Neverborn Rules Discussion

[karn987]

Karn before I begin I want to clarify, this is not an attack against you.

I won't mention more than the ones mentioned here. You have to admit that Stitched has got one hell of a Slow to Die. The twins are tough in that if you do not take that model down in the same turn, at the end of the turn they heal it almost all the way back up. Add to that the fact that they have above average defense, Regen (Lelu) and Irresistible (Lilitu). In the end it all adds up towards their resilience on the table. Some would say that Coppelius dealing 4 wounds when he dies is a detriment as well.

No you are right, the Stitched most certainly do but it is what they do. They are the exception to the rule for the Neverborn, it's part of their identity. You can add the Waldgeist to this pile to with their decent Armor.

For the twins, they are not really that tough at all. Lelu dies really quickly when you get your hands on him and Lilitu's Irresistible is tough but again AE's. I still say that this resilience is a myth, that they really do not have much in the way of it. It has always been and still is a staple of the faction, Neverborn are in general not that durable. They are hard to hit is what they are.

If we have developed a lot of ways to "deal" with her and we still find her to be "a pain in the butt", then there is a problem. I was one of the players that was really happy when they introduced Ryle, the wording made me believe that he was supposed to be a model that would help against Pandora. Look how far that got...

How is that a problem if that is the meta of the game? It's not just Pandora, it's all over the factions. It's just the way the game is. Look at Kirai, Perdita, Colette, and Hamelin just to name one for the other factions. Exact same boat, just a different style.

As for Ryle, yeah I hear you on that. I wish he was effective against her.

Maybe because they are not unbalanced? Have you used these crews? I have at least given a try to every "power" list out there (against or with), and it always came down to "Does this beat Neverborn?". Our LGS has a lot of competitive players....

Then again I can make this same point right back at you. If they were unbalanced, Wyrd would have done something already to deal with them. The Dreamer has been out for a year and besides some minor tweaks, mainly weakening Shadowy Form he remains as he was. Pandora? Nothing much since her initial batch of tweaks.

Of course I've used them man, I wouldn't be commenting on them if I hadn't. I've made a point of playing every Master and specifically looking for the "OP" lists an digging into them. It's never been "does this beat Neverborn" to me. If you know what your doing, and know your opponents crew you can take up nearly any crew and beat them. Will it always be easy? Hell no, but again that is true accross the entire game.

Talking about the faction as a whole like this really doesn't work. Not all of the Masters are on the same level or even function close to the same way. Lilith is a very very managable opponent and while she is solid, she is not Pandora or the Dreamer. Same for Zoraida. Really what everyone is talking about mainly are those two Masters and some minions. It's not the faction as the whole. There are way to many holes that could be poked into that arguement for it to hold air.

The first time I played Lord Chtulu Bits was against Lilith and I lost 3-2 then lost again against Pandora 8-0. After that I think won something like 13 games in a row against different crews from other factions. They knew what they were up against and these are the same competitive players in my LGS. I may be good but damn if I would take credit for all that.

If we wanted the full picture we would need to know Masters, crews, strategies, and schemes for all those match ups. Malifaux inherently has bad match ups and schemes/strategies that are easy to win for certain crews. My point is, there is so much more to it then just the Crew. Local meta plays a huge factor in this kinda thing. Say you were in my area and started the Dreamer now, things would almost certainly have turned out differently.

I really do get exactly what your saying, but I just wanted to show how thin that kind of arguement is. But this does prove another point against Neverborn, the learning curve against them is often steeper the the learning curve for them. But honestly... that is half the fun of the game and playing against them. They present a different challenge then the rest and I personally love playing against that.

All I am hoping for is that if/when Malifaux V2 comes out, I can play Bishop again and not feel like I am handicapping myself.

Completely seperate issue to be honest... but yeah I'd love to see some of those Book 1 models that have been swept into the corner make a return.

And this is the kind of stuff that keeps me in the game. Wyrd does listen to the player base when it comes to these problems.

Agreed, its one of the main reasons I hang around the forums and have really stuck with Malifaux. If there is a real problem with some Masters/Minions, Wyrd will deal with it. But as a whole faction? They are no more or less powerful then the others.

Edited August 23, 2011 by karn987

[Dolomyte]

Sigh. Players seem to have more issues with my Gremlins than my Neverborn.

Want to cuddle them next?

The Alp Bomb I see as an issue only becuase how it can stack with the Dreamer, otherwise they are only ok as a model. Everything else mentioned does not seem like an issue becuase other factions also have just as annoying tricks and schemes. The issue you may have maybe that the Neverborn is a faction of solid models while other factions' solid models are more spaced out or master reliant, but there are a number of sweet minions in every faction.

Have a problem with Lure take models who are immune to influence. Don't like Kidnap, stop killing your own dudes for body parts.(it's kind of retarded who much other Ressers do that, and yes I play Seamus.)

I can go on with the list and I have not seen issues so warranted that Neverborn as a whole needs to get cuddled. If we start there then I say go after Nino and a large list of other models I don't like.(Heading to work and realized I don't have time to type them all.)

Let's all wait till Book 3 finally gets more distributed and every faction has more choices than now and let's see if you all feel the same.

the Lure list usually has pandora, who strips immune to influence.

posting this without finishing the thread, so a bit stupid of me, but a lot of my problem is with specific combinations of models.

