Jump to content

The Dreaded FILTH list


nilus

Recommended Posts

Yeah I agree with you Alleycat. Lol however he can be placed like a austringer surrounded by guild models (note not clumped up on but using 3-4 models to cut off charge lanes and such too protect him and use him as a buff bot ie like abuela with matriarch's care/play nice that makes him a beast). Shame he can't be hired with ruthless/wicked models via man in black ability cause even though he is a outcast model I really only ever see him getting taken by guild because of the ability (imho they should have just made him a guild minion imho).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 128
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

When facing Neverborn I think most times that my answer would be my Lucius list:

Lucius 4ss

Governors Proxy

Warden x3

Austringer x2

Ryle

and just tell pandora to "come at me bro". Yes Pandora can move within 12" of my bot wall to strip away their Immunities... But in doing so she is already in threat range of my two "machine gun" Austringers and will burn through her stones attempting to dodge raptors.

Players should already know that Nekima HAS to activate before the Lilitus because she needs to give them the :masks for them to get off the chain lure. That is one beat stick model I am no longer afraid of. With so few activations on the board I can burn out a few of the Wardens with random walks or going full defense. After they are done I can advance everything else to spam "Issue Command". You can park the Governors Proxy with the Austringers in a building that is not easy to get into. They aren't even going to attempt to get within 18" of that building as you create a kill zone.

Play to the mission remember you can reflip at the cost of a stone (or free if Lucius). With the above list if I get recon i already outnumber the "filth list" wait out behind terrain last turn the wardens can "Mobile" their way across the board with the help of Lucius/Governors Proxy. Not only does the list have few activations (which shrink if he decides to companion) but it has to stay relatively close to eachother to be effective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You dont really need to do anything special to beat it. Just your standard lure-avoidance tricks, then blow Nekima up when you get a chance. This list is massively blown out of proportion in terms of effectiveness tbh.

I agree with this, Filth is not impossible to beat by any means. However, it is simply not fun to watch your models walk across the field and then slowly get cut up to death over the course of 5+ attacks per AP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with this' date=' Filth is not impossible to beat by any means. However, it is simply not fun to watch your models walk across the field and then slowly get cut up to death over the course of 5+ attacks per AP.[/quote']

The *no fun* argument is really the most annoying part of these discussions. These lists are there to be beaten. It is a miniature game. Miniature games are for people who have fun beating other people's list. Ergo it is fun to play against FILTH lists.

Don't you feel it is a low and rude thing to tell other players they are spoiling your fun only because you dislike playing their completely legal lists?

How would you react to a FILTH list player (I'm not one, for disclosure), who'd told you it's no fun to play against someone who's not competent enough to protect his models against Lure chain. Rather indignant, right?

Granted, I don't pay Filth list, but I do have Nekima and Lilitu. Last time I lent my Neverborn to play against it, I simply cast Disappearing Act on Nekima and then put her on a second floor of a building, 6" away. Nekima out of the picture for whole 3 turns, and she managed to re-apply Nephilim Hearth only at the end of turn 5, when it didn't matter anymore.

I don't care if it is the Gunslinger, Hans, Two Punk zombies or a turn of Tina' burning Soulstones to get her, 12 Wd at Df 4 with Ht4 screams *no survivability*. It's Nicodem without Mindless Zombies, no soulstones and who cannot hide. If Lure chain is such a huge problem, apply right resources to deal with it.

Edited by Q'iq'el
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The *no fun* argument is really the most annoying part of these discussions.

See, this arguement doesn't work. When someone expresses a subjective opinion, it is their opinion. There is no counterpoint to it.

If something is no fun to someone, it is no fun to that person.

You saying otherwise is like your Dad telling you that you're going to like something, whether you like it or not!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The *no fun* argument is really the most annoying part of these discussions. These lists are there to be beaten. It is a miniature game. Miniature games are for people who have fun beating other people's list. Ergo it is fun to play against FILTH lists.

This is ridiculously faulty logic. If Nekima's cost was 1SS and she was non-unique, would you have fun playing against a list of 35 Nekimas? It would be beatable (if the starts aligned just right), but probably not very fun. Except that, by your logic, it would be fun because beating people's lists is fun!

Some people's threshold of fun in beating a tough list is lower than some other people's. News at eleven. This really, really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is ridiculously faulty logic....

