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Neverborn Rules Discussion


Dolomyte

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We have a different thread going about neverborn and their power level (Technically an exorcist thread). In that thread I made a few suggestions. I am curious if the community would have any problem with these ideas?

1. alps - rare 3

2. Lelitu - Double Take - add a line at the end that states "this second casting of lure cannot trigger double take."

3. Stitched Together - Does not Die - Add a line at the end that states "This model counts as being killed by your opponent for the purpose of victory points, strategies, and schemes"

4. Kidnap - Add a line "This scheme must be announced"

5. (1) Drain Power - add a line "This model counts as being killed by your opponent for the purpose of victory points, strategies, and schemes."

Does anyone have a reason this changes should not be discussed and hopefully considered by Wyrd. If you think I took something too far to the left, or it imbalances the game in some way I would really like to hear your opinion on it. If your only reason we should not make the changes is the game is what it is, feel free to post that as well

If anyone at wyrd wants to come on and post their thought process behind the above rules working as they are, and why they should keep working like that, I'm not opposed to listening to that either. Infact I would welcome it.

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I disagree on the alps - rare 3. I think it goes against their design ethos, which is cheap summonable units. Also it will really annoy people that have brought 2 packs. Upping their cost to 4ss has similar issues. If you were going to bring them inline I would have a look at their abilities. That's if they do need bringing in line.

Edited by Ratty
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I disagree on the alps - rare 3. I think it goes against their design ethos, which is cheap summonable units. Also it will really annoy people that have brought 2 pack. Upping their cost to 4ss has similar issues. If you were going to bring them inline I would have a look at their abilities. That's if they do need bringing in line.

They would still be usable in Brawls if they bought 2 packs.

Edit: How many other lists are viable with 6 of the same model? Even 6 dogs seems like it would be a little too much.

Edited by ProdigalPunk
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They would still be usable in Brawls if they bought 2 packs.

Edit: How many other lists are viable with 6 of the same model? Even 6 dogs seems like it would be a little too much.

Hamelin needs more than 6 rats and quite often more than 3 Stolen. Most Levi players have 6 SPA even if they don't start with them. I've seen dogs run at 5 or 6 many a time. I've got up to 5 Gaki and 5 Onryo in one game.. I know people run 2 packs worth of Bayou Gremlins.

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Hamelin needs more than 6 rats and quite often more than 3 Stolen. Most Levi players have 6 SPA even if they don't start with them. I've seen dogs run at 5 or 6 many a time. I've got up to 5 Gaki and 5 Onryo in one game.. I know people run 2 packs worth of Bayou Gremlins.

Let's say the rare 3 is too much of a restriction. Assuming they did need a minor adjustment to their rules. do you have any suggestion as to what the changes should be.

Per the card

Feed on Dreams : Enemy models receiving Slow while within 3'' of this model suffer 1 Wd, even if they are already Slow.

Perhaps the alp bomb would be less disgusting if it read

Feed on Dreams : Enemy models receiving slow while within 3" of one or more alps suffer 1 Wd, even if they are already Slow.

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I had been giving this a hell of a lot of thought and something like this came up.

1. Alps - Insignificant, 2 wounds

2. Lilitu - Double Take - This can only be triggered once per activation.

3. Stitched Together - Does not Die - Add = Immediately end this models activation.

4. Kidnap - Add = Models must be Killed or Sacrificed by the Neverborn player

5. Lelu - Remove Auto Poison, add a trigger (Masks.gifTomes.gif)

6. Coppelius - Remove Auto Poison, Add a trigger (Masks.gif :tomes). Slumber Trigger should be :masks:masks.

7. Dreamer/Lord Chompy Bits - SS Cache of 0 (There is no need for him to have an SS cache of 5, and you know what I mean!)

8. Wicked Dolls - Zoraida should have to discard 2 cards to be able to summon them.

Sadly all of these models are from Book 2. In fact I only posted the most glaring problems.

Edited by DarcXON
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We have a different thread going about neverborn and their power level (Technically an exorcist thread). In that thread I made a few suggestions. I am curious if the community would have any problem with these ideas?

1. alps - rare 3

No. Instead, make it so that multiple Alps generate a *single* damage source, with *single* resist, *single debuff* to Resist flip etc. That way the potential for damage is the same, but the opponent is given a realistic chance to resist it.

It will also make high Wp models (and especially Soulstone users) more of a counter to Alps than they currently are.

2. Lelitu - Double Take - add a line at the end that states "this second casting of lure cannot trigger double take."

No. The opponents have plenty of opportunities to resist the Lure and thus stop the Double Take. The "horror" scenario of model being killed is based on both the presence of Nekima (external factor) and a very poor hand on the victim part (bad luck factor). All that is further balanced by the high cost of the said combo.

It may well be possible that in context of certain crews Double Take combo is hard to counter. It isn't impossible to counter though and, more importantly, in more "civilised" lists the trigger is not an issue at all. So focusing on this particular ability is not where the solution to this should be.

