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The Dreaded FILTH list


nilus

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Well, this is ANOTHER Perdita suggestion. I guess Family are meant to be the anti-neverborn guildies, I just wish there were better answers for the other guild Masters.

So anyway...how about just using (0) Spellbreaker from Perdita?

The Nekima needs to go early to give the +:masks effect to the Lilitus. Activate Perdita after that. Move her, Use the (0) spell with 18" range and no resist listed to remove all effects (like the extra :masks to Ca from Nekima) on 1 or more folks removing the auto trigger. Proceed to continue to use Perdita (and family) as you wish...*shrug*

So again, those with experience, shoot it full of holes. I don't play nearly often enough to render judgements on some of my own ideas.

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  • 5 weeks later...

So I played vs. a small portion of the Filth crew yesterday. It was only Nekima and 1 Liliteu, not as bad as it could be.... or was it? Perhaps it was a bit of bad luck (for me) but that one Liliteu was getting 15+ lures/ attacks an activation. I wish pandora had been there so it would not have taken so long for my models to get slain by constant weak (1) damage strikes from Liliteu. Eventually my opponent said "F**K this, I'm done." and started making regular attacks because he felt guilty about the combination (he is a very honorable fellow).

Neither of us had a fun play experience. And I honestly like malifaux less due to this combination. At least the Mini's are still fun to paint :D.

I want to play the full filth list to see if I can use strategy/schemes and good tactics to come out ahead. However that is only due to my Never Quit attitude, I don't expect to have any fun making the attempt. I think the hardest thing about beating this crew will be finding someone in the good group of people I game with who will use filth. Thanks be to all you who have posted valuable methods to combating the filth crew.

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In my test game yesterday Lilitu+Nekima (not in a Pandora crew, so not the true FILTH, but still with chaining Lure/DT) killed Colette.

Context:

- Colette player was inexperienced (in fact used my crew to see how it works), kept giving his Showgirls use soulstone and wasted the entire pool by the end of turn 3.

- Colette first had bad luck with cards and couldn't cheat the initial Lure chain. She pulled off her defensive trigger from one of the strikes though, swapped with a Manequin but so that Manequin blocked LoS to Colette (but she didn't move completely out of LoS as she could, because the opponent wanted to kill Lilitu with her later). Lilitu lost her general AP to Slow and spend her last specific AP on some meaningless spell. The Manequin then pushed away back into b2b with the Cassandra it was linked to and was no longer available for cover.

- In the next turn Colette burned her free stone to reactivate and almost killed Lilitu with Magician's Duel. Before she could reactivate though, Lilitu cast Lure on her again - this time she killed Colette, Colette healed herself with her last Soulstone, then Lure fizzled. Then Lure was recast and this time killed Colette.

If she had at least these 3 SS in the Pool, as I'd keep for the rainy day, she'd kill Lilitu no problem. As it was, the SS were spent on getting Mirrors out. :D

I still believe there's a wider context to Lure/DT efficiency and it's learning the resource management.

The combo is very punishing to players, who badly manage their resources. I'm willing to admit there are crews out there which start strained on SS or Control Hand, for whom the combo may be considerably more deadly than Showgirls (probably the least demanding crew when it comes to resource management). On the other hand I used Nekima/Lilitu in Lilith list, and unlike Pandora, that means there are 3 Nephilim, Lelu and Lilith on the board (was a 40SS game), who can fight well for themselves and have ample speed to complete objectives while Lilitu is playing with food.

I have to agree though, that having to watch bazzillion duels resulting in 1 damage each is one of the most boring events that can happen in a Malifaux game.

On the side note - Terraclips terrain, with properly designed streets (plenty of closed gates to (1)interact with) is a great equalizer, when it comes to very fast crews and things like Lure. You cannot force someone to go through the doors unless he's flying (and he can fly over the wall). Even the Flying and very fast models (Young Nephilim, Coryphée) find themselves very limited in movement by appearance of doors and by having to reach objectives within buildings, behind doors.