In a vacuum, lelitu is fine. Should she be changed in a vacuum? no.

But in a list with 2 lelitus, nekima, and pandora, she is not fine. she is very very powerful, over the top powerful, and some balance needs to be created.

In a vacuum, alps are fine. should they be changed in a vacuum? no.

but in a list with the dreamer, they are over powered, and need to be toned down.

Just because you can take them in non-ideal lists and not have them break the game, does not mean they should be allowed to break the game when someone builds an ideal list.

[DarcXON]

@Karn

True that it is not Neverborn as a whole that is unbalanced and just those models. Maybe to you it's fun to fight against things that are stronger than you, I certainly like a challenge but when everyone says they are just fine it rubs me the wrong way.

I have slipped up and said Neverborn as a faction when I really meant just those models, I just wish they don't hope the problem goes away when Book 3 goes to the wider community. Tournament play will still see Chompy or Pandora going for the lynchpin model from Book 3 and take them out. I don't expect things to change so drastically because of it.

[karn987]

@Karn

True that it is not Neverborn as a whole that is unbalanced and just those models. Maybe to you it's fun to fight against things that are stronger than you, I certainly like a challenge but when everyone says they are just fine it rubs me the wrong way.

I have slipped up and said Neverborn as a faction when I really meant just those models, I just wish they don't hope the problem goes away when Book 3 goes to the wider community. Tournament play will still see Chompy or Pandora going for the lynchpin model from Book 3 and take them out. I don't expect things to change so drastically because of it.

We are getting some where. Several models have already been identified and I would put a few more choice ones on the list. So this is the "identify the potential problems" part of this. I'd bet money Wyrd has done this internally many times and looked things over.

Stronger than what you/I have? Not really as I see it. You just don't bring a knife to a gun fight as the saying goes. You know what Master your up against so that can give you a big clue into what your going to see on the table. From there it's not that hard to adjust yourself to deal with the potential threats. Look and Pandora, what is the Mantra when facing her? Don't forget your Strategy and Schemes. I like to put new players (after they have a 2 or 3 games under their belt) against her because it reinforces this fundamental point of Malifaux. It is not just about killing or opponent. You can play whole games without killing a single model and come out the winner. Some times the best idea is to play for denying your opponent their schemes and strategies and going for a few of yours. A win by 1 Vp is still a win.

You'd be surprised what changes a new book can really bring. It is so much easier said then done to go for lynch pin models and if your a smart opponent, you make them pay for getting them. Again, its the same if this is Pandora, Perdita, or Kirai going for it. The concept is still the same, if they want your lynch pin model you make them pay for it. But we will see what the real impact will be soon enough. I can already guess at several models becoming the new "hot stuff" and I really don't think they are going to be the Neverborn models.

Edited August 23, 2011 by karn987

[Dolomyte]

Some new talking points

1. People have come in and made the claim that if a list / model is beatable, while it still might be overpowered, its not unbeatable, and therefor you would rather not change the models. What is your thought process behind that? For me. If A can beat B C D E F G H I J K L M N O and only P exists to counter it, A is overpowered and needs to brought down in line with the other letters of the alphabet.

2. Specifically, for those of you who have successfully beaten the alp bomb (I have as well), did you really find it was a fun game?

3. Was that game played as it would be played in tournament. IE you knew you were facing neverborn but not the dreamer? I think if we look at the overpowered combo lists in neverborn with the knowledge we are going to face them they are significantly less powerful, my issue is that in a tournament you can prepare your army for yoru strategy and then either take a guess at the lelitu bomb or the alp bomb. If you prepare wrong your going to get punished, in my opnion.

4. Is nekima or lelitu the issue? if you were to change Nekima's 0 action to adding a mask to only a single model, it would prevent the dual lelitu auto trigger, and I think you can use your control hand to prevent 1 of them from starting a chain on you (with 2 its much harder), plus as Q suggested it would slow down the grow lists a bit. However, Nekima does cost 13 points, would the change to lelitus double take (making them only trigger once per original cast) really weaken lelitu that much?

5. we can discuss the whole 20ss arguement, in reality, its a 32ss arguement, because for the list to be its most brutally effective, you run two lelitus, nekima, and a terror tot who will be sacrificed to summon the lelu if you want the lelitus to not have to heal themselves every turn. However, for that 32 soulstone investment, I've never seen that list lose against someone who was not intentionally aware it was coming and trying to stop it.

6. Stitched are a very powerful five point model. I would argue they are the best five point model in the game. Perhaps discussing changes to them is needed. However, I think adding "this model counts as being killed by your opponent for the purpose of victory points, schemes, and strategies" is a purely game mechanic fix, and no one really seems to have a problem with that.

7. The same seems to be said for the (1) drain souls mechanic. no one disagrees that is a change that is fair? or have I skimmed over somoenes post about that. If someone does have an issue with that change, my only question is how would you feel if you had a tournament come down to victory points and you lost because your opponent denied kill protegee or was swayed in slaughter.

[Dolomyte]

Stronger than what you/I have? Not really as I see it. You just don't bring a knife to a gun fight as the saying goes. You know what Master your up against so that can give you a big clue into what your going to see on the table.