3. Stitched Together - Does not Die - Add a line at the end that states "This model counts as being killed by your opponent for the purpose of victory points, strategies, and schemes"

I generally think avoidance based on self-inflicted losses shouldn't be the way to win a Strategy. This isn't just a Stitched Together problem, is it? Perhaps, rather than compare actual kills, we should compare crew SS size at the end of the Encounter? Perhaps modify the number by the losses suffered to limit somewhat the summoning crews spamming cheap models?

4. Kidnap - Add a line "This scheme must be announced"

No. Kidnap isn't an unfair scheme. Kidnap is a scheme which is designed from the start to put Neverborn opponent on certain footing. You are not supposed to know it's there and you are supposed to worry about it. Just don't bring cheap models and sacrifice them easily. Especially if you complain about Stitched together doing the same to you.

I also think quite a large chunk of this "gripes" has been discussed by Wyrd directly, after Raising Powers were released. How about digging through the old threads and seeing why the very same solutions have been rejected a year ago? That is especially pertinent to the discussion about Double Take and the Lilitu/Nekima combo.

Edited by Q'iq'el
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1 Alps are only moderately dangerous when taking with the dreamer. Where would you stop limiting the number of cheap models. Necropunks and dogs can be as bad alps at times

2 Would you stop multiple triggers for the other models Viks Whirlwind, Nino trigger happy etc

3 I can see your point with this one but it only concerns one strategy.

4 But thats what neverborn do mess with people's heads you don't have to announce some schemes ok you have to take a hit.

5 isn't there already a penalty for doing this

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1. Alps - Insignificant, 2 wounds

How exactly does this change effect the alp bomb in your mind. My concern was always them doing three to six damage to everything. 1 wound and insignificant does not seem to make them any less deadly. I never had a problem killing them.

2. Lilitu - Double Take - This can only be triggered once per activation.

I thought about this as well, but I thought if you limit it to once per natural cast it will still be powerful, but not overwhelming so. I dont mind them attempting to cast lure six times, in reality you should be able to stop that with a control card or two.

3. Stitched Together - Does not Die - Add = Immediately end this models activation.

My issue with does not die is the fact that you get no credit from killing them whatsoever. I did not think the ability was overpowered otherwise, what have you experienced that makes you think this.

4. Kidnap - Add = Models must be Killed or Sacrificed by the Neverborn player

Your still fine with it being secret though?

5. Lelu - Remove Auto Poison, add a trigger for it

I did not think of this, but I somewhat agree with you, currently if he triggers flay he is doing damage 4/5/7 with an additional 2 damage at the start of the models next activation. paired. 6 points is enough to kill about half the models in the game in a single attack. It also gives him a high damage of 9 without red jokering, which is what? third highest in the game. Perhaps this should be discussed.

6. Coppelius - Remove Auto Poison, Add a trigger (Mask Tome). Remove auto Paralyze, Add a trigger (double mask).

I think for 9 points he is about right, especially with his relatively low damage output (especially considering slumber means he does no damage) He does not have a paired attack, and is not wildly defensive. He's a target to be removed for sure, but I would not consider him overpowered. Perhaps I'm wrong.

7. Dreamer/Lord Chompy Bits - SS Cache of 0 (There is no need for him to have an SS cache of 5, and you know what I mean!)

I use to think he could get his cache to 8 via adding nightmares, so I dont really agree with you here. Only outcasts start with a 0. He has amazing synergy, but if you tone down lelu / lelitu and the alps he will not be nearly as annoying in my opinion.

8. Wicked Dolls - Zoraida should have to discard 2 cards to be able to summon them.

I actually think the wicked dolls are no more powerful then the regular voodoo dolls. what makes you want to change this interaction?

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1 Alps are only moderately dangerous when taking with the dreamer. Where would you stop limiting the number of cheap models. Necropunks and dogs can be as bad alps at times

It is the interaction with the dreamer that causes the issue, he is basically an alp delivery system, which in turn makes them overpowered. If dogs caused auto damage which a negative three willpower flip and could be placed in the middle of my army I would call for them to be changed. as it is they need to walk to my army (possibly be summoned there, costing body parts and corpse counters)

2 Would you stop multiple triggers for the other models Viks Whirlwind, Nino trigger happy etc

Viks Whirlwind, Ninos Trigger happy, etc. require you to flip a card. Lelitus trigger can be done indefinitely due to their interaction with nekima. If nekima did not give them a mask to their cast I would have 0 problem whatsoever with double take.

Argueably. If rasputina, one of the trigger happies, etc. had a way to automatically trigger it every single time. i would be calling for that to be cuddled in the same way.

3 I can see your point with this one but it only concerns one strategy.

Some tournaments rely on victory points as a tiebreaker, so it would affect those as well. It also effects a few schemes.

4 But thats what neverborn do mess with people's heads you don't have to announce some schemes ok you have to take a hit.

But only they have a scheme that is easy to accomplish, grants 2 victory points, and does not need to be announced. Its not in the interest of balance to have imbalances like this. I could come up with a bunch of schemes that probably need adjusting (sabotage is pretty much an announced auto 2 pointer) but at least you can try to go block that terrain piece off.

5 isn't there already a penalty for doing this

Not that I am aware of.

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No. Instead, make it so that multiple Alps generate a *single* damage source, with *single* resist, *single debuff* to Resist flip etc. That way the potential for damage is the same, but the opponent is given a realistic chance to resist it.

