Competitive Rezzers

[AlpBomb]

Plenty of Neverborn in my community, thinking about playing Rezzers for the next couple of months to really try them out and see how the stack up, but it really seems like they lack the punch of some of the other factions.

I have all 4 and McM was my original master, but with so many cool toys for other factions I drifted off.

Does the Rezzer community feel like they can hang with the other factions?

What about master strength? How would you rank them on competitively? A few remarks I have seen list Kirai at the top, but again, I like McM.

Thanks!

[Cornelious1424]

I think they can, without a doubt. I'm somewhat doing the same thing in my group, which is has a good number of Guild players. I'm trying to prove that Ressers are a good faction and not to be taken lightly, doing pretty well so far lol.

[Dirty Moses]

1

Edited September 1, 2011 by Dirty Moses

[Iamwyrd]

Ressers are good. My favorite is nicodem just because he can summon stuff to help him out in different situations. Mcmorning is very good as well, and I just think you need to play to your strategies and you can win.

Every faction can win, neverborn are just.......gooder? at it. Lol

[Calmdown]

Personally, I dont feel that Ressers are competitive.

We have one master that is capable of competing with any master out there, Kirai. Although she's not the best master against every other master, I think she's one of the only masters who can literally take on all comers (except one, I'll explain soon) and be at an advantage. She has such incredible mobility, survivability, attrition powers and model selection that she literally can beat everything....

...except the Dreamer.

Assuming equal skill - which is, of course, not always the case - Kirai really struggles against the Dreamer. He's basically a condensed version of everything she does; less utility, but faster moving and harder hitting and with better control. This problem is really compounded by the fact that all of the other Rezzer masters are even worse against Dreamer. Follow this up with the fact that on top of this, Rezzers also have a hard time against Pandora and when you get to competitive levels, right now your faction is basically hosed by the most-played faction in the game.

I think Rezzers are a great faction all round, with some great masters (Kirai and McMourning - Seamus is very overrated but will get a lot better with an Avatar, Nicodem is outright bad except in corner cases and Molly isn't capable of running a crew) but in the current competitive metagame, at least in the UK, I don't think it's a faction that you could consistently win with all things being equal. Not to say it cant win, or even consistently do wel* - but it's not quite there for being a top faction, mostly because it's hosed by the faction that *is* the current top of the pile.

[Hookers]

also someone only playing Seamus came in second in the first NOVA open tournament. I came in second in the 35 point tourney (not the masters) at gencon with rezzers as well.

I think rezzers are fine competitively. The only games that I've lost that I can't easily point to a mistake I've made have been against the dreamer. he kind of beats up everyone though...

we could use more pulse damage (from nonliving models)

[mythicFOX]

but in the current competitive metagame, at least in the UK, I don't think it's a faction that you could consistently win with all things being equal.

Could I ask how many UK event's you've attended CalmDown? As someone who's been to probably >80% of the UK events I think you're missing something major.

The top UK players are shifting away from Neverborn, over recent months there's been an increasing trend of the better players difting to other factions.

Assuming your above analysis on the Resser / Neverborn matchup is correct then now would be the time for a strong Resser player to move in and do well.

All IMHO.

[magicpockets]

The top UK players are shifting away from Neverborn, over recent months there's been an increasing trend of the better players difting to other factions.

Iirc the "Top 5" dont even play Neverborn any more? And re Rezzers, I bet I could win sh*t with them - they've got some cool things available to them.

[mythicFOX]

AFAIK I'm the last one in the top five to ten and I'm moving on after the GT for 2012.

[magicpockets]

AFAIK I'm the last one in the top five to ten and I'm moving on after the GT for 2012.

I suppose when you just bought a nightmare Dreamer you should get some use out of it Not looking forward to that at Leeds if I'm honest

[Cunning]

I think he's running Zoraida at the moment. The dreamer being retired after the white wash that was the stockport tournament.

[mythicFOX]

I'm keeping him on the tray until the end of this year but I've no plans to put him on the table at Leeds.

