My dreamer's alpha strike

[Fetid Strumpet]

Q' I did not use the examples of super Resser minions because if they were in the game they would "balance the Dreamer". I used them as an example, perhaps a bit hyperbolic, to show that of course those minions shouldn't be in the game, it would be ridiculous if they were, they would be way too powerful and I hope that anyone reading the post would see that.

The point was that if those kind of minions shouldn't be allowed in game because they are too powerful, why should the Dreamer have them and be called "just fine".

And as you might have noticed I don't necessarily think it is the "DREAMER" himself that is OP. I think that his dual master status and ability to manipulate his crew gives him too much of an edge in manipulating the Strats and Schemes his opponent can achieve. I think that it is frankly ridiculous that one of the most maneuverable, lethal, and defensive Masters in the game also gets to start with a 5 SS Cache. However, considering just the Dreamer and Chompy in isolation they are VERY strong but theoretically on par with Colette, Kirai, Pandora, etc...

What I think truly pushes the Dreamer over the line into "you only win if the Dreamer makes a mistake" territory is his Daydreams and how he interacts with them. I think that as they are currently worded, and the fact that you can have up to three of them is, well I just don't have the words for it.

I 100% am ok with the Dreamer having some help manipulating Chompy being in or out, I just don't think that the movement shenanigans that they allow him to pull are at all beneficial for the game.

[Q'iq'el]

Also, I fail to see how a Stiched is easier to bypass than Daydreams when your argument for that relied on incorrect rules information AFAIK.

Depends on whether you keep Fog up or not. If the Fog is up then some of the models normally incapable of bypassing Shadowy Form (ranged strikers and casters) would be able to manipulate their position into attacking the Dreamer the way melee models can.

You are right my information was wrong, but not in the way you suspect. I was under impression that killing Stitched shuts down the Fog. I'm not sure how such an idea appeared in my head at that moment, but it was a clear mistake.

I disagree with the opinion about fragility of MZs or their very finite character. I kind of hoped I explained it thoroughly enough (the reason for the length of my original post) that these limitations do not matter much in case of MZ. I play with 3~4 most of the time, 6 at the top. I find the opponent needs to bring disproportionate amount of action points to overcome that, whether they target MZs or try to force Nicodem to sacrifice them.

I also have a problem with the notion opponent won't drop Corpse Counters. Some opponents won't, other crews are partially living/undead. There are plenty of masters with entirely living crews out there. Either way, with book 3 it isn't hard getting to 3~4 MZs even without any influx of opponent Counters.

The need to overwhelm Nicodem and his MZs means, in turn, my opponents prefer to go after his crew. If they kill models he needs to score, at least according to them, he will waste action points on reanimations and that both delays his objective taking and lowers his damage output. That is when he is free to put the Bolster Undead aura up though. This may be the meta-game I'm dealing with, but indeed in this conditions Bolster Undead is almost always up.

You don't need disproportionate amount of AP to kill the Dreamer. You merely need a model capable of picking the angle of attack well (Coryphée Duet, Young Nephilim, Silurid, Lilith, Victorias, Shikome, Misaki and Ronin perhaps, SA train maybe? Even Night Terrors and Terror Tots if you can pull off triple-mask sprint, with Nekima's help... don't know about other crews.)

This in turn means, as far as I understand it, it makes perfect sense to try to bypass Shadowy Form and get the dreamer, you just need right models to do that (and they are not few and far between), it doesn't cost you match, the models are unlikely to be targeted early by his alpha strike (as they are not the toughest guys in your crew and you can afford some redundancy). Moreover if you take the Dreamer out, the entire Alpha strike chain's suffers a lot, doesn't it?

It makes little sense to brute force your way through Nicodem's Zombies, because you're better off spending the activations on getting VPs. He's not popping all over the table and you have a chance to outplay him without committing so many resources to killing him.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ummm Q', ... yes if you can take out the Dreamer the crew suffers maneuverability problems. However if you are trying to stop the "I drop my crew off in melee range on first turn AND kill something with Chompy AND appear back in my deployment zone on my first activation of the turn" Can you please explain to me how you stop that if you don't win initiative, or if how you stop it with your one and only activation before it happens to you?

