's possible to win with them if you outskill your opponents, but it's possible to do that with *any* crew. When we're talking about comparing crews on a competitive level, there's just no way that certain crews can compare to others if the random conditions are reasonably equal.

Basically you can condense it down to one simple question:

Is Nicodem as good as the Dreamer?

[Math Mathonwy]

each faction has a different focus and each have an equal chance of winning a game if the skill level of the players is similar.

That's a very bold claim, you know. I'm not at all sure that it is correct or supported by any sort of evidence, really.

[Math Mathonwy]

This is not particularly directed towards you, but "you just need to be a better player to get them to work" does not mean that they are on an equal competitive curve to other factions.

Note that that isn't his claim. His claim is that, given similar skill levels, Ressers are just as good as Neverborn.

[Calmdown]

Note that that isn't his claim. His claim is that, given similar skill levels, Ressers are just as good as Neverborn.

That's even worse. I don't think there's anyone that really agrees with that for Rezzers as a whole.

[Q'iq'el]

Not just your opinion. As it currently is, Hard to Wound is really only beneficial to models with a large number of wounds (i.e. 12) and low Df (4 and under), since those models are going to the ones usually incurring duel totals with a difference greater than five. Sticking Hard to Wound on some shlub with 6 wounds or less means he's still going to get aced in two hits.

If you have high Df and low wounds, you benefit just as much if not more. Even killy models tend to do 1~2 damage on the LoW end and 3~4 at Moderate levels. If you reduce that by 1, you have 25~50% damage reduction. From my experience at least, Df above 7~8 means the damage goes above moderate only when opponent cheats it very high or puts a Soulstone into it.

If you think about it in wider terms, requiring 2 strikes for kill, rather than 1 (reducing 6 damage to 5) means your opponent has to use one more AP on attacking you. That too is quite a gain, especially if you hope to tarpit something killy (which is what Rezzers do most of the time).

Edited September 1, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Jonas Albrecht]

If you have high Df and low wounds, you benefit just as much if not more. Even killy models tend to do 1~2 damage on the LoW end and 3~4 at Moderate levels. If you reduce that by 1, you have 25~50% damage reduction.

If you think about it in wider terms, requiring 2 strikes for kill, rather than 1 (reducing 6 damage to 5) means your opponent has to use one more AP on attacking you. That too is quite a gain, especially if you hope to tarpit something killy (which is what Rezzers do most of the time).

If you have high Df (7+), you're going to benefit from that much more than Hard to Wound. Infact, those high Df stats are almost like having Hard to Wound anyway, since they tend to mean Duel differences of <5 already. What Hard to Wound does best is limit the impact of a low Df score.

My example isn't that Hard to Wound is causing the model to die from two Strikes instead of one, it's that you're usually going to end up using the same amount of strikes to a kill a model with Hard to Wound as without.

[Calmdown]

If you have high Df and low wounds, you benefit just as much if not more. Even killy models tend to do 1~2 damage on the LoW end and 3~4 at Moderate levels. If you reduce that by 1, you have 25~50% damage reduction. From my experience at least, Df above 7~8 means the damage goes above moderate only when opponent cheats it very high or puts a Soulstone into it.

If you think about it in wider terms, requiring 2 strikes for kill, rather than 1 (reducing 6 damage to 5) means your opponent has to use one more AP on attacking you. That too is quite a gain, especially if you hope to tarpit something killy (which is what Rezzers do most of the time).

High def makes you a lot harder to kill than H2W does (or armour, etc) especially since H2W normally comes with low defence to boot. Even if you assume that most hits only deal weak damage, the likelihood is that low Df models with H2W 1 will have their H2W negated by the difference in attack flips, whereas a higher Df model (even if it's only higher by 2-3 points, which is a lot) is likely to have a -ve flip on the damage anyway, AND has a better chance of not being hit at all.

This is why when people make glass cannon arguments for some models, I think their logic is flawed. Rezzers are just as easy to kill as anybody else. The only thing they have going for them is their high Wd in most cases (like Belles at 8 are pretty tough), H2W is a lot less useful. The same goes for models with healing abilities or low armour, that don't have great Df or Wd to go with it; healing doesnt help if you're dead (a big downside to Seamus and McMourning), and armour does nothing if you get plinked to death because every single attack hits you (eg Ice Golem, against whom people almost always get straight flips).

In addition, H2W doesn't protect you against things like Poison, Paralyzing attacks, auto-kill triggers, etc; models with higher Df outright ignore these abilities when they're not hit, whereas low Df models will always take their effects.

Things that do automatic damage such as Black Blood and blasts also reduce the effectiveness of H2W as your model's supposed way of keeping itself on the table. Whilst they obviously work on high Df models in the same way, when you consider H2W as a function that makes each Wd on the model harder to remove, it again becomes obsoleted by these damage types.

I'd take Df 6 with a decent amount of Wd any day over H2K/H2W/Armour/etc. This is a major point where Rezzers fall down (no pun intended).

You can condense this question down very easily - who is harder to kill, Perdita or Seamus? If you've played against both, you know the answer is plain. 4 Df (even before we get to her trigger) beats the hell out of H2W2 and H2K, even though she has 4 less Wd. And lets not even get on to Lilith.

This is also, conversely, another reason why Kirai is the best Rezzer master. Spirits tend to have much better Df than Undead (being pretty much 5 across the board for your combat spirits), usually coupled with a medium wound amount and Spirit (and terrifying, when it works), meaning their defensive engine is not quite as lacking as other Rezzers'. Of course magic means their average Wd stats become an issue, but at least they aren't crippled by bad Df when people with magic are targeting them.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Calmdown

[Cunning]

Models with high defense ignore black blood? How's that now?

I agree about df though. Lilith is insanely hard to kill with normal weapons with Df8 and causing -2cb if you miss her in melee.