Neverborn Rules Discussion

[Q'iq'el]

From the start I agreed Alp could use getting resistible (i.e. only one Wp->12 test). I disagree with the Lure, because it is possible to oppose it and derail it. But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Wyrd goes with these changes.

1. Would you still take these models? Consider the cost? At 9 SS for 3 alps, up to 18 for 6 (assuming someone doesn't take even more) , the damage output isn't all that impressive, is it? It's the fact one cannot avoid it which makes it good, not the #s. Models costing half that can go in 20ish damage with their triggers.

2. If I were to still take Lilitu+Nekima, as NB player, I'd now throw in a Tot and use it to get a Lelu ASAP. Lelu and Lilitu can go simultaneously, so even if it is just one DT per Lure (or DT till in melee range only), Lelu will still be waiting to finish the victim off before that victim activates, giving little chance to defend yourself? Lelu, actually, benefits from Nekima's debuffs to Wp and Pandora's abilities just as much as Lilitu (esp. if he goes for Vampiric Strike and triggers Thirst).

Does the fact NB player has to use 2 models for the same effect, and probably 3-5AP, makes it right, for the price (or is the combo too expensive now)?

How is having to spend your Control Hand to defend from Lelu different to spending the Control Hand to simply interrupt Lure, which you can do right now?

3. Would Lilitu still be feasible in a crew that doesn't take Nekima? Her ability to Lure would be even further limited and she doesn't really serve any other purpose in such a crew, does she (other spells are highly situational and even now you cannot expect her to kill anything even if you have some :masks to spend in you hand)?

Edited August 27, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Sliver Chocobo]

If Alp where Rare 3 I still think they would still be used, just not bombed in way they used to be, more of support to other nightmares like I believe it was intended.

On the twins, yes I would still take then with Lilith, they have more survivability than most Nephilim, and with Pandora, as an alteritive to Candy and Kade, possible. With the changes to Alps I might even take them with the Dreamer

[AdrianMills]

if lelitu gets cuddled so that she only gets the triggers once then it should happen across the board with whirlwind and trigger happy as to me there is no difference.

The automatic trigger only happens when Nekima is taken as well.

[Sliver Chocobo]

if lelitu gets cuddled so that she only gets the triggers once then it should happen across the board with whirlwind and trigger happy as to me there is no difference.

The automatic trigger only happens when Nekima is taken as well.

The problem is with a cast of 9:mask:mask:crow is almost impossible for the adverage model to resist, that every time you. Fail that's one wd taken in by pandora, on it's own double take isn't the problem, it's being abused too much

[Odin1981]

if lelitu gets cuddled so that she only gets the triggers once then it should happen across the board with whirlwind and trigger happy as to me there is no difference.

The automatic trigger only happens when Nekima is taken as well.

So in other words if its unchanged you have no problem with next book a guild model called "red headed step child ortega" having a 0 action that gives masks to the combat stat of any family model's cbt or casting and always having to deal with santiago and nino attached to the hip of said model getting damn near infinite (cards in hand only resource preventing) trigger happies?

Then throw in a arcanist model that gives masks so raspy always triggers overpower and such. Also a high point model of every faction allowing them to get quasi unbroken chains of whatever trigger it is for that faction.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying its intolerable (close though because if you aren't 1 of 5 or so crews you really lack a option of dealing with said ability) but that particular combo probably should get some type of errata I'm not calling for a cuddle to a bunch of models but maybe that said ability changing to say "target one friendly model" gains mask. To prevent the recursion of a combo that has a absurd high probability of ad nauseuom recast.

[Uncle]

So in other words if its unchanged you have no problem with next book a guild model called "red headed step child ortega" having a 0 action that gives masks to the combat stat of any family model's cbt or casting and always having to deal with santiago and nino attached to the hip of said model getting damn near infinite (cards in hand only resource preventing) trigger happies?

I have no problem with the triggers being able to go off as many times as you flip/cheat a Mask. I have an issue with models handing out the required suits for those triggers.

In the hypothetical situation with the Ortega, I would have a problem with the model, not with Trigger Happy. Likewise, I don't care about Double Take, but Nekima's ability was poorly thought-out.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I have no problem with the triggers being able to go off as many times as you flip/cheat a Mask. I have an issue with models handing out the required suits for those triggers.

