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My dreamer's alpha strike


mindwarpusa

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Right I can see where we differ. As I read the rules the steps go:

Declare a strike (atthis point it has no target)

Check who I can declare as the target of this strike.

Pick one of these models as the target

Check other things like range.

The strike will fail if: There are no models that can be declared a target or if you have declared a target but it's out of range.

You're saying:

Declare a strike and choose a target

Find out if you could have declared that model as the target

Check range

The strike fails if the target couldn't have been targetted or was out of range.

I can't see any part of the rules that back up your version of things. They always refer to checking if a model can be targetted before declaring it as a target but after the strike starts (this 2nd part we both agree on)

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I can't see any part of the rules that back up your version of things. They always refer to checking if a model can be targetted before declaring it as a target but after the strike starts (this 2nd part we both agree on)

It is the Strike Sequence on the page 42.

The RAW part of the wording is the first sentence on the page:

"The models making a ranged or melee Strike use the Strike attack sequence."

Then you have the sequence on the black background.

Then you have the detailed description of the sequence starting with "Declare Target and Check range".

Magic Duels are a bit different, but follow the same pattern in general. The difference between the influence of checking range on the Ranged Strike and Melee Strike is due to the specific rules for Melee Strikes on previous pages (allowing you to check if you are engaged or engaging other models in melee at any time).

Essentially speaking the point I'm basing my analysis on is that you follow this procedure when you "make" the strike. The strike is already hapening and paid for.

This is particularly obvious when you check the last sentence of "Declare Target then Check Range" section on the page 42. They tell you the Strike fails if you couldn't Declare it or if it was out of range.

As I said, to fail, you must first make it (start the sequence). If that phase of the Strike happened before you started it, you'd be told at that point that you cannot make the strike, but it wouldn't be a fail yet.

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the page 42. They tell you the Strike fails if you couldn't Declare it or if it was out of range.

Where does it say that? From what I can see it says it fails if there are no targets within LoS (which as I said earlier implies that if your intended target is not in LoS then you can pick another) or if it is out of range.

There is nothing about if you couldn't declare it a target.

Step 1 tells you how to declare a target (anything in LoS, therefre you can't chose something out of LoS, this rule is applied when you declare a target. Not afterwards) after which you check range.

You keep seem to be implying something that is not said anywhere.

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Where does it say that? From what I can see it says it fails if there are no targets within LoS (which as I said earlier implies that if your intended target is not in LoS then you can pick another) or if it is out of range.

There is nothing about if you couldn't declare it a target.

In two places on page 42:

"A model must be within the atacker's LoS to be declared the target of a Strike. If there are no targets within the attacker's LoS the Strike fails."

Not is prevented or doesn't happen. It fails.

Then you ensure if the target is in Range and if it isn't, the strike fails.

More importantly, the section which describes it is called "Declare Target, then Check Range". Which means the procedure for choosing Target, as far as I understand, adheres to the rules from page 14. This is the point in Strike attack sequence, where these rules apply.

Step 1 tells you how to declare a target (anything in LoS, therefre you can't chose something out of LoS, this rule is applied when you declare a target. Not afterwards) after which you check range.

You keep seem to be implying something that is not said anywhere.

No no. I completely agree with you about this. The point you are missing is the very first sentence on the page, above the sequence on the black background.

The sentence says you follow the sequence *when* you make the Strike, not *before* you make the strike.

What I'm trying to point you at is that you don't start that entire sequence until you pay AP for that. It is a "Strike sequence". You follow it when you declare you make a Strike and you pay AP for the strike before you make it.

Edited by Q'iq'el
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I know that and have agreed with you on several occaisions. My point is that, for instance, you wanted to shoot at something that was some way into creepy fog. So you declare a strike. You measure and discover that it was over 3" into the fog so you can't target it but there are other enemy models who are definitely in LoS so you can target them instead.

This is all part of the same strike as so far a target has not yet been declared.

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Ahh, in multi-target situation. I haven't considered this. Only a single-target situation (since we've been talking about the Dreamer).

So yes, it seems that you can begin a Strike, check if you see the Dreamer, have it fail due to Shadowy Form (which means you see the Nightmare), then try to Declare Target on Nightmare, see it is in LoS (which must be in LoS otherwise Shadowy Form wouldn't work) and then proceed to checking range... and if the range is OK, then you are free to proceed with Strike Duel against the Nightmare.

Only Nightmare being out of range can create a situation where you cannot target Dreamer and cannot strike the Nightmare either (which is the situation I had stuck in my head, somehow).

If that is what you tried to point out, you convinced me.

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Yup that's the one. Always the way isn't it? Turns out you were both right but misunderstanding the point the other person is trying to make.

;)

Isn't easy on the net... There are always stages to it:

1. simple misunderstanding.

2. escalation - both sides post the rules and what they think they mean.

3. comprehension - people start to see other people understand the rules the same, with small differences.

4. we discover we both say the same or one side admits his mistake.

It really cannot occur without stage 2. Otherwise it is just endless repetition of 1.

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