Plus you are ignoring the fact that the Dreamer ignores all pulses, auras, and blasts, AND is a spirit with use SS. Even a 2 Def can be a pain to get past if the target is both a spirit and has Use SS. "Oh, you got past my defense and are doing 4 dmg. Oh No's! I now have to halve the dmg to 2, I'm doomed! Oh wait, I spend a SS and prevent... *flip* ... one of that dmg. You do 1 dmg. Are you out of activations now? You are? *CHOMP*

So you can't even assume if you are lucky enough to get past his Shadowy Form that the Dreamer is toast. The dreamer can easily survive a full assault by a Shikome, which I think we can all agree is one of the nastiest combat monsters the ressers have. Sure it will require some SS to do, ahhh but the Dreamer has a massive cache that he always comes into the game with.

So it seems your argument is that the Dreamer's defense isn't all that tough, as long as you have combat monster(s) that can get into combat with the Dreamer on any approach vector, has a huge movement to chase the Dreamer's potential movement Shenanigans, AND you have managed to do it exact thing 2 or 3 times in advance to drain the SS pool. You're right, how could I have been so blind, the Dreamer is totally easy to kill.

[011121]

You can't have everything. Note that Nicodem's Mindless Zombie shield is more powerful than Daydream shield. It simply does much more both for him and to the opponent' date=' and can be restored at almost no cost, if opponent tries to destroy the shield, rather than kill Nicodem.[/quote']

Nicodem isn't immune to blasts, pulses, and auras, right? See one issue with the dreamer is not only can you not target him directly you also can't target him indirectly. It's fine to have a good stalwart defense, it's less okay to have a universal defense.

[Q'iq'el]

Well, this is how all these arguments go. At certain point you have to take a step back, look at a course of entire game and realize that yes you need to employ redundancy, make sure you can drain resources or overcome the master and attempt it until you succeed. How else you beat other masters?

There clearly are things Dreamer has going for him. One is that there's a lot of redundancy in his crew. One is that he is very mobile.

There are things going against him. What can he do if there's no valuable target to Alp Bomb safely? What if there are multiple models of low value threatening the Dreams and the Dreamer when he returns to that form? As I said, fast cheap models that can engage him in melee are actually better way to threaten him that big monsters - you'll find plenty of them. Sure, he will cheat and soulstone if he must, but that won't last him for entire game.

I can only speak about my own crews, as masters are too different.

Lilith: I'd set two "tough" groups with Lilith in one and Nekima or Nekima with Lilitu. Close enough for one group to be able to attack another. The weak point would be that I'd have to go first to activate Nephilim Heart. Good part is Lilith can easily have more SS than the Dreamer and can push to get that activation. Rest of the Nephilim would be either Young or Tots.

That presents the Dreamer player with a dilemma - if he bombs Lilith the risk is double. One, Lilith is well capable of suriving the Bomb and then she can Whirling Death everyone... and do a healing flip or extra strike for good measure. If positioning is right, Lilitu can activate instead and lure and kill enough Alps to make the bomb less damaging. If he bombs Nekima/Lilitu instead, they too stand a good chance of surviving the Bomb, and Lilith can move in and Whirl of Death as well.

If he ignores the Nephilim, they can easily catch the Dreamer when its vulnerable (and bypass Shadowy Form). If he goes after Nephilim, that's an entire turn spend on killing 3 or 6SS model and it's not like bigger models cannot do the same to him. A lowly Terror Tot can do 6Dg on a hit, which is more than enough to kill him despite his Spirit mitigation.

Nicodem: I'd go with completely different approach. I'd set up a big blob of models to protect Nicodem from being engaged in Melee. If Dreamer bombed that blob, I'd bounce Decays of my own models both to kill the Alps (magic damage, so Spirit doesn't help) and heal the Nicodem and his minions in the process.

Colette: Lone models. Anything the Alp bombs deploys around can be teleported away before it activates. This would require starting with a Dove on the table, as it is the only safe way to whisk Showgirls away. Colette would have to sacrifice a Performer or a Mannequin to get away, but on the plus side she'd have it rather easy to avoid getting slow from Smother, when she activates. Either way, Colette would have one or two more AP to snipe the models in the Dreamer's retinue, if she only maintains LoS to it.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Math Mathonwy]

Depends on whether you keep Fog up or not. If the Fog is up then some of the models normally incapable of bypassing Shadowy Form (ranged strikers and casters) would be able to manipulate their position into attacking the Dreamer the way melee models can.

How? You can always see the Stitched through his own fog (as I already pointed out but you decided to ignore). Unless I'm mistaken, but I don't think I am.

You are right my information was wrong, but not in the way you suspect. I was under impression that killing Stitched shuts down the Fog. I'm not sure how such an idea appeared in my head at that moment, but it was a clear mistake.

You are apparently wrong in multiple ways, here. I suggest reading up on the Stitched.