Some people's threshold of fun in beating a tough list is lower than some other people's. News at eleven. This really, really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

Basically it's hugely subjective, some people enjoy taking a non optimised list and working through the challenge of how to beat something tailored to the max. Others find the overly tailored list an affront as it typically relies upon some mechanic/gimic that makes the game not fun in the eyes of their opponent.

Bill/Nix has stated his standpoint on 'negative play experiences' which I largely agree with but there is sometimes some fun in trying to work out the 'key' to unlocking such a list.

The real issue comes when the filth list is hugely flexible and works versus most crews where the ones that can counter it are rather specialised and will end up struggling vs most 'normal' crews so it is a penalty if you take a list to counter it and your opponent selects something else but the filth itself is quite flexible so doesn't have to worry as much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is ridiculously faulty logic. If Nekima's cost was 1SS and she was non-unique, would you have fun playing against a list of 35 Nekimas? It would be beatable (if the starts aligned just right), but probably not very fun. Except that, by your logic, it would be fun because beating people's lists is fun!

That's a strawman, since we're talking about faulty logic. I thought I'm talking about netiquette though.

Some people's threshold of fun in beating a tough list is lower than some other people's. News at eleven. This really, really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

How about low tolerance for expression of subjective opinions which can be easily judged as ranging from annoying to offensive?

Or to put it in more netty terms, why is it ok to whine in an otherwise objective threat discussing a game mechanic (because of low no-fun threshold) but it isn't ok to whine about these posts? (because of low threshold of resistance to subjectivity ;) )

And who decides which low thresholds grant the right to public expression of subjective opinions?

Edited by Q'iq'el
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically it's hugely subjective, some people enjoy taking a non optimised list and working through the challenge of how to beat something tailored to the max. Others find the overly tailored list an affront as it typically relies upon some mechanic/gimic that makes the game not fun in the eyes of their opponent.

I can perfectly agree with that. But that's an issue for the player's local group to discuss and resolve, isn't it?

The real issue comes when the filth list is hugely flexible and works versus most crews where the ones that can counter it are rather specialised and will end up struggling vs most 'normal' crews so it is a penalty if you take a list to counter it and your opponent selects something else but the filth itself is quite flexible so doesn't have to worry as much.

Is it really that flexible though? You field 5 models or so, they are slow or average speed and have to stick together. Pandora gets some mobility out of the deal, but even she is getting lured back to the Nekima/Lilitu core, so that she can add her damage to the lure chains. That's a list which is much easier to work around than other builds people have recently brought up.

And never mind the core of the list is Ht4 and can be relatively easily killed, paralyzed, buried or otherwise dealt with, at which point the efficiency of Lure/DT combo is cut drastically (with possible 1 turn delay, if Nekima has already managed to do her Nephilim Heart :pulse that turn) - without her you need 2~3 of :masks in your hand to pull even 1 chain off, never mind going through killing the enemy model.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The *no fun* argument is really the most annoying part of these discussions. These lists are there to be beaten. It is a miniature game. Miniature games are for people who have fun beating other people's list. Ergo it is fun to play against FILTH lists.

You're asserting it can't possibly be unfun to play vs X combo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's the benefit of preserving this combo?

Uh? It is part of the game. It is a list presenting unique challenge, different to any other out there. This has always been Pandora thing - to force the players to think differently.

Doesn't the diversity make the game more fascinating?

I propose the problem is not in existence of FILTH list, but rather in perceived lack of equally challenging combos in other factions (which may be real or simply result of lack of focus on these factions).

Counter-proposition: It is just a fad, people will take a look at some new and old models they didn't consider before, which work great against this list, learn to kill Nekima on sight and the forums will move to the next worst thing ever.

Have you ever considered how under-performing Nekima herself is?

- Her weapon is good, but the triggers attached to it only so-so.

- Her movement is similar to Lilith, but she gets only 2 AP and she is so huge, 1 AP barely carries her to the other side of a small wall. Never mind trying to stick her into a complex engagement.

- She has no Diving Charge or Master of Malifaux, so she isn't really charging anyone through many blocking and obscuring terrains and effects. Got to admit Ht4 gives her solid LoS over taller walls, other models and smaller houses... but she still lacks the range to do it easily (and if you can't fit her base there, you can't charge).

*Perhaps this problem becomes more obvious once you start fighting in the narrow Terraclips streets and corridors.

- In the FILTH list all she does is Nephilim Heart, because she can't charge right away at the beginning of the turn, most of the time (if the opponent is smart). If you could lure something out for her, it'd be perhaps better, but then you'd activate Lilitu before she gets the second :masks.