You do NOT know what master you are going to be playing against. you know what faction. If your tournaments have been running a fixed list that is a different evironment altogether. at gencon, and I believe at most tournaments, you only know what FACTION your opponent will be bringing.

If you had to declare a master before crews were built I would change my stance on alot of these issues (not alps)

[Necromorph]

Agree 100% with Math's post on p.3.

Really? We're gonna say that these issues with Neverborn are fine? No...nonono. Are they completely broken? Nope, but definitely not fine.

I agree that alps being insig would be nice, and/or losing the - flip, but they can be dealt with...they're just annoying and the alp bomb is a ridiculously simple tactic that achieves far too much against many crews, imo.

Stitched are really pretty annoying, but because their dg can be cheated and thus is resolved like normal dg flips...meh. Doesn't die is their main issue and needs to be changed so that the opposing player gets credit for the kill, imo. Hell...why did they get an uber form of slow to die? What would be wrong with a 5ss model having S2D instead of some crazy, manipulative reactivate ability?

Lilitu...now really, there are people saying that double take is fine? Look, 90% of posts on these forums where people say "Oh, you have a problem with X model? Well just run Y model and you'll be fine," are complete bulls**t. You can't base the effect one model has on another in a "theoryfaux" scenario. You have to consider the rest of each player's list, terrain, strats, etc, etc, etc. Sure you could say the same for double take, but dt has been repeatedly proven to do very very ott things. Agree that it should be once per turn. Also, no we shouldn't change other triggers IMO. Trigger happy maybe, whirlwind, I don't think so. If double take was only a trigger that could be used in melee then I doubt people would have much of a problem with it.

Kidnap is just....wow. The NB player literally just has to pick models....you don't even need to do anything against many crews. Against elite crews you just kill things like you normally do and get 2 extra vp for it. Yes, NB are very tricky, and manipulative, but IMO they shouldn't have another complete mindf**k aspect. Saying, "Oh, you're facing NB, just take elite models," is stupid. Again, theoryfaux at its finest. It's unrealistic to adjust your crew completely to counter a SCHEME that the opponent MIGHT take...thats nuts. Your strategy, consideration of their strat, with slight faction influence is how the crew selection should really work from what I've seen....yes there's a bit of guessing, but it's better than just handing 2vp to your opponents, or drastically altering your prefered playstyle for a whole faction (I said drastically, you're supposed to alter a little bit to adapt).

As for book 3...no, I don't think the current power levels will really change much. Avatars add a new aspect to the game, but many of them are very situational, and there are not too many that look like they're going to drastically shift anything for certain crews/factions. As for minions, they did seem to bring the other factions up closer to the NB level....in book 2. Neverborn still got some great stuff, and I think they'll remain on top...it seems more like the power gap between 1st and 2nd is a little smaller, but the real jockeying for power positions is happening in the 2nd-5th slots.

[karn987]

You do NOT know what master you are going to be playing against. you know what faction. If your tournaments have been running a fixed list that is a different evironment altogether. at gencon, and I believe at most tournaments, you only know what FACTION your opponent will be bringing.

If you had to declare a master before crews were built I would change my stance on alot of these issues (not alps)

Hmm my mistake. Don't know what game I was thinking of then... *strokes beard and shrugs* my mistake.

Well then again, its the same accross the board. Its going to be the same if your going against Ressers, Arcanists, Outcasts, Guild, and Neverborn. Your either going to worry about what they could possibly be taking, have some catch all choices, or just focus on your Strategy and Scheme.

The number one thing I've learned after playing Neverborn for 2 years... get your opponent to react to you rather then think for him/herself. This thread is full of proof of just how powerful a strategy that can be and Neverborn do a good job of exemplifying this mentality. They are a very fast and aggressive faction which often gets players to start reacting to them or going all out on the defensive. That may be their greatest strength as a faction, they can force you to react to them. But again, that is in the murky context of the faction as a whole but like fragility, it is a rather common trait amongst them.

Lilitu...now really, there are people saying that double take is fine? Look, 90% of posts on these forums where people say "Oh, you have a problem with X model? Well just run Y model and you'll be fine," are complete bulls**t. You can't base the effect one model has on another in a "theoryfaux" scenario. You have to consider the rest of each player's list, terrain, strats, etc, etc, etc. Sure you could say the same for double take, but dt has been repeatedly proven to do very very ott things. Agree that it should be once per turn. Also, no we shouldn't change other triggers IMO. Trigger happy maybe, whirlwind, I don't think so. If double take was only a trigger that could be used in melee then I doubt people would have much of a problem with it.

Again as both a victim and a user of this, I don't see it as a problem It's no more dangerous then a wealth of other things in the game and the fact that your getting bowled over by it time and again mostly likely points to you needing to change your way of looking at it. Players know how to deal with it, the solutions have even been stated in this thread. But is it nasty? yes. But again, this is at minimum, 20ss of models to pull of 1. Reality its 34ss if you want to use 2 and not lose Wds every turn. For 34ss, this just isnt that bad. Really, 34ss Necro and a huge drain on my hand to get maybe 1 model (2 if I'm very lucky). Think of what you can do with that many SS, I know I can pull off equally dangerous things for less then half that many SS and build much more well rounded and solid crews.