You don't need disproportionate amount of AP to kill the Dreamer. You merely need a model capable of picking the angle of attack well (Coryphée Duet, Young Nephilim, Silurid, Lilith, Victorias, Shikome, Misaki and Ronin perhaps, SA train maybe? Even Night Terrors and Terror Tots if you can pull off triple-mask sprint, with Nekima's help... don't know about other crews.)

Very, very few of those are capable of seriously threatening the Dreamer. It's funny that you remember the SS when talking about Nico but not when it comes to the Dreamer who has a bigger cache and a better way to use them for defense.

[Q'iq'el]

How? You can always see the Stitched through his own fog (as I already pointed out but you decided to ignore). Unless I'm mistaken, but I don't think I am.

How? Creepy Fog says: "including this model".

You are apparently wrong in multiple ways, here. I suggest reading up on the Stitched.

Not the problem with reading comprehension, but with Does not die being exceptional. Kill=Auras go away, so I typed in the sentence before I realized I'm jumping on assumption here.

Very, very few of those are capable of seriously threatening the Dreamer. It's funny that you remember the SS when talking about Nico but not when it comes to the Dreamer who has a bigger cache and a better way to use them for defense.

I don't. Nicodem's cache may be smaller, but it is easier for him to start with big pool (he doesn't have to fill up his list, he may take a cheaper minion or two and reanimate them into something bigger later). He also has somewhat more freedom in using them - he has other means to defend himself and can choose when to go with SS and when to sacrifice a MZ or take the damage which he will heal later easily (for example taking 4~6 damage from the bomb is almost entirely reversible for him, and he'll likely get all the Alps in the process).

The Dreamer cannot take the damage at all. He'll have to SS every attack of 3~6 that lands on him, especially if it is magic.

[Math Mathonwy]

How? Creepy Fog says: "including this model".

I'm at a disadvantage since I don't have my book handy, but I thought that it was a 3" obscuring aura and that would mean that the Stitched is withing 3" of the obscuring stuff so visible (similar to Rasputina's obscuring aura). Am I mistaken? (I tried to ask this once before, you know.)

[Smokey616]

So am I right in assuming that nobody here has beaten the dreamer?.... ....: ..... ..... Didn't think so.

How did you do it??

To anybody!

[011121]

I've won one game against the dreamer using Zoraida and Collodi and a force of marionettes and wicked dolls. Partially this was due to the dreamer player (my son) not really knowing what Collodi could do with his dolls (a teddy popped out and was torn to shreds by the dolls before it could act). I should also point out my son hasn't yet gotten a good grasp on the more sinister things to do with the dreamer and we own no alps. Also he was very intimidated of Zoraida, more than he probably should have been and mostly refused to come within LOS of her.

Short answer- I won not because the dreamer was weak but because the player wasn't using him as well as he could have.

In a lot of ways I think Collodi is what the dreamer was meant to be- a scary fast ambush-er that's incredibly vulnerable after he pounces if not careful. I think that's the play style they intended for the dreamer but they just gave him too much.

[Smokey616]

Ok anyone else?

[Math Mathonwy]

I've won due to serious mistakes on the part of the Dreamer player and me bringing my A-game. Have never won when Dreamer player has been on top of his game and Dreamer is the only Master I've lost to in a year.

[Smokey616]

So absolutely nobody has beat him with a combination of

Luck, opportunism, ignorance, strategy? Nobody?

[011121]

nobody? I could have sworn Math and I had just posted something to that effect...

[Smokey616]

But you said you'd won because of serious mistakes on behalf of the dreamer. I'm just curious as to how many of us have beaten him without him screwing up? I've done it a few times ( even if thats partly down to my friend having the good grace to not throw the alp Gouda at me ), mainly due to the fact that I'm $$$$$$$$ scared of him and will do everything in my puny power to score my objectives while evading him or at least trying to. A couple of times I have managed to snare him by offing his closest bus stop ( daydream ) in mid flow and unleashing Ortega hell, all while I was trying my hardest to just destroy evidence. I suppose that constitutes dreamer mistakes but not vast ones because statistically he should have succeeded but for absolutely cheeky luck as mentioned before. And, like I hinted at in previous posts, with v3 is it not possible that we could see a twisting in the er fateage, and a vast power shift? Lemme guess you all ready it already?

[mpangelu]

I'm at a disadvantage since I don't have my book handy, but I thought that it was a 3" obscuring aura and that would mean that the Stitched is withing 3" of the obscuring stuff so visible (similar to Rasputina's obscuring aura). Am I mistaken? (I tried to ask this once before, you know.)