It will also make high Wp models (and especially Soulstone users) more of a counter to Alps than they currently are.

Would it still be --- flip if say four alps were in range, or are you limiting it to a single negative flip, or are you not having it a negative flip at all. Would it be better to make it an even flip that cant be cheated but could be soulstoned. A negative flip makes it very hard to hit a 12 (typically in my experience)

No. The opponents have plenty of opportunities to resist the Lure and thus stop the Double Take. The "horror" scenario of model being killed is based on both the presence of Nekima (external factor) and a very poor hand on the victim part (bad luck factor). All that is further balanced by the high cost of the said combo.

It may well be possible that in context of certain crews Double Take combo is hard to counter. It isn't impossible to counter though and, more importantly, in more "civilised" lists the trigger is not an issue at all. So focusing on this particular ability is not where the solution to this should be.

Again I disagree with this line of though, just because in civilized lists its not a problem, does not mean its not a problem. You can still trigger it three times, which is about how often you could trigger overpower with a good hand. What would your solution to this list be? If your going to shoot down an idea with a blanketed no, and still acknowledge a problem, I would like you to pose a suggestion instead.

I generally think avoidance based on self-inflicted losses shouldn't be the way to win a Strategy. This isn't just a Stitched Together problem, is it? Perhaps, rather than compare actual kills, we should compare crew SS size at the end of the Encounter? Perhaps modify the number by the losses suffered to limit somewhat the summoning crews spamming cheap models?

I agree with you here, I unfortunately have not figured out a decent way to fix slaughter. If you shift it to the right it benefits ressers, if you shift it to the left it benefits self sacrifice. I do think the stitched should count as the opponent killing them (as well as thinking poison should count for the opposing player) because victory points can and often are a deciding factor in tournaments.

No. Kidnap isn't an unfair scheme. Kidnap is a scheme which is designed from the start to put Neverborn opponent on certain footing. You are not supposed to know it's there and you are supposed to worry about it. Just don't bring cheap models and sacrifice them easily. Especially if you complain about Stitched together doing the same to you.

Im not even talking about sacrificing my own models, im talking about playing a straight up game where I have no idea which of my three models will end up giving my opponent three victory points. Only neverborn have that.

Why should they get that as a 2 victory point scheme when outcasts need to announce they need to have more soulstones then their opponent at the end of the encounter, making it an incredibly hard scheme for outcasts as opposed to the east of neverborn.

I also think quite a large chunk of this "gripes" has been discussed by Wyrd directly, after Raising Powers were released. How about digging through the old threads and seeing why the very same solutions have been rejected a year ago? That is especially pertinent to the discussion about Double Take and the Lilitu/Nekima combo.

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2 Would you stop multiple triggers for the other models Viks Whirlwind, Nino trigger happy etc

Viks Whirlwind, Ninos Trigger happy, etc. require you to flip a card. Lelitus trigger can be done indefinitely due to their interaction with nekima. If nekima did not give them a mask to their cast I would have 0 problem whatsoever with double take.

That is simply untrue. You need to cast Lure every time. Sure, that's really easy to do (4+ of any suit), but it also is a Rst:Wp spell. CC12 is easy to achieve, but also easy to beat. If Lilitu wants to cast Lure successfully, it needs to push it somewhere into TN of 15+, which still isn't hard, but does require cheating 1/2 of the time. At top range, against typical models, you need to cast Lure 3 times to start hitting. 5~6 times for a kill, if the damage flips go well, right? That's 3 cheats, per average, per a single casting sequence... I can't see it being spammed beyond reason, even with two Lilitus around.

Every time the opponent resists the spell, the chain is interrupted and an AP wasted.

Sure, people argue there's up to 6 AP available for Lure in a dual Lilitu+Nekima crew, but that's also very situational and quite rare... and not a problem with this ability alone either. And if you spend 3 or 4 AP to kill a model, is it really different to other attacks? Almost anything can kill an average model in 3 regular Strikes.

Perhaps better solution is to make Nekima give that extra :masks to one model only, rather than :pulse it around herself? Would also hurt the Growth lists somewhat.

Edited by Q'iq'el
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That is simply untrue. You need to cast Lure every time. Sure, that's really easy to do (4+ of any suit), but it also is a Rst:Wp spell. CC12 is easy to achieve, but also easy to beat. If Lilitu wants to cast Lure successfully, it needs to push it somewhere into TN of 15+, which still isn't hard, but does require cheating 1/2 of the time. Every time the opponent resists the spell, the chain is interrupted and an AP wasted.

Sure, people argue there's up to 6 AP available for Lure in a dual Lilitu+Nekima crew, but that's also very situational and quite rare... and not a problem with this ability alone either.

Perhaps better solution is to make Nekima give that extra :masks to one model only, rather than :pulse it around herself? Would also hurt the Growth lists somewhat.

I actually really like that Idea Q. anyone else have a thought on that?

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A good lure chain will blow out your hand in very short order - even 7 cards can go by the wayside within a few bad flips. Leltu's damage doesn't need to be cheated that much once you get someone below half health, but you still need to get them down to that point.