Of course it's going to be good against certain crews and individual models, thats the point of a strategy after all. But there are plenty of ways to handle it and the most basic ones still apply! 1) Kill them. 2) Avoid them. Yes, easier said then done but in practice it's not really that hard. But that is just a basic example. When you start geting into crew compositions, the options explode and you don't even need to think about building a specialized list to handle it. You don't need specific models to deal with it, it's as simple as that.

[DarcXON]

But it has been stated that the Nekima Lilitu combo doesn't drain the NB players hand but in fact the opposite player. You also come in and talk about it's ok to be unprepared against NB when you specifically said that NB requires that you come prepared into the fight for them.

Now I just see contradictions in your statements, pull yourself together man! We have been talking about these models having an unfair advantage over many a crew and the combo is most definitely not "fine".

Think about it this way, even if to you something is fine, when the vast majority of the player base is repeatedly bashing on the same models over and over again then there is something wrong there.

EDIT

If in a 35 SS tourney game I can bring an extremely strong combo, I don't care what it costs if it pays itself back. Hell it would just prove that the combo is so nasty that the cost was worth it.

[Mentat_Canis]

Some new talking points

1. People have come in and made the claim that if a list / model is beatable, while it still might be overpowered, its not unbeatable, and therefor you would rather not change the models. What is your thought process behind that? For me. If A can beat B C D E F G H I J K L M N O and only P exists to counter it, A is overpowered and needs to brought down in line with the other letters of the alphabet.

2. Specifically, for those of you who have successfully beaten the alp bomb (I have as well), did you really find it was a fun game?

3. Was that game played as it would be played in tournament. IE you knew you were facing neverborn but not the dreamer? I think if we look at the overpowered combo lists in neverborn with the knowledge we are going to face them they are significantly less powerful, my issue is that in a tournament you can prepare your army for yoru strategy and then either take a guess at the lelitu bomb or the alp bomb. If you prepare wrong your going to get punished, in my opnion.

4. Is nekima or lelitu the issue? if you were to change Nekima's 0 action to adding a mask to only a single model, it would prevent the dual lelitu auto trigger, and I think you can use your control hand to prevent 1 of them from starting a chain on you (with 2 its much harder), plus as Q suggested it would slow down the grow lists a bit. However, Nekima does cost 13 points, would the change to lelitus double take (making them only trigger once per original cast) really weaken lelitu that much?

5. we can discuss the whole 20ss arguement, in reality, its a 32ss arguement, because for the list to be its most brutally effective, you run two lelitus, nekima, and a terror tot who will be sacrificed to summon the lelu if you want the lelitus to not have to heal themselves every turn. However, for that 32 soulstone investment, I've never seen that list lose against someone who was not intentionally aware it was coming and trying to stop it.

6. Stitched are a very powerful five point model. I would argue they are the best five point model in the game. Perhaps discussing changes to them is needed. However, I think adding "this model counts as being killed by your opponent for the purpose of victory points, schemes, and strategies" is a purely game mechanic fix, and no one really seems to have a problem with that.

7. The same seems to be said for the (1) drain souls mechanic. no one disagrees that is a change that is fair? or have I skimmed over somoenes post about that. If someone does have an issue with that change, my only question is how would you feel if you had a tournament come down to victory points and you lost because your opponent denied kill protegee or was swayed in slaughter.

1. Understand where you are coming from agree with the over all statement I don't have a problem because for me I have not had "Competitive" Players in the area so don't know the most OP list as I am the Competitive player and not a tool.

2. Have you ever alp bombed someone and had a fun game its just not enjoyable for either side. I still say Teddy Bomb much more fun and its what 4 models

3. Yes if you guess worng it hurts it also hurts if you enemy guesses worng. Yes I love raspy vs Neverborn but vs Lilith its rough. So no you can't plan to counter all you can plan to counter some.

4. To the only one model hurts because her biggest asset is giving masks to tots, and young so if you changed it to just one it would really change her and make her not close to 13ss. I still think if you change it so she can't doubletake in melee it makes it fine cause its still harsh its just not auto kills with Pandora.

5. It is one list it is rough I am on the fence about changes it needs but I would also like to see the tables people play on in these games because on the pictures of the gencon tables there was very sparse terrain and that helps this list.

6. Stiched are great for 5 points I think everyone agree's but I don't know if they are worth 6. The slaughter thing I have always been if you kill them you should get the points. Personal preferably.

7. If someone is willing to drain souls on a kill protegee great move for them because its your highest ss model and its sacrificed meaning no counters no nothing. If you think your opponent might do that then A. don't announce B. take something else. Its why grudge is also really hard. This is one I think we are just on very different sides of the argument so I will agree to disagree.

P.S. I do love these arguments they show that Malifaux is a growing and robust game with large fan/player interaction and it does boil down to. Pandora, Alps, Twins/Nekima, and Stitched and you really haven't seen stitched be amazing till you see a fast one does not die at wp 8. So with this being said about Neverborn some models will get brought up elsewhere I think Ashes and Dust will once something gets made for him and he has cards. Keep up the discussion just keep it civil.

[Math Mathonwy]

Half agree with you there. If you go in thinking "I am going to lose" then you will.

I go to 90% of my games honestly convinced that I'll lose yet I hardly ever do. Seriously, I can't remember the last time I lost in Malifaux (though obviously that has to have happened during the years, right?). I don't buy much into these zen things, though.