All in all, it is a bit of the same design Alps have seen - i.e. it's all or nothing minion. Her raison d'être is to overcharge other models - she makes Luring and Growing really easy. Take that away and she's so bad she gets enclosed in foam for eternity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pardon me, but how exactly are Lelu and Lilitu slow? Especially since both of them give exactly $$$$$$$$$$-all about terrain?

(Psst I've invented a new vulgarity, the above word was C L O W N- All)

=D

Depends on how terrain-intensive your table is I guess. On a flat table there's no difference between a Punk Zombie and Lelu.

Add some severe terrain, and Lelu is twice as fast.

Add some houses, fences, trees, bushes... and Lelu starts struggling because he moves 4" and it is not enough to fly over all of these obstacles, so you start cutting him down to 3~2" per AP, just to fit in (or redirect him around some things, which easily take similar distance from the range he'd get in a straight path).

I know people assume they can take a double walk for 2AP and fly him 8", but why? I've always played you need to find a landing spot after your initial walk and only then walk for the second time (finding a suitable spot again).

His 6" charge with no Diving attack means he really needs to pick his food after Lilitu has finished playing with it.

In a Nephilim crew he struggles to stay in ranks (Lilitu needs to Lure him, sometimes). In Pandora crew he probably keeps up with the crowd, as she is slower, but then the entire crew can be outmaneuvered.

Lilitu isn't particularly slow (5" is average movement, isn't it?) and she's floating, which means she actually can move full 10" in one go without looking for a place to land in between. But only 2 General AP mean she isn't turbo-charging it when needed. Sure, she doesn't have to, with Lure and all, but that doesn't make her faster than average, does it? I suppose she's faster than Pandora's average, she is nowhere close to really fast models in this game.

Edited by Q'iq'el
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is not a case for diversity. These combos never are.

Quite the opposite.

Well, that'd be in agreement to my proposition that we need really many combos like that. Ideally every model should have something. :D

Edit: But I really had new and diverse challenges on my mind. One day it's Ortega Alpha Strike, another Coryphée, then comes the time to crack our heads against Lure, Double Take and Alps... the wheel is rolling and we're being kept busy by our hobby.

What would we obsess about without this? The forums would be dead! O.o

Edited by Q'iq'el
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're asserting it can't possibly be unfun to play vs X combo.

No, I'm asserting it isn't too polite to bring emotions into rational argument. Why do complete strangers need to know you have no fun against the crews they perhaps play? And why can't they tell in return that they have no fun reading such posts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Players will allways find the broken combos. Its in our nature to find the strongest combinations of our favored models. And I guarentee every one of you does it the same as I do. This is an example of an extremely successful synergy,nothing more. And it seems that we are all fated to run into it. so do like it says on every box and every book:

Cheat Fate or lose your Soul.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No' date=' I'm asserting it isn't too polite to bring emotions into rational argument. Why do complete strangers need to know you have no fun against the crews they perhaps play? And why can't they tell in return that they have no fun reading such posts?[/quote']

The point of the game is to have fun.

My opponent has a combo that, for me, breaks that fun element.

But I'm the rude one for being honest and declining the game.

Clearly, I must be in it for the wrong reasons, ie, to have fun.

If I don't enjoy a particular match, it's better not to play it. I hate playing vs Hamelin. Declining the game is not rude, it's better for both players. I spare him the bitching during and after the game, and I spare me the misery of watching my force ever so slowly dissolve, while unable to do anything about it.

If you find that fun, more power to you. Strokes and folks. But don't tell me I'm rude because I don't share your idea of fun. That is rude in and of itself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The point of the game is to have fun.

My opponent has a combo that, for me, breaks that fun element.

But I'm the rude one for being honest and declining the game.

Clearly, I must be in it for the wrong reasons, ie, to have fun.

No, that's not rude at all. You're in full right to talk it over with your playing partners, change, house-rule, ask them to bring different lists or stop playing - your choice, your friends.

On the other hand 2000 miles away there may be two players who love beating each other to pulp with these combos and have huge fun with it.

That's why a good place to discuss this is a thread about comparing personal experience of the game with people from around the world.

A thread where people merely discuss the mechanic, if it works for the game and how to deal with it or how to change it if it cannot be dealt with, isn't the best place to bring these outbursts... because the guys having fun with this will get defensive and everything will get derailed (which is already happening).