Enough to say that Lure in my last game (thread about the table in the Terraclips section) was used only in two turns and only against models that were willingly moved in sight of Lilitu, by an inexperienced player. Even with float (which allowed her to see behind walls), she couldn't beat the fact that Lured models can't open the doors for themselves.

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Oh I don't fault them, sorry if you got that impression. Players, especially the more competitive, will make the best lists they can that give them the best chance to win, I have no problem with that. All I was saying is that right now, most Neverborn lists will more than likely dictate the pace and style of the game, forcing us Guild players to react instead of act.

Not really. The problem with most of the recent "big" tournaments (imho) has been a bad faction balance of players playing certain factions. The two factions that have been well represented in most of the recent tournaments have not had "competition" (ie guild and certain arcanist crews present in a viable #)from certain factions/crews not being present in the tournaments faction balance. What this does is vacuum the tournaments at hand of not having viable counters/road blocks present in the respective tournaments.

Now you and others present in this thread must understand the underrepresented factions/crews do need viable skill levels of their respective operators to function in conjunction with the neverborne and outcast crews. And I am not saying absolutely that if said factions where present in proper # that would be "guarented" (sp inaccuracy lol no thesarus present) to change however when certain crews/factions are underwhelmingly represented in said events it makes it a lot easier for certain crews of said two factions to post dominating results. The main problem in my humble opinion is said crews of those two particular factions are much easier to operate than said two factions that have been not represented in the perscribed pools of factions for the tournaments.

To me if it is a big tournament (ie 24+ the best # of all factions present imho would be between 15 to 25% of each faction) involved in said tournament. As of the recent "big" american tournaments of late (hey I'm a american dude I can't comment on faction representation of any other area of the globe nor would I be the "typical" american thinking only my country of origin was the only thing that mattered) generally 50-65% of the participants have played only around 2 factions so this to me greatly effects the chances of said crew/faction running into a crew/faction that can handle said list easier than the other factions/crews involved from naturally being present and "blocking' said crew/faction from undisputed favoritism skewed their way.

Now skeptics to what I have just said would most likely input "dude what the "f" do you know. Well in my 2 lgs that I frequent on a regular and consistant basis the tournaments that are run (none unfortunately have gotten to the 24+ level as of yet) are generally between the 12-20 person variety and for the most part are generally within the % of what I said earlier per faction have never been overly represented by any faction. If certain factions/crews are actually present in healthy # not overwhelming but actually represented . Said crews/factions actually have counters present in the respective environment and it ticks and tocks away at their "supposed" dominance in the standings. Also I would add that for around a year and a half I have been playing in said tournaments and am well versed enough to have a valid opinion.

Unfortunatley gaming does "hive mind" in general with modern day society in that certain perceptions of particular crews/factions (or irl certain groups of whatever the sport, political faction, and or any # of other assorted topics/things have edges that are unrecoverable if your are not said factions/crews. This is actually the biggest problem imho with the current malifaux "trends" as of late. People are generally far to defeatist in general to actually want to put in work to uncover/exploit said "difficult" issues/things.

Now I will add that I am not saying that certain crews/factions shouldn't be brought in to a agreeable level to have certain things brought to a more tolerable level. However the main problem I see is most are far too defeatist to actually try to put work in (especially the supposed competitive types who "want to be able to have a understand of particular crews to be able to deal with them in a succesful way in a majority % base in said matchup vs matchup scenario" to actually put in the "work" and understanding of said crews to get a handle on them/exploit said weaknesses of the supposed "unbeatable" crews/lists/factions.

Edited by Odin1981
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So let me see,this is Nekima,two Lilitus. Well,without a Lelu they will melt in a couple turns regardless,unless nekima has a give neverborn a healing flip ability she can spam. Even if she can,a pair of Austringers out of Line of sight will end up pecking out the eyes of one of them and then the other. Another hilarious option to deal with these pesky little ladies,would be killjoy,Executioner,Death marshal. You pine box the Executioner and then move the Death marshal up towards the neverborn bimbos. Either they speed things up and lure him forward,or you have to run him up. When he dies,he takes a slow to die action to summon Killjoy,and the executioner pops out like a knife weilding jack in the box.