I actually legitimately forget about that olds stuff. I so vehimently refused to play like that way, so when she was modified I had to change next to nothing about my play style with her.

But in that case, yes I agree with you and that those were definitly needed. But then again, that was back in Wyrds first release draft of the game. They've come a long way since at the very least.

Exactly! And that's what I hope happens now.

I seriously hold absolutely zero malice towards Wyrd. I love them! I was at the fore front of the people asking for a version of the rules manual pdf that would work in mobile devices (even though I owned the physical book). There were a lot of nay-sayers in the community, but Wyrd listened to our concerns and acted on them making a flattened version of the book. And this isn't an isolated case. Wyrd do listen to their fans. The rules marshal service is another example of their awesome.

[karn987]

But it has been stated that the Nekima Lilitu combo doesn't drain the NB players hand but in fact the opposite player.

Think about it this way, even if to you something is fine, when the vast majority of the player base is repeatedly bashing on the same models over and over again then there is something wrong there.

EDIT

If in a 35 SS tourney game I can bring an extremely strong combo, I don't care what it costs if it pays itself back. Hell it would just prove that the combo is so nasty that the cost was worth it.

Notice I didn't claim it wouldnt drain the targets hand. But look at it like this, the Lure range is 18" Unless the walk is going to take me into a disasterous location, I don't have to worry to much about failing it. Sure if Pandora is there, I take a Wd, ok w/e. What you do is time it, look for the duel where the Lilitu player doesn't cheat it. They will draw something low eventually and each time they do, there goes a card from their hand. More then likely you have the distance to spare before you reach melee Range. So failing one or two early on isn't a big deal, especially if you want to go forward. But now flip sides and the Lilitu player is trying to make every one of these casting flips a hard resist for you or impossible to resist. I pesonally wouldnt want to take the risk of a low card, so I'll cheat high when I think I need to. Either way, the lilitu player has more riding on it at that moment.

Now once this gets into melee range do things get a little crazy. I admit, I am a fan of Double Take not being usuable if the target was in melee with you. But even then, this is more duels for me to make. If I want to try and abuse Double Take in melee, thats 2 duels per attack. 2 big points of failure, though the Wp duel is the one I really want to worry about. So again, more cards gone from my hand to assure these. Since the victim gets to react to the casting total and doesnt have to worry about it changing on them as can happen in a combat duel, there will be times where you just don't bother to cheat. In the end, it does drain your hand. Unless you have a stupid amount of luck, it will suck valuable cards from your hand and leave you open. Because in the end, this was 2 activations in for you and I still have the rest of my crew to make you pay. If things go my way, hopefully my model will survive but be up in your face forcing you to activate the Lelu and try to finish me off.

But in the end, I now out Activate you and probably have a stronger hand left. It cost me a model, but there is a good chance the rest of the turn is in my favor.

You also come in and talk about it's ok to be unprepared against NB when you specifically said that NB requires that you come prepared into the fight for them.

Now I just see contradictions in your statements, pull yourself together man! We have been talking about these models having an unfair advantage over many a crew and the combo is most definitely not "fine".

I don't see a vast majority of the player base complaining about it. I actually don't see a lot of people complaining about it, especially no more then complain about other powerful things in the game.

Did I say you have to come specifially prepared to fight against NB? I don't recall doing so, but if I did then I mispoke. You don't have to, but of course it always helps to. Especially against some Masters/Crews more then others. I don't believe I have contradicted myself, but it could have happened. The point I was trying to make is you need to come prepared mentally. You need to know your opponents models (or take time before you start to get to know them) and then not let yourself get pushed into constantly reacting.

Please explain to me how this 34ss combo is not fine when put up against a crew of the same ss value? How is it not balanced compared to the Family or Kin alpha strike? How is it not fair compared to the Spirit model generation abuse crews? How is it not fair compared to Desolation Bombing? I can go on and on, but I'm hoping you see my point and it's what still has not been said. How is this combo so over-powered at 34ss when compared to the rest of the game?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but there is obviously something one of us is not seeing on this point. I've given you a very quick run through of why I view it the way I do and I want to know why it's viewed the way you view it.

As a side note, this is assuming your playing on a table with a good amount of terrain. This is not a game for light terrain, it needs a heavy amount of terrain or high powered ranged lists will dominate. I remember arguements kinda like this in the past coming down to players using to little terrain.

Edited August 23, 2011 by karn987

[DarcXON]

Please explain to me how this 34ss combo is not fine when put up against a crew of the same ss value? How is it not balanced compared to the Family or Kin alpha strike? How is it not fair compared to the Spirit model generation abuse crews? How is it not fair compared to Desolation Bombing? I can go on and on, but I'm hoping you see my point and it's what still has not been said. How is this combo so over-powered at 34ss when compared to the rest of the game?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but there is obviously something one of us is not seeing on this point. I've given you a very quick run through of why I view it the way I do and I want to know why it's viewed the way you view it.

As a side note, this is assuming your playing on a table with a good amount of terrain. This is not a game for light terrain, it needs a heavy amount of terrain or high powered ranged lists will dominate. I remember arguements kinda like this in the past coming down to players using to little terrain.