[Cunning]

So we may be seeing him at the GT then? Oh dear.

[Wulfen]

The top UK players are shifting away from Neverborn, over recent months there's been an increasing trend of the better players difting to other factions.

Is there a reason for this? This statement makes me think that it strengthens the argument that Ressers aren't competitive when compared to Neverborn. I can only think of one reason the top players are shifting away from Neverborn, and not because they see them as weaksauce.

To the OP: I say play what you want. If you're trying to be hyper-competitive, you'll need to look at Neverborn, I think. But if you're only playing casual games, and 4 out of 5 local players are Neverborn, as an example, then you'd be fine playing Ressers. Unless your friends are keeping records or something...

Edited August 31, 2011 by Wulfen

[Calmdown]

Could I ask how many UK event's you've attended CalmDown? As someone who's been to probably >80% of the UK events I think you're missing something major.

The top UK players are shifting away from Neverborn, over recent months there's been an increasing trend of the better players difting to other factions.

Assuming your above analysis on the Resser / Neverborn matchup is correct then now would be the time for a strong Resser player to move in and do well.

All IMHO.

The top players are shifting away from it to prove that other factions can win, which is unfortunately a fallacy. If other factions can win consistently in an equally skilled environment, you need to continue playing Neverborn until a clutch of new non-Neverborn players comes along and proves that by winning tournaments. You "top players" as you put it winning with other factions just proves that the pool of good players hasnt grown yet.

Lets be clear though, I dont think other factions are incapable of winning, far from it. This is a game of chance, anything can win, regardless of power level. But if you want to be truly competitive and have consistency on your side, the only real choice is Neverborn and to a slightly lesser extent Outcasts, as they're the only factions that can't be hosed by good meta-play.

[ukrocky]

prove that other factions can win, which is unfortunately a fallacy.

Arcanists won at the weekend just been in a field of over half neverborn....other factions winning isn't fallacy, it's proof the game is more balanced than your current view Calmdown

[Calmdown]

Arcanists won at the weekend just been in a field of over half neverborn....other factions winning isn't fallacy, it's proof the game is more balanced than your current view Calmdown

Actually if one tournament is proof of that, than my spreadsheet of the previous 10 tournaments and the Neverborn top 4 & win percentage therein are more than enough proof that Neverborn are totally broken, and we both know that not to be the case

But please, when commenting on posts, dont comment on half a sentence. The fallacy is that winning with a faction doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with another.

[mythicFOX]

This is turning into the exorcist thread all over again.

Let's not go there please.

[Brasidas]

Let's not go there please.

How about this: Let's say AlpBomb plays most of his games against three friends (with maybe another dozen or so scattered about his community).

Those three friends have primarily been fielding Sonia, Hoffman, Ramos, Pandora, and Kirai.

Given those likely matchups, at 40SS, who would you choose as your master, what would a sample list be, and why would you make the choice you did?

You know, hypothetically speaking...

[Wulfen]

Arcanists won at the weekend just been in a field of over half neverborn....other factions winning isn't fallacy, it's proof the game is more balanced than your current view Calmdown

How did Stockport go?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Rezzers can definitely be competitive. That said they don't have the edge that NB or outcasts have. If you are a skilled player you can definitely win with them. If you are only an average player you have a little bit of a struggle on your hands. The design philosophy behind Rezzers makes them supposedly very resilient and replaceable. We also have, I think, the largest share of Terrifying models in the game. There are weaknesses with these strengths however.

Resiliency: Almost all of our models are either spirits, hard to wound, or hard to kill, sometimes with multiple traits from this list. The issue with this is that Resser minions tend to had average to low Def. So our minions are on average easier to hit than other factions, but those hits should statistically do less dmg. The problem with this is that it means that we are still being hit, we still take dmg. With average to low Def, more opposing models with lower CB scores are still able to hit us so that dmg piles up fast. I would argue that a Higher Def # actually contributes to a more resilient model. This isn't to say we don't have any solid models, Rotten Belles with 8 wds are very good value for money even if their Def is 3.