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I've been thinking about this list a lot since listing to the Bill on GL and got the chance to face it the other day.

The Austringers are great against it, but if you can't get rid of Nekima first turn then she just keeps defensive stance up the whole time.

We're going to try again this weekend and I'm going to try using LJ with Lucias again and use him to toss a lawyer out to prosecute Nekima. He won't kill her but she'll then be unfriendly to her crew.

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So anyone thought about taking Doppleganger to Mimic Lure and its Trigger? With Ca4:masks it would be harder to cast, but the auto-trigger is still there and with two Lilitu you get 8 casts a turn. :D

Also Doppelganger is a Woe, so Pandora likes it a lot... and you get bonus to initiative flip.

2 Lilitu, Nekima and Doppelganger ding at exactly 35 SS, right?

:evil:

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So anyone thought about taking Doppleganger to Mimic Lure and its Trigger? With Ca4:masks it would be harder to cast, but the auto-trigger is still there and with two Lilitu you get 8 casts a turn. :D

Also Doppelganger is a Woe, so Pandora likes it a lot... and you get bonus to initiative flip.

2 Lilitu, Nekima and Doppelganger ding at exactly 35 SS, right?

:evil:

The librarian is a better choice TBH. she can give the crew healing flips (for the small damage they take each turn) and a bonus on casting flips, so your luring at a + flip!!!!

Redonkulous.

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So let me see,this is Nekima,two Lilitus. Well,without a Lelu they will melt in a couple turns regardless,unless nekima has a give neverborn a healing flip ability she can spam. Even if she can,a pair of Austringers out of Line of sight will end up pecking out the eyes of one of them and then the other. Another hilarious option to deal with these pesky little ladies,would be killjoy,Executioner,Death marshal. You pine box the Executioner and then move the Death marshal up towards the neverborn bimbos. Either they speed things up and lure him forward,or you have to run him up. When he dies,he takes a slow to die action to summon Killjoy,and the executioner pops out like a knife weilding jack in the box.

They each heal each other 2 points, and then nekima gives them regeneration 1. so that covers the damage they cut themselves for.

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The librarian is a better choice TBH. she can give the crew healing flips (for the small damage they take each turn) and a bonus on casting flips, so your luring at a + flip!!!!

Redonkulous.

Yup, but it's already 4+ to cast, isn't it? The second flip is not that big, unless you face an opponent who understands the threat and has a good Control Hand saved to prevent the chain.

If it was :+fate to all attacks, it'd be great help, as the Lure chain usually falters on damage (from my little experience it is endless chain of duels ending with 1Dg).

And both Lilitus already have a sort of healing flip, they just spend it on themselves most of the time (doesn't mean they have to).

On the other hand having better chances at grabbing initiative is pretty big with this list, isn't it?

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They each heal each other 2 points, and then nekima gives them regeneration 1. so that covers the damage they cut themselves for.

Ok so they have to devote their abilities to keeping themselves alive. This means that damage done to them is going to stay on. So the Austringer pecking pair will do 2 to 10 damage a turn. Double that if you can manuever them into where they are only 12 inchs away.

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Ok so they have to devote their abilities to keeping themselves alive. This means that damage done to them is going to stay on. So the Austringer pecking pair will do 2 to 10 damage a turn. Double that if you can manuever them into where they are only 12 inchs away.

Their healing doesn't require the use of actions. The just heal 2 at the end of a round.

Edited by rsteelrose
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Well we can always use Sue and his Tread the Line Spell to prevent them from taking control of our model for that brief walk. Other then that if you take out the Lelu (which is required for the Lelitu to survive) then it should break down the list rather fast.

Other then that models that explode on death is one of the best ways to combat this list. Granted I've seen deadlier lists to beat

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Their healing doesn't require the use of actions. The just heal 2 at the end of a round.

Not exactly.

Lilitu chooses one friendly Nephilim within 2" of her in Resolve effects phase and heals 2 Wd (and she may target herself). That's also when she takes 3 damage (effectively 1 Dg when she heals herself).

If she is within 6" from Nekima, she Regenerates 1 Wd at the beginning of her activation.