4" Aura, ht5 obscuring I believe.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm at a disadvantage since I don't have my book handy, but I thought that it was a 3" obscuring aura and that would mean that the Stitched is withing 3" of the obscuring stuff so visible (similar to Rasputina's obscuring aura). Am I mistaken? (I tried to ask this once before, you know.)

I don't remember the original Rasputina's aura right now, but V2 card seems identical for her, Nicodem and Stitched.

In my reading their abilities create an aura-object of the size of the Aura and Ht5. More than 3" of this "object" between the attacker and the Stitched, and it can't be seen it anymore.

I believe most players play it like that. The clarification about Hunter not extending LoS to 6" within Stitched/Nicodem/Rasputina Auras (as they are not terrain) wouldn't have sense, if it merely granted Soft Cover to everyone in range.

[Fetid Strumpet]

If the Dreamer doesn't make a mistake you most likely don't win. He has too many advantages that other crews often cannot offset. The Dreamer is not unbeatable, but the fact that he can be beaten doesn't mean he is balanced appropriately.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Q is correct about the aura. If I am understanding you correctly you are correct in that the obscuring Aura affects everyone. So the Stitched standing at the center can only see 3" from himself.

[Math Mathonwy]

4" Aura, ht5 obscuring I believe.

Ah, 4" instead of 3". Mea culpa.

[ravenborne]

yawn...

[Smokey616]

If the Dreamer doesn't make a mistake you most likely don't win. He has too many advantages that other crews often cannot offset. The Dreamer is not unbeatable, but the fact that he can be beaten doesn't mean he is balanced appropriately.

Ok granted he's not perfectly balanced and can be a daunting task to most crews. With approximately 50% win ratio my way, I don't think he's that broken. Damned powerful yes. But in order for him to be broken he would have do detract from my enjoyment in playing against him. He doesn't. I love the fear of running away from him and just scraping a win with points which to be fair is my main tactic against him. I don't see winning as the only way I can enjoy the game and until I'm been by him consistently and convincingly I still say he's unbroken and extremely Powerful. Perhaps ist just the sadomasochistic streak in me... I do support everton but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, think I obviously enjoy losing more than you

[Smokey616]

Oh and I still not 100% sure the initial alpha strike is totally legal. The way the card reads to me is the moment lcb is brought out activate him IMMEDIATELY, interrupting the current activation, which then resumes it's activation after lcb unless the dreamer is brought out as part of lcb interrupt. doesn't say immediately after the current models activation

[Calmdown]

Ok granted he's not perfectly balanced and can be a daunting task to most crews. With approximately 50% win ratio my way, I don't think he's that broken. Damned powerful yes. But in order for him to be broken he would have do detract from my enjoyment in playing against him. He doesn't. I love the fear of running away from him and just scraping a win with points which to be fair is my main tactic against him. I don't see winning as the only way I can enjoy the game and until I'm been by him consistently and convincingly I still say he's unbroken and extremely Powerful. Perhaps ist just the sadomasochistic streak in me... I do support everton but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, think I obviously enjoy losing more than you

With all due respect, and your opponent is free to attempt physical violence in response to this comment when we get round to having a game in Liverpool or something but.... if you have a 50% win ratio against the Dreamer, then you are hugely better than your opponent, and if you have a 50% win ratio with Guild in particular, I'd suspect that your opponent doesn't really understand how to play his crew yet and/or you are the best Malifaux player on the planet.

Oh and I still not 100% sure the initial alpha strike is totally legal. The way the card reads to me is the moment lcb is brought out activate him IMMEDIATELY, interrupting the current activation, which then resumes it's activation after lcb unless the dreamer is brought out as part of lcb interrupt. doesn't say immediately after the current models activation

That's the way it's been ruled. There's nothing less than 100% surety here.

[Smokey616]

Could ya post the link to the ruling please I don't believe you the wording on the card is clear. I said approximately 50% could be more could be less hence approximate. I certainly haven't lost more than 70 percent and ayes against the dreamer 10 maybe 11 times. And as I've pointed out I'm not as much of a sore loser as most of you ( ) because losing doesn't mean cack game or broken master. Most of the dreamer loses have come because perdita is nails and if you time your attack with her havin an awesome hand then she's gonna take everything you got, strip ya naked and call ya fatty. Oh and it's also dead funny to catch him with Von schills librarian and strip associated suits and watch him flounder trying to make a hand that works. And thank you! For my limited experience I must be the best player in the world cheers dude! Love you too x