Replaceable: One of the core bedrocks of the Rezzers. Rezzers are able to summon new models. Every master has the ability to gain new models in some way. The way to best utilize this ability is a subject open to argument and personal preference. The issue here is that the most efficient use of these abilities is to get the raw materials for them from the opponent's models. Unfortunately, you can't in anyway count on this. Too many commonly used models in the game are not undead or living (or spirits in Kirai's special case). Constructs and Nightmares don't give you anything useful, and a great deal of the most commonly used models are one or the other of these. Add to this the fact that the few remaining crews that will bring a majority of models you can get resources from also often have either A: abilities to use the counters themselves (Black Blood Shaman, Sillirids, other ressers, etc...) or B: abilities to destroy counters (Guild Hounds, Lady J, Exorcists, etc...)

Terrifying: Terrifying is a mediocre ability that is best looked at as a card control ability. Most Terrifying abilities are around 10-13 WP checks, so very few models will have trouble getting past Terrifying if they need to. It does however require they potentially burn cards to do so, so the ability is useful, and if terrifying worked on everything that didn't have Terrifying it would be about as useful, perhaps a little more so because of the potential fall back effect, as Irresistible. The issue, once again, is that Terrifying only affects living models. There is a very limited selection of "Living" models that are not masters, most masters being able to just laugh off the target number, that are included in crews. Living, as a trait, is probably the least used trait in the game given the total numbers of undead, constructs, spirits, and nightmares in the game. Also the fact that most of the very solid and popular choices share these traits makes them more common in games than sheer # of models would indicate.

The biggest issue you will encounter as a resser player, however, is lack of synergy. Rezzers, faction wide, don't have that many great synergies that turn their crews in large machines. We do have some good ones, like pairing a Belle with a Punk Zombie, but nothing that really synergies across multiple models along the lines of the "Filth" list, or the puppet hit squad lists, or Grow lists, etc... This means that while we do have some very seriously good models a resser crew is more like a series of individual threats then an efficient machine.

Overall, especially given how new the game is, Malifaux is one of the most balanced miniatures games on the market. If you sit down at a table with any faction the game really isn't over from faction selection, you often still have a chance. So Ressers can definitely do well, you just won't often have an edge going into the game that some other factions will start with.

[magicpockets]

How about this: Let's say AlpBomb plays most of his games against three friends (with maybe another dozen or so scattered about his community).

Those three friends have primarily been fielding Sonia, Hoffman, Ramos, Pandora, and Kirai.

Given those likely matchups, at 40SS, who would you choose as your master, what would a sample list be, and why would you make the choice you did?

You know, hypothetically speaking...

Not sure I understand but if you mean which of those would I rock against "AlpBomb" I'd say Hoffman = I2I is a bitch for Alps.

Big long post about Rezzers

This is a very well reasoned and articulated post *tips hat*

[Math Mathonwy]

Rezzers can definitely be competitive. That said they don't have the edge that NB or outcasts have. If you are a skilled player you can definitely win with them. If you are only an average player you have a little bit of a struggle on your hands. The design philosophy behind Rezzers makes them supposedly very resilient and replaceable. We also have, I think, the largest share of Terrifying models in the game. There are weaknesses with these strengths however.

Resiliency: Almost all of our models are either spirits, hard to wound, or hard to kill, sometimes with multiple traits from this list. The issue with this is that Resser minions tend to had average to low Def. So our minions are on average easier to hit than other factions, but those hits should statistically do less dmg. The problem with this is that it means that we are still being hit, we still take dmg. With average to low Def, more opposing models with lower CB scores are still able to hit us so that dmg piles up fast. I would argue that a Higher Def # actually contributes to a more resilient model. This isn't to say we don't have any solid models, Rotten Belles with 8 wds are very good value for money even if their Def is 3.