The real question is how much can you cuddle Nekima until you need to start bumping points off of her cost. There's about six or seven different things she contributes to a lot of lists that people dislike or complain about, but you're also paying for each and every one of those advantages. 13 SS is still a LOT to drop, and you can easily swarm a list using Nekima - Lelu - Liltu without much trouble. If that swarming works - that depends.

Dropping cuddles on all 3 of those models at once would probably end up being a bit much, and would just push grow lists a bit harder than they are already, I suspect.

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1. Alps - Insignificant, 2 wounds

How exactly does this change effect the alp bomb in your mind. My concern was always them doing three to six damage to everything. 1 wound and insignificant does not seem to make them any less deadly. I never had a problem killing them.

In my experience the fact that they are a Significant model is more dangerous than the bomb itself. The second part is that you can usually deal 2 damage with just about any crew and you can spread out your crew when fighting the Alp Bomb. Also having Coppelius summon a significant model with little problems is over the top.

2. Lilitu - Double Take - This can only be triggered once per activation.

I thought about this as well, but I thought if you limit it to once per natural cast it will still be powerful, but not overwhelming so. I dont mind them attempting to cast lure six times, in reality you should be able to stop that with a control card or two.

Hmm, I overreacted, you are correct in this.

3. Stitched Together - Does not Die - Add = Immediately end this models activation.

My issue with does not die is the fact that you get no credit from killing them whatsoever. I did not think the ability was overpowered otherwise, what have you experienced that makes you think this.

I don't want to change the intent of the model, just bring it back to balance. If the Stitched were to immediately end their activation when the effect happens a lot of Masters would still be alive in the games I use them. And yes I do use them. I play them in my AZoraida list and I still think it's an unfair advantage.

4. Kidnap - Add = Models must be Killed or Sacrificed by the Neverborn player

Your still fine with it being secret though?

Yes, the thing that makes this Scheme so unbalanced is the fact that the Neverborn player doesn't even have to kill those models. It's basically free 2 VP against lists that work off of killing their own models. Even the Grow lists hurts against it.

5. Lelu - Remove Auto Poison, add a trigger for it

I did not think of this, but I somewhat agree with you, currently if he triggers flay he is doing damage 4/5/7 with an additional 2 damage at the start of the models next activation. paired. 6 points is enough to kill about half the models in the game in a single attack. It also gives him a high damage of 9 without red jokering, which is what? third highest in the game. Perhaps this should be discussed.

Yeah you got it.

6. Coppelius - Remove Auto Poison, Add a trigger (Mask Tome). Remove auto Paralyze, Add a trigger (double mask).

I think for 9 points he is about right, especially with his relatively low damage output (especially considering slumber means he does no damage) He does not have a paired attack, and is not wildly defensive. He's a target to be removed for sure, but I would not consider him overpowered. Perhaps I'm wrong.

The problem with him is not how much damage he does, but what he brings to the table. He can easily stop 3 models from the enemy crew by touching them, and in a game with a handful of models(about 8-9 models in my LGS) that is huge. If he did not also have the ability to Summon Alps so easily or deal 4 wounds when he died, but he does. No other model does all of that. Let alone so easily.

7. Dreamer/Lord Chompy Bits - SS Cache of 0 (There is no need for him to have an SS cache of 5, and you know what I mean!)

I use to think he could get his cache to 8 via adding nightmares, so I dont really agree with you here. Only outcasts start with a 0. He has amazing synergy, but if you tone down lelu / lelitu and the alps he will not be nearly as annoying in my opinion.

Sort of agree, maybe 2-3

8. Wicked Dolls - Zoraida should have to discard 2 cards to be able to summon them.

I actually think the wicked dolls are no more powerful then the regular voodoo dolls. what makes you want to change this interaction?

I don't think that the ability to summon new models in this game, without some need of important resources, is balanced. Especially when those models can make more of themselves and be turned significant so easily.

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Would it still be --- flip if say four alps were in range, or are you limiting it to a single negative flip, or are you not having it a negative flip at all. Would it be better to make it an even flip that cant be cheated but could be soulstoned. A negative flip makes it very hard to hit a 12 (typically in my experience)

Still a :-fate *X, but if it is just a single event, you can first flip the card, then drop a Soulstone on the top of it. Even with a low WP masters hover around 5, so beating 12 isn't all that difficult with the Soulstone. Then you apply some AoE and Alps drop like flies. High Wp models need 4+ or so to beat the duel, so even negative flips don't make it impossible. Really high Wp models beat it on any card but 1s.

In my understanding, it's the fact that beating this duel once doesn't help which really hurts. If your opponent is guaranteed to loose you fear no-one and you'll bomb anyone. If a presence of a single model means you may lose all the Alps, the bomb becomes surgical tool you can use only in the right circumstances. I'm fine with that.

Again I disagree with this line of though, just because in civilized lists its not a problem, does not mean its not a problem. You can still trigger it three times, which is about how often you could trigger overpower with a good hand. What would your solution to this list be? If your going to shoot down an idea with a blanketed no, and still acknowledge a problem, I would like you to pose a suggestion instead.