In the hypothetical situation with the Ortega, I would have a problem with the model, not with Trigger Happy. Likewise, I don't care about Double Take, but Nekima's ability was poorly thought-out.

Nekima's ability was made with the young and tots growing in mind. How ever the cross over was possibly an over sight, my advice change the trigger to :crows:crows

[Math Mathonwy]

1. Would you still take these models? Consider the cost? At 9 SS for 3 alps' date=' up to 18 for 6 (assuming someone doesn't take even more) , the damage output isn't all that impressive, is it? It's the fact one cannot avoid it which makes it good, not the #s. Models costing half that can go in 20ish damage with their triggers.[/quote']

If they keep their to the test, they are still extremely viable as it makes the WP duels uncheatable which is crazy huge. Are you willing to take the odds that you'll be taking when activating a WP 7 or less model with :-fate? As those are really shaky odds. Losing that AP, taking that damage - those are incredibly effects.

Furthermore, they are cheap, non-insignificant nightmares - that's huge for the Dreamer who is extremely good in doing certain schemes and strategies extremely quickly.

I would take away the extra tests and I would change the extra to a cumulative -1 to the test for multiple Alps. I realize that this is a huge cuddle, so I would add something back - a wound for example. And yes, this would take testing. And yes, I realize that this is somewhat unlikely to happen. The resistance from the NB player base alone would be tremendous.

[AdrianMills]

In the hypothetical situation with the Ortega, I would have a problem with the model, not with Trigger Happy. Likewise, I don't care about Double Take, but Nekima's ability was poorly thought-out.

Totally agree it isn't Lilitu that is problem and if this was changed to stop the multiple a precedent is set that all possible multiple trigger would have to be look.

[Fetid Strumpet]

From my perspective even with the minor shifts I'm suggesting I feel the NB will still be the most competitive faction, and frankly that's just how it is. I only advocate changes which I feel are better for the game as a whole, not because I feel NB need to be cuddled so others can shine. For example, Pandora, I 100% disagree with the design philosophy behind her even though it is how I enjoy playing the game, but I couldn't think of anyway to change her that wouldn't drastically screw her up or radically change the way she plays. So even though I don't find it fun to be in a game with her I can't advocate a change because doing anything to her would, in my opinion, radically alter her and make her play style unrecognizable.

The Dreamer on the other hand, although I feel he is in fact OP, although tricky to get used to, doesn't need or deserve to have the extra SS for taking nightmares. Quite often against a Dreamer crew you are going up against a full utilization of agreed upon SS + 5 extra stones. This is an extra advantage the dreamer doesn't need, and making this small change would not radically alter how the dreamer plays, only how big the crew he brings in is. So this is a change I can support.

[Dolomyte]

Nekima's ability was made with the young and tots growing in mind. How ever the cross over was possibly an over sight, my advice change the trigger to :crows:crows

Anyone have a problem with this idea? I know I said I would not jump back in the thread, but this is just brilliant.

I'm ok with trigger happy because you need to flip the suit to pull it off, or cheat. My problem with lelitus trigger is not that she has it, but that she automatically gets it if nekima is in the list (and using her ability)

I think the above solution would be perfectly fine.

[Odin1981]

I have no problem with the triggers being able to go off as many times as you flip/cheat a Mask. I have an issue with models handing out the required suits for those triggers.

In the hypothetical situation with the Ortega, I would have a problem with the model, not with Trigger Happy. Likewise, I don't care about Double Take, but Nekima's ability was poorly thought-out.

So basically then the easiest solution (if any is even are made) would be to change the wording of the nekima ability to select one friendly model get the built in additional mask (whether it be a tot for growing or a lilitu for spamming 1 model chain casting it. Instead of having it as of now where it is a aura and all in range get said built in mask.

Granted I admit I went off tangeant to show the ability (guild example) but instead of making a bunch of changes to multiple models I was just trying to show that at most they would only have to change one ability on one model (nekima) to reign in that particular "chain" that many would think is in need of fixing.

[Q'iq'el]

Nekima's ability was made with the young and tots growing in mind. How ever the cross over was possibly an over sight, my advice change the trigger to :crows:crows

There's been a thread about that issue back when the Book 2 has been released. We had direct word from the developers, IIRC, that the synergy here is intended and balanced, given the cost of the models involved in the combo. Now the experience might have or might have not shown it to be true, but let's not assume things we already know.