Replaceable: One of the core bedrocks of the Rezzers. Rezzers are able to summon new models. Every master has the ability to gain new models in some way. The way to best utilize this ability is a subject open to argument and personal preference. The issue here is that the most efficient use of these abilities is to get the raw materials for them from the opponent's models. Unfortunately, you can't in anyway count on this. Too many commonly used models in the game are not undead or living (or spirits in Kirai's special case). Constructs and Nightmares don't give you anything useful, and a great deal of the most commonly used models are one or the other of these. Add to this the fact that the few remaining crews that will bring a majority of models you can get resources from also often have either A: abilities to use the counters themselves (Black Blood Shaman, Sillirids, other ressers, etc...) or B: abilities to destroy counters (Guild Hounds, Lady J, Exorcists, etc...)

Terrifying: Terrifying is a mediocre ability that is best looked at as a card control ability. Most Terrifying abilities are around 10-13 WP checks, so very few models will have trouble getting past Terrifying if they need to. It does however require they potentially burn cards to do so, so the ability is useful, and if terrifying worked on everything that didn't have Terrifying it would be about as useful, perhaps a little more so because of the potential fall back effect, as Irresistible. The issue, once again, is that Terrifying only affects living models. There is a very limited selection of "Living" models that are not masters, most masters being able to just laugh off the target number, that are included in crews. Living, as a trait, is probably the least used trait in the game given the total numbers of undead, constructs, spirits, and nightmares in the game. Also the fact that most of the very solid and popular choices share these traits makes them more common in games than sheer # of models would indicate.

The biggest issue you will encounter as a resser player, however, is lack of synergy. Rezzers, faction wide, don't have that many great synergies that turn their crews in large machines. We do have some good ones, like pairing a Belle with a Punk Zombie, but nothing that really synergies across multiple models along the lines of the "Filth" list, or the puppet hit squad lists, or Grow lists, etc... This means that while we do have some very seriously good models a resser crew is more like a series of individual threats then an efficient machine.

That was very well said. I agree with all of that - kudos on a very well-written post!

Overall, especially given how new the game is, Malifaux is one of the most balanced miniatures games on the market.

Here's the only part that I have a problem with - that's a somewhat bold claim, you see. Not saying that it is so, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence either way. I wouldn't call Malifaux more balanced than Hell Dorado, Freebooter's Fate, Dark Age, Alkemy, Eden, Nemesis, Sphere Wars, Infinity or most other games I can think. Arguably more balanced than the current editions of the GW big two, though they've kinda gotten their act together lately as well.

Not sure I understand but if you mean which of those would I rock against "AlpBomb" I'd say Hoffman = I2I is a bitch for Alps.

AlpBomb is the name of the OP

[ukrocky]

How did Stockport go?

Wouldn't know, wasn't there...why?

@calmdown - I'm on my phone so can't really post. I read your sentence as, 'no other faction aside from neverborn can win', which is what I replied to and I think any faction can win including ressers, which your

Unbeaten streak with kirai surely proves she's as competitive?

As fox said its not another exorcist thread so instead of 'Ressers can't win because of neverborn', you try and be positive and say, 'Ressers could win by/because...'?

[Wulfen]

Wouldn't know, wasn't there...why?

@calmdown - I'm on my phone so can't really post. I read your sentence as, 'no other faction aside from neverborn can win', which is what I replied to and I think any faction can win including ressers, which your

Unbeaten streak with kirai surely proves she's as competitive?

As fox said its not another exorcist thread so instead of 'Ressers can't win because of neverborn', you try and be positive and say, 'Ressers could win by/because...'?

Sorry, assumed you would know what I meant. I believe at Stockport, 4 of the top 6 were Neverborn, three of whom were Dreamer players. I think a Dreamer player finished first with a Lilith player close behind.

I certainly wouldn't argue with Kirai being competitive, but I think the problem is is that she doesn't represent the faction as a whole. Kirai competitive? Yes. Resurrectionists competitive? Different question, and likely, answer.

I don't mean to derail the discussion here, so I understand where you're coming from when you say that Neverborn shouldn't be here because this is a Resser thread. The problem here is that the question involves competition, and right now that means Neverborn has to come up, as they're the golden standard of competition.