As I said above, you look at the REAL costs of the spell, the REAL chances of getting it off and suddenly it is not that scary.

As I've already said in my previous post, if you want a long chain to come off, which kills your opponent from afar, you must probably cheat most of the flips, because just meeting that CC12 for Lures is not winning you the Rst:Wp duels. You cannot do it too often that way, because you lose your Control Hand... so you break some of the chains and recast Lure with the 3 AP Lilitu has for casting, right? So now we're speaking about 3AP or maybe even 4 AP (from second Lilitu) used to kill a single model. How is that different or worse than Flurry? Or combat expert?

There's also another balancing mechanic you ignore:

Full AP pool is available to crews that can transport Lilitu to her casting position. That's, basically, The Dreamer or Zoraida (with Obey). The Dreamer will spend his Control Hands so there will be less for cheating. I haven't heard any complaints about Zoraida + THE COMBO, so I can't comment how scary it would be there.

Pandora or Lilith crew, on the other hand, cannot transport Lilitus, so they have to walk. If they walk, they retain cards for cheating, but they have less AP available for casting.

Either way, rarely you get both the AP and the full Control Hand (with the right hands) for casting Lure

As far as propositions, I think I've posted some.

I agree with you here, I unfortunately have not figured out a decent way to fix slaughter. If you shift it to the right it benefits ressers, if you shift it to the left it benefits self sacrifice. I do think the stitched should count as the opponent killing them (as well as thinking poison should count for the opposing player) because victory points can and often are a deciding factor in tournaments.

Ok, let's assume we sum up the surviving SS at the end of the Slaughter, and substract lost SS from that?(including self-sacrificed models, but only if there's no replacement coming out for the sacrifice - killing Dogs or sacrificing Stitched would count, but not making Duet out of Coryphée or bringking Killjoy out of some poor chap)

Summoners, in general, can turn a loss of a model into a gain of identical model. The replacement may cost more or less in SS, but it costs them cards and AP, so it isn't a simple gain in SS terms. They gain by a large margin only if they kill the opponent and then use the Body Counter to summon... but their minions are not as survivable as the opponent's. If you kill the Dogs and summon Punks, you gain 3SS for the victory purposes out of the equation... but if you then loose thePunk, you're now 7 points in the back and need to resummon it just to minimize the disadvantage.

Im not even talking about sacrificing my own models, im talking about playing a straight up game where I have no idea which of my three models will end up giving my opponent three victory points. Only neverborn have that.

Isn't it actually a hard work to get these VP if there are actual models Neverborn player has to kill?

If you criticize Kidnap for being auto-VP when you sacrifice or kill own minions, then the answer is - yup, you need to stop doing it that much. That's what Kidnap is for. There are other Schemes like that.

If you complain the opponent HAS to kill your minions to get these VP, then you really have no standing here. Killing minions isn't easy. Any Scheme that requires players to work towards its realization allows for the Scheme to remain unannounced. Perhaps there should be option to announce it for full 2 VP, but then it would stop serving its primary purpose of opponent not being able to kill or sacrifice as many own models as he would like.

a year ago people argued it was theoryfaux. now these problems have shown themselves in tournaments. the concerns voiced a year ago turn out to be justified. so i feel we should discuss that. I felt no need to thread necro to do that.

I'd say it's still Theoryfaux, at least in part. What we've seen in tournaments are matches where Lilitu players were very lucky with Lure and matches where Lure got all wrong and they lost their Lilitu. That's definition of balanced, even if frustrating.

Alp bomb and Stitched denying VPs is more of a mechanic problem. The later needs to be fixed by reworking Slaughter further (and perhaps other Strategies/Schemes relying on killing the opponent).

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Still a :-fate *X, but if it is just a single event, you can first flip the card, then drop a Soulstone on the top of it. Even with a low WP masters hover around 5, so beating 12 isn't all that difficult with the Soulstone. Then you apply some AoE and Alps drop like flies. High Wp models need 4+ or so to beat the duel, so even negative flips don't make it impossible. Really high Wp models beat it on any card but 1s.

Isn't it actually a hard work to get these VP if there are actual models Neverborn player has to kill?

Out of interest, how many high WP (in your opinion that means eight) and how many very high WP (10) models there are in the game? Three out of the 150 models? You think that's a good yard stick?`

Getting 12 with :-fate *X is extremely hard for anyone without Use Soulstone. And then you rely on that Use Soulstone model to a) have an activation left, B) manage to activate and, most importantly, c) have some big AoE to take care of all of the Alps.

A high WP model with WP 7 (those are actually sorta common) has approx a 65% chance of succeeding in the duel with a single :-fate. The chance drops to 45% with another :-fate (the actual computation is sorta complicated because you have the hand and these can't be cheated but those are rough estimates). Those sorts of odds are devastating - taking risks like that loses you the game. But here you have no choice.

The :-fate is completely ridiculous.

If you criticize Kidnap for being auto-VP when you sacrifice or kill own minions, then the answer is - yup, you need to stop doing it that much. That's what Kidnap is for. There are other Schemes like that.