If Lelu is alive, she gets healed by him a lot (he Regenerates 2 and she gets the same from him, he has all the blood drinking heals when attacking etc.) and she doesn't need to heal herself. Then she can start healing Nekima - 3Wd a turn together with Nekima's own regen. That's really needed if you want to keep Nekima alive... and if Nekima isn't targeted for some reason, she can do Blood Offering and grow some Nephilim (in Nephilim lists obviously)

Personally I would rather take Lelu than 2 Lilitu. So the Lure spam gets a bit weaker, but you get a huge boost in survivability and a model which can easily finish off anyone, who resisted Lure/DT and took only partial damage (Nekima is out of activations at that point, and Lelu can go Simultaneously with Lilitu, not giving opponent a chance to retreat).

Edited by Q'iq'el
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Well we can always use Sue and his Tread the Line Spell to prevent them from taking control of our model for that brief walk. Other then that if you take out the Lelu (which is required for the Lelitu to survive) then it should break down the list rather fast.

Other then that models that explode on death is one of the best ways to combat this list. Granted I've seen deadlier lists to beat

I don't think Lure = taking control. Sue won't help against that.

Spells that give control over opponent models are clearly described as such - mainly Obey and Alpha and some of the construct related abilities IIRC.

Lure causes forced movement - you have to move according to the rules for "Push towards", but it is the owner of the model moving it, not the opponent (that's why you can take steps to avoid terrain etc.).

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Sue wont help against pushes. But like i said,make it a model that you dont want to have near you,and give that as the only lure target. Also consider some immune to influence models to reduce the effectiveness of that list.

And like i was saying,if they have to use all their healing ability just offsetting the lack of lelu then any damage they take will stick around,and they are not particularly durable.

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Guild has as good a time against this list as anyone due to the number of Stubborn / I2I models you can field (especially once you start using Pale Rider).

You dont really need to do anything special to beat it. Just your standard lure-avoidance tricks, then blow Nekima up when you get a chance. This list is massively blown out of proportion in terms of effectiveness tbh.

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Guild has as good a time against this list as anyone due to the number of Stubborn / I2I models you can field (especially once you start using Pale Rider).

You dont really need to do anything special to beat it. Just your standard lure-avoidance tricks, then blow Nekima up when you get a chance. This list is massively blown out of proportion in terms of effectiveness tbh.

If you can stay out of Pandora's and Nekima's bubbles. Remember, Pandora deals a wd for every failed wp duel within 12 in. and Nekima gives enemies a -2 wp within 6 in.

Plus, Nekima and the lelitu's irresistibles ignore talents like immune to influence. As if that wasn't enough, any neverborn player worth their salt will activate Nekima first and defensive stance so if you don't deal with her before she activates she'll have :+fate:+fate to her defense.

Edited by rsteelrose
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If you can stay out of Pandora's and Nekima's bubbles. Remember, Pandora deals a wd for every failed wp duel within 12 in. and Nekima gives enemies a -2 wp within 6 in.

I think you missed the point. It was that at Lure ranges outside of the bubble, you have generally the best chances of most models in the game to resist Lures. Plus you have excellent I2I/equivalent models in Peacekeeper and Ryle that can't be lured period unless Pandora puts herself into your killzone. These aren't models that are anti-Pandora specifically either; they're good against every Neverborn master.

Combine that with your low movement values and proper use of defensive stance and you can make it very hard for Lilitu to effectively chain Lure you to your death. You only need one good model's activation, or one chain activation with family, and you can deal a blow to that list it can't recover from due to its tiny model count. Or one activation with Perdita if she's your master, ignoring defensive Wp duels on that entire list, to blow away anything she likes.

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Sue wont help against pushes. But like i said,make it a model that you dont want to have near you,and give that as the only lure target. Also consider some immune to influence models to reduce the effectiveness of that list.

And like i was saying,if they have to use all their healing ability just offsetting the lack of lelu then any damage they take will stick around,and they are not particularly durable.

Its not the pushes it's that he becomes effectively a 2nd gov proxy (though at the same time less dangerous)for your important models and he throws up a middle finger to pacify/incite effects from dora.

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