If I don't enjoy a particular match, it's better not to play it.

Sure, don't play. Even create threads about it. I'm merely talking about bizzare need to pop up into otherwise interesting threads to label things *no fun*, despite the fact others (at least some others) may be having perfectly good fun with it? Or perhaps we should race, who can label more combos fun/no fun?

If you find that fun, more power to you. Strokes and folks. But don't tell me I'm rude because I don't share your idea of fun. That is rude in and of itself.

Not sharing the idea is perfectly OK. Actually that's exactly what I'm asking for. I'm not saying not having fun is wrong. We all have our likes and dislikes. I'm simply speaking out against these outbursts in threads that are not in any way reviews of the game. :D

Edited by Q'iq'el
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone opined that the FILTH list was not fun to play against. You attempted to reason out why they were wrong (ie, the game is there to have tough combos to beat. Beating tough combos is part of the game. The game is fun. Therefore, FILTH is fun to play against).

This is incorrect. The reason it is incorrect is that you cannot tell someone they are actually having fun when they feel they are not.

If someone does not enjoy playing against FILTH, you cannot "fix" that for them with some sort of argument. I used Hamelin as a personal example. I've only faced a version of FILTH once, and the player barely bothered to use it to full effect on me. He just flat out owned me with Pandora herself instead.

I find Pandora tough but a challenge worth meeting. I might change my mind, depending on further play vs FILTH.

However, I find Hamelin no fun at all, whether I can win or not. A Player who feels so about a FILTH list derserves to have their opinion, and you have no place in trying to reason them out of it. Simply accept they don't like it and move on.

You appear to feel FILTH is fine and a good challenge for the game. Great. Others don't. Also great. Trying to tell someone they are wrong for not enjoying playing vs FILTH is not so great.

EDIT: Here's a good summary: You find someone having a certain opinion annoying. I find it annoying that you feel entitled to your opinion, but are annoyed by an opinion not in line with yours. If you cannot respect that a differing opinion exists, what's the point of further discussion? You don't respect where the other side is coming from.

"A: FILTH is unfun to play against, even if it can be beaten."

"B: Your opinion is wrong. It IS fun to play against. You are annoying for not agreeing with me."

Edited by paradox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You appear to feel FILTH is fine and a good challenge for the game. Great. Others don't. Also great. Trying to tell someone they are wrong for not enjoying playing vs FILTH is not so great.

Hes actually made a few posts discussing why he does not like the filth list, he just like to play the contrarion all the time. its really tiresome.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can perfectly agree with that. But that's an issue for the player's local group to discuss and resolve' date=' isn't it?[/quote']

Yup, only reason I stated it here was to show that I don't think the list breaks the game, but it is something that some people will not enjoy facing (some will).

In all honest I'm not a good enough player to really comment with any certainty on how I'd approach shutting it down. But from the models I own for my guild crew I don't have enough of those abilities above to shut down Nekima with any certainty.

Your comments make me wonder if locally we're playing with enough terrain as I find that I have to expose my models to being lured before I can even get close to try and hurt nekima or lilitu which from my tests would lead to them dying horribly once they get chain pulled from quite some distance away. I've only tested the chain lure list out to see how it works having read about it, so my experience is not 'in game' so I realise that I'm not best placed to comment on how it actually runs once you're in the thick of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see both sides of this argument, in my group we have players of varying levels. From the guy who plays Hamelin, Filth List (not neverborn, just the net list) and Viktorias. The guy who plays Seamus through and through regardless of mission (only recently started branching to Kirai) and the very casual players who play what they think is fun.

If i'm facing someone I consider to be a competitive player I break out my tried and true lists for Guild or attempt Collette. More casual players will get experimental Guild/Arcanist lists. I love going to tournaments because it breaks me out of my local meta game meet new people see their models etc. I enjoy competing against top tier players because it tests my skills and i can spend time analyzing how to defeat said lists (maybe its just the scorpio in me).

When playing casually I do not take anything that I think my opponent will not have fun fighting. No tricks just very basic straight forward lists, I will take my time explaining to my opponent what my list/master does (if its a beginner) let them take back moves its a casual/fun game. The only thing I enforce are the 1 1/2 hour time limits. This is only because with a growing community we have to end our game on time in order to pass the table to other players or have a chance to get more games in.

About refusing games, how do you know your opponent will say "hamelin" or another master you do not like facing? When he can just say faction? Would you make your list set up table, see their master and auto-concede?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information