If you complain the opponent HAS to kill your minions to get these VP, then you really have no standing here. Killing minions isn't easy. Any Scheme that requires players to work towards its realization allows for the Scheme to remain unannounced. Perhaps there should be option to announce it for full 2 VP, but then it would stop serving its primary purpose of opponent not being able to kill or sacrifice as many own models as he would like.

Kidnap is one of the top 4 schemes hands down and only one faction has access to it. It's mere existence forces you to react to it even before you see your opponent's list, which is more than any other scheme in the game does. I can't believe that people are honestly defending Kidnap as being balanced and fine. It is not.

It's seriously funny that one faction has arguably the best masters and minions and unarguably the biggest caches and the best schemes, and yet people keep insisting that they are fine just because status quo is perfect and change is scary (not meaning you Q, you at least justify and defend your opinions, even if I don't agree with them all the time, which is a nice change of pace).

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Out of interest, how many high WP (in your opinion that means eight) and how many very high WP (10) models there are in the game? Three out of the 150 models? You think that's a good yard stick?`

Wp5~7 across the board is not unheard of in a crew. Rezzers can do it, Guild is generally higher than that.

Getting 12 with :-fate *X is extremely hard for anyone without Use Soulstone. And then you rely on that Use Soulstone model to a) have an activation left, B) manage to activate and, most importantly, c) have some big AoE to take care of all of the Alps.

Sure not every model can do it. The point is you would need just 1 model which can do it to shield your crew or make the Alp player calculate the odds.

A high WP model with WP 7 (those are actually sorta common) has approx a 65% chance of succeeding in the duel with a single :-fate. The chance drops to 45% with another :-fate (the actual computation is sorta complicated because you have the hand and these can't be cheated but those are rough estimates). Those sorts of odds are devastating - taking risks like that loses you the game. But here you have no choice.

3 Alps is 9 points. For 9 points you can get some of the top models in this game. I'd say if they get 45% chance to pass the duel, then it is only a very slight skew towards the Alps for the same price in SS.

Perhaps the SS equivalency is not the best argument here, but it does keep us from exaggerating, doesn't it?

The change I propose leaves Alps very strong. The assumption is they are mostly balanced as is. All it does is give the opponent a realistic chance of resisting them. Right now with multiple resists it simply isn't there.

Kidnap is one of the top 4 schemes hands down and only one faction has access to it. It's mere existence forces you to react to it even before you see your opponent's list, which is more than any other scheme in the game does. I can't believe that people are honestly defending Kidnap as being balanced and fine. It is not.

The assumption is that it was created in such ways *precisely* because there was a need to affect balance in that way. Perhaps the need is gone now, I'd like to see some solid argument for that, not just the feeling based on the fact other factions don't get it.

Isn't Sabotage the same thing really? If you want to prevent it you need to pick up fast models and guard multiple terrain pieces, so you either change your list without even knowing the Arcanist crew, or you simply ignore it and let them have these 2VP.

It's seriously funny that one faction has arguably the best masters and minions and unarguably the biggest caches and the best schemes, and yet people keep insisting that they are fine just because status quo is perfect and change is scary (not meaning you Q, you at least justify and defend your opinions, even if I don't agree with them all the time, which is a nice change of pace).

This really connects to the other thread about Malifaux balance right now, but I've been around long enough to see *exactly* same things being said about Army of the Dead, Rezzers in general, Guild in general and Guild masters. "Arguably" is the go word for perceptions and feelings. I remain highly sceptic.

I feel Neverborn are the easiest to play and wrap your head around. You need to master more difficult aspects of Malifaux tactics to oppose them with other factions. That kind of skews the perception - especially now that the Book 2 minions make range no longer the big issue for the faction. That doesn't necessarily makes them the best faction (in terms of power).

Edited by Q'iq'el
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That is simply untrue. You need to cast Lure every time. Sure, that's really easy to do (4+ of any suit), but it also is a Rst:Wp spell. CC12 is easy to achieve, but also easy to beat. If Lilitu wants to cast Lure successfully, it needs to push it somewhere into TN of 15+, which still isn't hard, but does require cheating 1/2 of the time. At top range, against typical models, you need to cast Lure 3 times to start hitting. 5~6 times for a kill, if the damage flips go well, right? That's 3 cheats, per average, per a single casting sequence... I can't see it being spammed beyond reason, even with two Lilitus around.

Every time the opponent resists the spell, the chain is interrupted and an AP wasted.

Sure, people argue there's up to 6 AP available for Lure in a dual Lilitu+Nekima crew, but that's also very situational and quite rare... and not a problem with this ability alone either. And if you spend 3 or 4 AP to kill a model, is it really different to other attacks? Almost anything can kill an average model in 3 regular Strikes.

Perhaps better solution is to make Nekima give that extra :masks to one model only, rather than :pulse it around herself? Would also hurt the Growth lists somewhat.

I agree and disagree. I agree because I hate Growth lists and I really wish they would have been dealt with a long time ago.

I disagree because this is a big reason you take Nekima and she is already very hard to fit in competitive list. Tweaking this hurts her usability even further.

Look this combo is completely 100% fair. It takes a 7ss model and a 13ss model to pull this off... 20ss of model to do this. The cost easily justifies what you get for it. It's been talked to death in the Neverborn section and it always comes down to that, 20ss.