I understand what you have said, I just don't think it's correct. The point we keep bringing up is that 34 SS crew is worth more than the sum of it's part when put in the hands of a skilled player. Nix (among many others) proved the nastiness of this list at the Masters. I have faced it plenty of times and the only time I came close (without using Neverborn) was with my Leveticus and Perdita crews and I still ended losing the games.

EDIT

I can't seem to get through to you so I am going to finish painting my stuff for the NOVA Open. Hopefully will see you there.

[nix]

I am nearly gnawing my fingers off staying out of this conversation and all the flaws I see in the variety of arguments here.

I guess I would just like to ask a simple question though. How large of a game are we playing all these "NB are unbalanced" games at again? Are we balancing at 25, 30, 35, 40 ss? A different level?

And all these statistics are from tournaments that were run based on the way the game is balanced, correct? Declare faction, pick strategy, buy crew, pick schemes? Wait, I asked that already and it was glossed over.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled griping about how OP neverborn are.

Edited August 23, 2011 by nix

[Dolomyte]

Please explain to me how this 34ss combo is not fine when put up against a crew of the same ss value? How is it not balanced compared to the Family or Kin alpha strike? How is it not fair compared to the Spirit model generation abuse crews? How is it not fair compared to Desolation Bombing? I can go on and on, but I'm hoping you see my point and it's what still has not been said. How is this combo so over-powered at 34ss when compared to the rest of the game?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but there is obviously something one of us is not seeing on this point. I've given you a very quick run through of why I view it the way I do and I want to know why it's viewed the way you view it.

As a side note, this is assuming your playing on a table with a good amount of terrain. This is not a game for light terrain, it needs a heavy amount of terrain or high powered ranged lists will dominate. I remember arguements kinda like this in the past coming down to players using to little terrain.

Personal experience only, but any time I've used this combo, with two lelitu I've drained my deck at least once, sometimes twice per turn. The kin are especially at risk due to their low WP, the family is better off because of their high willpower, remember when in melee range they will have a -2 wp debuff from nekima. One game poor ryle came into contact and had his wp drop to 0. he needed to cheat a 12 to beat my 4. which is the issue with the combo. If your a wp 6 model, and you get dragged into nekima range by one lelitu, the other one will be going as a cast of 8 against your wp of 4. So even if the spell just casts with a 4, you will need to cheat a 9 or higher to beat the resist flip. If I flip a 10 or higher its not resistable, and a point of damage from pandora.

Even with 16 pieces of terrain (the number I shoot for) there is still usually enough room to pull this combo off on a good number of things. as stated previously though, in tournaments when a store has to run multiple tables plus demo tables, the terrain is usually the first thing to become lax.

[Dolomyte]

I am nearly gnawing my fingers off staying out of this conversation and all the flaws I see in the variety of arguments here.

I guess I would just like to ask a simple question though. How large of a game are we playing all these "NB are unbalanced" games at again? Are we balancing at 25, 30, 35, 40 ss? A different level?

And all these statistics are from tournaments that were run based on the way the game is balanced, correct? Declare faction, pick strategy, buy crew, pick schemes? Wait, I asked that already and it was glossed over.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled griping about how OP neverborn are.

I am talking about 35 ss scraps, which is the standard I have seen for tournaments in my area and at gencon (masters was a 40ss scrap though)

Yes, these statistics are from tournaments that were run on declare faction, pick strategy, buy crew, pick schemes. or at least gencon worked that. The uk I believe picks 50ss worth of models, which is a tournament format in gaining ground.

I know you are a neverborn player, and I know you used the lelitu list at gencon, if I recall in the gencon thread you even complained about it. what has made you have the change of heart? As a neverborn player myself I feel our faction is a bit above the others, do you not believe that is the case? if so, what makes you think that?

[karn987]

I understand what you have said, I just don't think it's correct. The point we keep bringing up is that 34 SS crew is worth more than the sum of it's part when put in the hands of a skilled player. Nix (among many others) proved the nastiness of this list at the Masters. I have faced it plenty of times and the only time I came close (without using Neverborn) was with my Leveticus and Perdita crews and I still ended losing the games.

EDIT

I can't seem to get through to you so I am going to finish painting my stuff for the NOVA Open. Hopefully will see you there.

Well there comes a time where two parties just can not agree and it's best to simply leave it at that. I am in no way saying this is not a nasty list, we both at least agree upon that. But beyond it, it is up to opinion then. Let's just leave the point there then, there is no good way to prove either side is right.

I wish I was going to NOVA Open, I'd happily play you there and we could see this to the conclusion! We'll have to try and bash heads at another event maybe.

[Math Mathonwy]

I am nearly gnawing my fingers off staying out of this conversation and all the flaws I see in the variety of arguments here.

Nice!

[karn987]

I am nearly gnawing my fingers off staying out of this conversation and all the flaws I see in the variety of arguments here.

I guess I would just like to ask a simple question though. How large of a game are we playing all these "NB are unbalanced" games at again? Are we balancing at 25, 30, 35, 40 ss? A different level?

And all these statistics are from tournaments that were run based on the way the game is balanced, correct? Declare faction, pick strategy, buy crew, pick schemes? Wait, I asked that already and it was glossed over.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled griping about how OP neverborn are.

Careful with those fingers Bill! You need them to move Puppets remember?

I can only imagine how flawed some of the arguements must look let alone actually are. But we can only do what we can and try to discuss this as best we can.