Also let's keep things in perspective. Onslaught from fighty models means 3~6 extra damage on top of normal damage... and then more. With 2~3 procs you go into 20ish damage with many of the models. Lilitu may have easy time with her casts but she'll be doing 1~2 damage with each hit, 4 if she gets really lucky. It's not 2~3 procs she needs to kill, it's 5 or more (depending how far out the target was). And you need just 2~3 cheats to break the chain she cannot possibly cheat through in its entirety.

And let's not forget, that because it's a cast she has to cheat in advance, without knowing if and when the opponent will attempt to resist.

Frankly speaking, DT is far *less* powerful than other such triggers, because it is far more random and resource intensive. That probably is the reason why giving extra :masks to Lilitu wasn't considered OP by the developers, but other such abilities have not received similar boost.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Q'iq'el]

If they keep their to the test, they are still extremely viable as it makes the WP duels uncheatable which is crazy huge. Are you willing to take the odds that you'll be taking when activating a WP 7 or less model with :-fate? As those are really shaky odds. Losing that AP, taking that damage - those are incredibly effects.

I don't like these odds at all, but being able to resist in just 1 duel is huge, if we compare to 3~4 duels with the same odds.

Moreover, there are two sides to the probability coin. As the Dreamer player, if you have 3~4 models you *need* to complete the Strategy and Schemes (as you yourself have pointed out), would you take these odds and risk them early, knowing the target may get lucky, resist and kill your Alps?

Sure, can't be cheated most of the time, but the models with use soulstone would still become off-limits for the bomb (or at least a very risky proposition). In some crews it's more than just the master/henchman. Right know the ability to use soulstone means little, because to waste 4 SS on defending a model from 4 Alps is a very costly proposition. Not so much if it is just a single duel.

In tactical terms, the fact the Alp bomb becomes less reliable alone changes how you apply it... it becomes a tool to hunt lone models, perhaps to remove guards from objectives, but it stops being a weapon capable of eliminating anything on the table. IMO that is a huge change in itself, even if it doesn't show in the numbers.

[Q'iq'el]

I'd also like to add a couple of thoughts about Nekima's role in Nephilim crews. Everybody seems to assume she's there for the Growth lists, but Growth format is both hated by the opponents (so arguably unplayable in friendly settings) and somewhat counter-productive for the NB themselves.

Personally, I have similar disdain to a full Growth list as I have for Canine Remains spam in Nicodem lists - you field a crew which needs to run towards the opponent for a turn or two, which needs to be in the melee before it is shot or magiced to pieces, and you spend these precious Action Points standing there, wounding yourself and growing bigger models that have lower Df and are harder to hide? Hmm?

From purely practical point of view, it's always better to Grow and Mature your Nephilim after you join the combat. Nekima's not only helps the Tots and the Young to do that, but she also helps them with the damage (giving them auto-flay) and adds her own killing power to the deal. Anything that would affect this side of her synergy, would probably mean a big loss to the value of the model itself.

Turning Double Take into :crows:crows trigger seems like a much better proposition, because the impact would be only on Lilitu. Moreover, only Mature Nephilim compete for high :crows in your Control Hand. But again, would you take Lilitu with Nekima then, considering the cost? Or would you go with 2 Lelus? Or would you abandon the combo altogether, seeing as it doesn't really make sense to invest 20, 23 or 27 points into something, which isn't reliable?

[Math Mathonwy]

When calculating the damage from Lilitu's Lure it is important to remember Pandora's effect on it as that is an integral part of the deal, I feel.

Personally' date=' I have similar disdain to a full Growth list as I have for Canine Remains spam in Nicodem lists - you field a crew which needs to run towards the opponent for a turn or two, which needs to be in the melee before it is shot or magiced to pieces, and you spend these precious Action Points standing there, wounding yourself and growing bigger models that have lower Df and are harder to hide? Hmm?[/quote']

To be fair, not getting shot at is trivial with Neverborn since they have access to the ridiculous Creepy Fog. Not saying I disagree with you, just that that one part of your analysis is kinda superfluous in how easy it is to rectify.