Never mind how much of your control hand your blowing to assure you get the Lure's and then whatever your going to use to try and kill the actual model. Qi'q'el is completely on the money with this, there are a lot of hidden costs to it. But the funny thing about it, most people don't see them because they haven't played the models. When you put them to the table and try to make this work, it becomes very obvious how much of a tole this can take on your hand and how easily it can backfire.

@Kidnap:

Yeah this is another point that has been talked to death. The best suggestion I've ever heard or found myself is you have the player reveal what the 2 models are. From there it's your decission. But I have no sympathy for a list that brings models your going to kill yourself. Be it killing mercs for blood, or dogs for corpses... your taking that risk and it's your choice.

If the models were revealed, at least you would have a better chance to deal with it.

Alp bomb and Stitched denying VPs is more of a mechanic problem. The later needs to be fixed by reworking Slaughter further (and perhaps other Strategies/Schemes relying on killing the opponent).

Absolutely agreed on the Strategies/Schemes that rely on killing opponents. There have been issues with them for a while and they need some reworking, especially now that the competitive rounds are starting up. But as to how to do this, I don't have a good answer. It nearly needs to be taken at a model by model level looking how to deal with each one. Once you have those answers, you try to see how the Scheme could be adjusted to handle them all. It may require some models to have a V2 or v3 card that updates them to interact with the scheme sadly. Or it could be solved with a simple ruling for intent and listing the race cases one by one and how its supposed to work with them. Not the best solution, but it gets the job done cleanly.

As for Alps, they are in very much the same spot as the Dreamer. If you tweak anything, even in the slightest, the reprecusions can break the model or make it worthless. They are a little nasty for 3ss, but that is ONLY with the Dreamer. With any other master they are ok at best. If I was to name something on them to change, I don't think I can name anything that won't cause them to swing heavily one way or the other. The simple fact is, it's the Dreamer that makes them lethal. He gives them that extra oomph and there is probably not a good way to deal with that without making them near useless for any other Master. With maybe the one exception of not having Feed on Dreams stack... but even that is iffy.

I

t's seriously funny that one faction has arguably the best masters and minions and unarguably the biggest caches and the best schemes, and yet people keep insisting that they are fine just because status quo is perfect and change is scary (not meaning you Q, you at least justify and defend your opinions, even if I don't agree with them all the time, which is a nice change of pace).

See, I've seen this said about every faction at one point in time. Maybe not the exact same words, but the same jist of "They are to powerful". The Neverborn really aren't, and I'm not saying this because I play them. I play every faction right now and I can take down a Neverborn player just as well as a Guild, Resser, etc. It's about perception and learning how to handle the crews. The Neverborn can be very complex or very straightforward.

But playing against them is almost always a hard game because they do something wonderful... they make you think. You can't just draw your weapons and go at them, you have to be careful and cautious and that is what the faction is about. But at the same time, they have to do the same thing in reverse. Many of their models require a lot of care when using or they become useless or die extremely easily. I've always said Nightmares are Glass cannons and with the exception of Teddy, they really are. What makes the Dreamer hard to play is learning how to work your bury and unbury mechanics in timing with your opponent to get their weak points. The number of times I've seen a Dreamer crew disintigrate because the player dropped at the wrong time is rather high.

But let me put it this way, I remember when Nico was the hot $$$$$$$$ around. I remember trying to deal with a virtually never ending army of Punk Zombies and hating every minute of it. I remember Lady J vs Lilith being the culimation of many games and watching Lilith's head fly off her shoulders do to reposte. I remember ( and still see) Leveticus walk down the field clearing out my models like they were nothing. It's all about learning your crew and learning your opponents. This change as the game progresses and the key word in all of this is "perception".

Edited by karn987
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Maybe instead of trying to weaken Neverborn, Wyrd should strengthen other factions?

mayeb a little bit of both

instead of drasticly changing 1 of them, change a bit of all of them, so the changes arn't that big, but have the same impact as if you changed 1 faction completely, changing 1 faction this big would have a negative effect on al the neverborn players, but change evrything a bit, and no big problems will occur

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See, I've seen this said about every faction at one point in time. Maybe not the exact same words, but the same jist of "They are to powerful". The Neverborn really aren't, and I'm not saying this because I play them. I play every faction right now and I can take down a Neverborn player just as well as a Guild, Resser, etc. It's about perception and learning how to handle the crews. The Neverborn can be very complex or very straightforward.

But playing against them is almost always a hard game because they do something wonderful... they make you think. You can't just draw your weapons and go at them, you have to be careful and cautious and that is what the faction is about. But at the same time, they have to do the same thing in reverse. Many of their models require a lot of care when using or they become useless or die extremely easily. I've always said Nightmares are Glass cannons and with the exception of Teddy, they really are. What makes the Dreamer hard to play is learning how to work your bury and unbury mechanics in timing with your opponent to get their weak points. The number of times I've seen a Dreamer crew disintigrate because the player dropped at the wrong time is rather high.