Though there is definitly a lot to be said about the SS size of the games. That drastically changes things and I'm sure many crew builds are stronger at lower SS then others, while others rise to the top the higher the SS's go.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I am going to walk away from this thread and put my trust in the people of Wryd. If players are out there making crazy tough lists with expensive models, I should show you a Hoffman list that is just nuts to play against, and players haven't figured out how to kill a 13 point model with no defensive abilities I don't know what to say.

Neverborn is a glass cannon. If you sit back and let them hit you without a retaliation or a plan to hit models that die quick maybe you should get a Neverborn crew and try it out. There is a lot of finesse needed to play against good players and is in no way an easy button. One mistake your whole crew goes Puff.

[Odin1981]

Ok quick question or two here (treading very carefully don't want to get in a flawed argument).

For dreamer specifically would it really kill the crew if:

Alps smother was brought down to a wp-10 simple duel in lieu of wp-12 and no - given by alps in the ability?

And the game mechanic of buried models essentially having no closing phase changed to actually having one (so no "primed" alp bomb blitzkrieg with your whole crew on the biggest gathering of your opponents closely grouped models)?

You still would have a good crew at least in my eyes with damage potential and durability threw evasion. But wouldn't be able to make say 2-3 models take 4-5 terror 13 and 1 terror 14 test with a failed one running and causing 3 wds per fail via aura of coppelious?

[nix]

I know you are a neverborn player, and I know you used the lelitu list at gencon, if I recall in the gencon thread you even complained about it. what has made you have the change of heart? As a neverborn player myself I feel our faction is a bit above the others, do you not believe that is the case? if so, what makes you think that?

No change of heart at all, I still think the specific way Double Take works should be addressed.

As a note, I consider myself both a Neverborn and a Guild player, and play both fairly regularly. Neverborn fits my play-style more (quick, tricky, lots of combo's), and due to tournaments I 33 Guild games played vs 42 NB games this year (excluding demo's and playtesting).

My opinion, as a whole, is that the factions are all very balanced. I am being convinced on the specific Stitched Together argument my local crew is making, and I have the previously stated feelings about the Double-Take trigger. Outside of that, I do not believe NB is overpowered, even when I have lost to them with some regularity. I have lost just as regularly to Ressers, specifically to Kirai and Nicodem, and I do not hear anyone crying that they are overpowered.

My personal feelings are that Malifaux is one of the most balanced games out currently. Further, I feel that the game is incredibly balanced when played by the rules (correct rules) and as the game structure is presented in the Rules Manual. Did Neverborn get some really cool models and a bump with book 2, yes. I would go so far as to say the bulk of the "cool" models in book 2 would be for Neverborn. I think the bulk of the "cool" models complimenting crews in book 3 are for Ressers.

Further, as someone who plays in a highly competitive environment and runs a large number of events and tournaments (9 tournaments and leagues in the past 12 months) I have seen Neverborn on par with the other factions. I have to wonder how that can be, since we have several highly competitive players in the area who are all fairly equal in skill, and each plays different factions. Ressers, Outcasts, Neverborn, and Guild have all shown strongly in our area. As a matter of fact, we have a local Arcanist player who regularly places in the top 3 at tournament, often 2nd place, and plays with Marcus regularly.

I noticed earlier today that I must be picking the wrong threads in the forum to read. Just picking 3 random posts, I discovered the following about Malifaux (today)

• Critical Strike is over powered
  
• Neverborn break the game
  
• Exorcist makes Ressurectionists unplayable
  
• A quarter of the NB models are simply broken and should be completely overhauled (if you take any 2 posts of changes combined)
  
• Every repeating trigger (Trigger Happy, Whirlwind, Onslaught, double-take) breaks the game
  
• Guild and Arcanists are auto-lose factions in tournaments
  
• Neverborn do not require skill to play
  
• Falling Back should not have neg-flips, its unfair
  
• Paralyze breaks the game irrevocably
  

Come on people... really? Is there a blue moon tonight and everyone is just in the mood to complain?

There seems to be a lot of negativity floating around and I kind of wonder why that is. It almost makes me want to start a thread of "This is what rocks about Malifaux", except Jonas seems to have tried that and a couple of the negative comments above came from that thread.

Sum total... Nix's opinion is that with some very small exceptions (Double-take), Malifaux is a solid game and nothing is Overpowered.

And lets also remember, the Filth List really only works well at 40ss. at 35ss and lower it is seriously hampered.

[Dolomyte]

I am going to walk away from this thread and put my trust in the people of Wryd. If players are out there making crazy tough lists with expensive models, I should show you a Hoffman list that is just nuts to play against, and players haven't figured out how to kill a 13 point model with no defensive abilities I don't know what to say.

Neverborn is a glass cannon. If you sit back and let them hit you without a retaliation or a plan to hit models that die quick maybe you should get a Neverborn crew and try it out. There is a lot of finesse needed to play against good players and is in no way an easy button. One mistake your whole crew goes Puff.

I would love to see your hoffman list. please post it and we can discuss it.

Nekima is a glass cannon, however she has regen 1, and the two lelitus can use their healing ability to heal her an additional 4 at the end of every turn. Can you do 12 wounds in a single round, of course. Also, the lelitus have a threat range of 18 inches. so you will need to come into their range and LOS to attack her.