I don't see anything wrong with breaking up synergies as long as both models remain viable. Nekima + Lilitu doesn't seem like a vital part of the Neverborn character so I see no problem in it becoming rarer.

[Q'iq'el]

When calculating the damage from Lilitu's Lure it is important to remember Pandora's effect on it as that is an integral part of the deal, I feel.

The thing is, Lelu shares similar synergy, even if it is less repetitive than in Lilitu's case. In any given turn, he can cause 2~3 WP duels and with pretty high stats too (Drink Blood as a result of Thirst is cast on Ca8:crows for example; Realistically speaking it's 6~10 damage before Pandora's effects come in.)

It is one thing to fix Lilitu/Nekima combo to be more fair (assuming it isn't fair now), it is another to get it replaced with something else, just as bad (assuming it wasn't fair to begin with. ).

To be fair, not getting shot at is trivial with Neverborn since they have access to the ridiculous Creepy Fog. Not saying I disagree with you, just that that one part of your analysis is kinda superfluous in how easy it is to rectify.

Getting not shot with a Lilith growth list (or any Nephilim list) is not trivial at all, if you want to take Nekima and Lilitu. There's simply no place to put Stitched in there.

Lilith+Totem+Nekima+Lilitu+3xTerror Tot -> 8SS pool in the standard 35SS game. If you drop Lilitu and go with more conventional growth crew, you can add Blood Shaman and 1 or 2 Desperate Mercs in place of one of the Terror Tots. Still no place to fit Stitched in.

And that's not even mentioning the simple fact, that Stitched do not work for Lilith. They are too slow, they don't keep the pace with her very well and they get no benefit from any of the crew synergies, not being Nephilim.

I can see the Dreamer or Pandora fitting in one Stitched with the combo, but that wouldn't be the Growth crew, would it?

I don't see anything wrong with breaking up synergies as long as both models remain viable. Nekima + Lilitu doesn't seem like a vital part of the Neverborn character so I see no problem in it becoming rarer.

Nekima, Lilitu and Lelu, frankly speaking, is the only Book-2 style synergy for Nephilim. Black Blood shaman is more complex and not as clearly made for Lilith to improve her crew (in fact he seems better off in Zoraida+Nephilim crew, but maybe that's just me). Everything else are The Dreamer/Pandora/Zoraida toys.

If anything was "unintended", as some argue, then it probably was the synergy of Pandora with the combo (while her synergy with the siblings is clearly intended, or they wouldn't get Woe characteristic, Nekima with her extra bonuses doesn't fit in the picture as well) and not the combo itself.

But then, that's the problem with Pandora all over again - you like to have a special kind of crew to fight her to begin with and if you bring an anti-Pandora crew, would it have problems with the combo as it is?

Edited August 28, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Fading Memory]

As I said before, this is Book 1 vs. Book 2 design contrast. And there's clearly a psychological barrier here - the more master requires the players to go out of their faction and the starting box, the more he requires people to choose exactly the right minions for the Strategy at hand, the less popular he is and the more is he perceived as week. Marcus is the clearest example, but so is Som'er and Nicodem clearly isn't the most popular either, despite his relatively high power as a master. Same is true for Zoraida, who is as powerful as any other Neverborn, but the crews she can build are far harder to wrap the head around.

Book 2 crews, despite all the rules they have, are easier to collect, easier to build and don't require much practice to become relatively good with (as there are fewer models to learn). This is then being wrongly interpreted as power difference.

Malifaux reminds me of a game like Magic the Gathering or other ccgs, maybe that is why I like it so much. Part of being a good deck builder is knowing what works good, but also what works better, and what doesn't. Then there is the what counters what. That is hard to do in a ccg when you have no idea what your opponent is bringing to the table; however, in Malifaux we announce our factions. Every faction has a master that seems to be the counter to another faction. If we know what our opponent is most likely to take, we than know how to counter it. It becomes a psychological game of will my opponent take this, then I should counter with this. He might think I will do that, so he will counter with this. Building a crew to counter is about how far do I travel down the rabbit hole, do I take the red pill or the blue pill. How about I take half of each for the purple pill? Malifaux offers this kind of thinking that few other games allow us to. Malifaux allows us control over our fate by knowing the faction we are up against and the strategies before we hire models. Then we get to see out opponents models before picking schemes.