But let me put it this way, I remember when Nico was the hot $$$$$$$$ around. I remember trying to deal with a virtually never ending army of Punk Zombies and hating every minute of it. I remember Lady J vs Lilith being the culimation of many games and watching Lilith's head fly off her shoulders do to reposte. I remember ( and still see) Leveticus walk down the field clearing out my models like they were nothing. It's all about learning your crew and learning your opponents. This change as the game progresses and the key word in all of this is "perception".

same what I'm saying all this time, playing against lists that require you to think is part of the game, or with them, Marcus, probably one of the weakest masters, but if you know how to use him, probably one of the annoying masters in the game,

hit nekima with a (0) tiger strike, make her a beast, and use alfa and ss it high so she cannot resist it.

that's with every master/crew, if you know them, they are better then they look on paper, if you don't know them, you can lose so easy.

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Hell I will throw my 2 Cents in on the op.

Drain soul is fine it murders your own models and is only useful in a situation you really need soul stones or if you are trying to get your model count down for eye for an eye. If someone is doing it against you with slaughter then they are down models and that should really hurt them in the long run.

Stitched together does not die I posted my thoughts in the original ruling that I didn't like it and I have made my peace that it happens.

The way you fix lilitu is you just make it so lure can't be cast at a model you are in melee with. It doesn't effect bells it doesn't really effect non Pandora lists. Lelu is fine in my mind he is slow not that hard to kill and hits like a truck I like him I would rather have a Young most days.

Wicked dolls/ vodoo dolls take a master 2 ap think of what masters can do with 2 AP and if you play on a table that you can see in a straight line across add more terrain.

Corpelious is fine he really is.

Kinap is fine people everyone has a stupid easy faction Scheme. Sabotage, Army of the Dead, Raid. If you are worried about tournament play they can only take it once. If it is what someone picks in every friendly game then they are a sad sad soul.

Which brings me to alps. I am a dreamer player(new) i have "alp bombed" twice now and I just don't think it is a fun game to play so I personally don't do it teddy bomb so much more fun.

Everyone Has been right that if you change one slight wording they go from OMFG to terrible. I am of the opinion they really are a 4 point model personal opinion with what they can do. That also limits how many you can take which limits effectiveness. The ability I would just completely remove is Tarnkappe. I think they would be fine then I don't think they are a huge problem now but they are annoying.

I really think Neverborn are a little bit above average as a whole just the best players are playing them and everyone heard they are the op army so that's what they picked up first. The only one master that tips the scale at all is Pandora and that's because she abuses the moral rules which in this game are brutal. I honestly think guild is the worst faction out there and I see them being OP threads all over the place. Once people figure out how badly Arcanist ruin Neverborn really raspy just murders face, then Ressers will be OP because of how much Nicadiem can summon.

Edited by Mentat_Canis
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We have a different thread going about neverborn and their power level (Technically an exorcist thread). In that thread I made a few suggestions. I am curious if the community would have any problem with these ideas?

1. alps - rare 3

2. Lelitu - Double Take - add a line at the end that states "this second casting of lure cannot trigger double take."

3. Stitched Together - Does not Die - Add a line at the end that states "This model counts as being killed by your opponent for the purpose of victory points, strategies, and schemes"

4. Kidnap - Add a line "This scheme must be announced"

5. (1) Drain Power - add a line "This model counts as being killed by your opponent for the purpose of victory points, strategies, and schemes."

Does anyone have a reason this changes should not be discussed and hopefully considered by Wyrd. If you think I took something too far to the left, or it imbalances the game in some way I would really like to hear your opinion on it. If your only reason we should not make the changes is the game is what it is, feel free to post that as well

If anyone at wyrd wants to come on and post their thought process behind the above rules working as they are, and why they should keep working like that, I'm not opposed to listening to that either. Infact I would welcome it.

1. Alps arent a problem in and of themselves, theyre a problem because of the way they stack. They hand out AE slow, and they have no real positional issues due to the Dreamer to offset their small range. The real way to solve the Alp Bomb is to stop Feed on Dreams stacking. Simple.

2. I dont really see Lillitu's double take as being a problem; I think the major problem is that she does too much for a 7 point model. Double Take AND Casting Expert AND a solid melee statline AND float AND 12 wp to attack her AND all of her other triggers and summoning etc...too much. I think she needs to go up to 8 points, and be toned down a little, or be toned down a lot. She puts support models from every faction to shame.

3. The problem with Stitched Together is not Does Not Die (although the many interactions in this game that allow you to bypass strat/scheme requirements - including this one, drain souls, saccing your own models, etc - do need to be removed). The problem with it is that it does too much for a 5 point mode. Its damage potential with GyL is huge AND always cheatable - and the fact that the opponent can win is bare compensation when the choice to activate it is yours meaning you will always do it in an advantageous position (and at worst...kill yourself and reactivate). Gambler is also ridiculous; hand control/card draw abilities seem to be very undercosted in general by Wyrd, and this one is no exception. I think GyL needs its damage toned down to realistic 5-point model levels, and I think Gambler needs to be a real gamble not "I discard an Ace to activate this". Maybe have a minimum card number limit on it, something. All in all, like Lillitu, Stitched is simply far too cheap for what it does.

4. Yep, that's all Kidnap needs. Must be announced.

5. I agree.

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