[Dolomyte]

No change of heart at all, I still think the specific way Double Take works should be addressed.

Perfect, I agree with you completely. Thats a starting point. You also said that your local crew is complaining about the stitched, what about the stitched is their complaint, and what do you think the fix is. also, what do you think the fix is on double take (IE making it so it only works once per original cast as my original idea, or once per turn, or what?)

Critical Strike is over powered

I never made this argument, I disagree with it. I think it can lead to questionably high damage output, but you do need a trigger to pull off the max damage for it.

Neverborn break the game

No one is saying that neverborn break the game, people are saying that neverborn as a faction are better then the others, and that there are some specific interactions in neverborn that create those power discrepencies. (Double take, stitched, and the alp bomb)

Exorcist makes Ressurectionists unplayable

Someone brought that up as a one off, and I think it was answered relatively quickly as not being the case.

A quarter of the NB models are simply broken and should be completely overhauled (if you take any 2 posts of changes combined)

If by a quarter you mean we have discussed changes to

Edit - Anyone else just feel that earthquake? wtf NJ, WTF.

Lelitu or Nekima, Maybe Lelu, Maybe Coppellius, Alps.

thats a solid five models.

Every repeating trigger (Trigger Happy, Whirlwind, Onslaught, double-take) breaks the game

Double take breaks the game when combined with nekima, I dont think the others do because it requires a card flip.

Guild and Arcanists are auto-lose factions in tournaments

No one has said that. the results dont say that.

Neverborn do not require skill to play

They have some easy to play, harder to master crews.

Falling Back should not have neg-flips, its unfair

I've never had something fall back, so I cant really say that. Most of the stuff in the game ignores it.

Paralyze breaks the game irrevocably

I think your picking on a single post here and there, and lumping them in with the overarching problems, some of which you agree with.

Come on people... really? Is there a blue moon tonight and everyone is just in the mood to complain?

There seems to be a lot of negativity floating around and I kind of wonder why that is. It almost makes me want to start a thread of "This is what rocks about Malifaux", except Jonas seems to have tried that and a couple of the negative comments above came from that thread.

Sum total... Nix's opinion is that with some very small exceptions (Double-take), Malifaux is a solid game and nothing is Overpowered.

And lets also remember, the Filth List really only works well at 40ss. at 35ss and lower it is seriously hampered.

[nix]

@Dol, I was picking posts from across several threads, not necessarily arguments in this thread. As I mention, it just seems the "Agnst", if you will, is particularly high today.

And yeah, Earthquake in VA, wow! Apparently it was a 5.8 around Richmond.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/US10/32.42.-85.-75.php

So on the rest, picking and choosing :

You also said that your local crew is complaining about the stitched, what about the stitched is their complaint, and what do you think the fix is.

Lots to go into that really boils down to the local group thinking the model is too good for 5 points.

also, what do you think the fix is on double take (IE making it so it only works once per original cast as my original idea, or once per turn, or what?)

Me? I suggested (I think) in my Batreps that the trigger change so that it no longer triggers when the target is in base-to-base. Thats not to say other solutions would not fix it as well.

Critical Strike...

Neverborn break the game ....

different threads, just pointing out the overwhelming negativity after reading a half dozen threads today.

Exorcist....

Fair enough. The funny thing is I agree the Exorcist HATES ressers. I still do not believe he is in any way mismatched, Over Powered (I dislike this phrase because its sloppy language), or "Broken" (more sloppy language), just that he is built to be the quintessential counter to Spirits and Undead.

A quarter of the NB models are simply broken and should be completely overhauled (if you take any 2 posts of changes combined)

If by a quarter you mean we have discussed changes to

Edit - Anyone else just feel that earthquake? wtf NJ, WTF.

Lelitu or Nekima, Maybe Lelu, Maybe Coppellius, Alps.

thats a solid five models.

So I will keep this one un-edited. I am not pointing fingers at any single person posting. Compiled as a whole across 6 (or so) threads, I have seen complaints and claims of unbalance about the following NB models:

• Lelu
  
• Lilitu
  
• Coppelius
  
• Wicked Dolls
  
• Collodi
  
• Pandora
  
• Stitched Together
  
• Insidious Madness
  
• Nekima
  
• Alps
  
• Dreamer/LCB
  

Thats 11 of 32 Neverborn models from Books 1 and 2. Technically, your correct, its closer to 1/3 of the NB. I guess this could be used to support the argument that NB are overpowered, but I suspect there is another explanation.

Every repeating trigger (Trigger Happy, Whirlwind, Onslaught, double-take) breaks the game

Double take breaks the game when combined with nekima, I dont think the others do because it requires a card flip.

Fair enough... I do not disagree with your feeling here.

Guild and Arcanists are auto-lose factions in tournaments

No one has said that. the results dont say that.

If I can prior to heading out tonight for gaming, I will try and dig up the exact posts that I pulled this from.

snip snip snip

I was picking single posts from a number of threads... that was part of the point of that list I put up. It just seems there is a lot of negativity.

Funny enough, this is not necessarily new, it just seems (to me) its heightened yesterday and today.

I stand by my overall feeling that there is very little wrong in the game as a whole, and the factions are balanced against each other in the context of the game design.