The Dreaded FILTH list

[nilus]

So if you follow the gamers lounge you know that Nix came up with a pretty nasty Neverborn list. Its main evil component is Nekima with two Lilitu. Basically Nekima gives them the suit they need to chain lure and smack.

Its a pretty awful combo that some say is broken.

So how do we guild handle it.

I would love to here everyones ideas but here are mine

1) Kill Nekima. I know that seems obvious but its important to state. She needs to die. Also its worth noting she is one big lady(HT 4) so she is virtually unable to find any blocking terrain. So target her with ranged attacks from models who can ignore cover(Nino, Santiago[paired offsets cover]) or focus shots from other range units.

2) Hide, Hide, Hide. Don't let the Lilitu get you in LOS unless you have a plan to take them out. Austigers are great for this tactic because they can still hit things while hiding. But Ortega crews can hide and wait there opponent out and then spring a well timed Alpha Strike to bring the hurt.

3) Play your Strategy and Scheme. This is Malifaux 101 but its worth repeating. Its sometimes not a bad idea to sacrifice a few models to the lure of doom, if it ties up your opponents models and you pull of your strategy.

4) While still talking about sacrifice. Two Lilitus and a Nekima cost 27 points. If you need to sacrifice 27 of your own points to kill them then its not a bad trade. The rest of the list is not super formidale without that support. You might end up having to deal with Pandora(who is good but not great without support) and some Nephlim(tot, young, possibly a Mature). This means sucide runs with Papa Loco or Witchling stalkers may not be a bad strategy. Honestly I have to test that one.

5) Out active them. Those three model cost a lot. For 27 points you can bring 6 Death marshals(almost 7).

So those are my first theorfaux thoughts. I hope to get a crack at this list soon, but worse case I am definitely gonna challenge it at Adepticon when I see Bill, unless he has come up with something even worse by then.

[karavak]

Papa loco should be very useful against this list I think. The combo tends to be grouped up so they wouldn't want to Lure him and risk the 5dg IF they thought someone else could step in a do the 2dg to finish off the Lilitus.

Anything with immune to influence helps cut the 18" lure down unless Pandora is pushed out front. But just because pandora is out front doesn't really change the combo..

Witchling stalker could be helpful as the combo breaker with reflect magic to help break up the group a little bit.

Ryle with Breach Psychosis.. unless pandora would override that.

Just some thoughts.. I haven't started Guild yet but have dead justice so it's on my list..

[paradox]

Pandora's ability confuses me something awful. Is there a list of abilities it DOES NOT overcome?

[wrabbit37]

I've played with and against the FILTH list - Nikema is key. It's worth taking her out early, even if it means you might lose something of your own.

[edonil]

Just speaking in general terms but...wouldn't it almost always be worth taking out Nekima early if you get the chance?

[Vlad the Mad]

But how do you take out Nekima with the Guild, especially in the first few turns?

[Turbodog]

I've not faced this or thought of it before, so I'm just looking for people to respond to why this does/doesn't work...

I would think, as it's essentially people casting spells at you, that Sonnia's crew with Advanced Counterspell and/or Reflect Magic would work as a countermeasure. Maybe not?

[nix]

Some strategies to use against it:

1. Avatar Sonnia - when this bad girl counter-spells, it hurts. It is going to take a bit to get her out but if you can, get her onto the board.

2. Sonnia - Sonnia alone can counter-spell the lures which are the real killing power in this list. Be careful, a savvy FILTH player will run your hand to 0 eating up your counter spells.

3. Papa - use the super-obey list (Papa, Nephilim, Abeula, Perdita) and toss Papa down the field to blow up in the clustered up Nephilim. Just be very careful about Pandora, as she can do a lot to your crew alone. Keep stones and cards available for Perdita and do what you can to keep her from the board edges.

4. Quick Draw with Perdita - this works really well. If Perdita is in range to quick-draw shoot when the Lilitu's cast, she can at least put a hurt out there.

5. Stubborn helps. Yup, again this comes down to the Ortega crew. Just be careful putting a Gov. Proxy in, as Pandora can make you run, and the Governor is not happy when you run.

6. Numbers. This list can do a great job on Target Priority. If you have multiples then there is not much to prioritize. 3x Witchling Stalkers, 3x Marshals, 3x Guild guard, 4x Guild hounds. The list will kill 1-3 of these a turn on average, but then your out-activating the rest of the FILTH list.

7. It has been said, but Kill Nekima. The target priority for this list is:

1. Nekima
   
2. Pandora if you have the shot (a big maybe)
   
3. Lelu/Young/Mature Nephilim
   
4. Lilitu
   

Lilitu will do the least damage overall, although she will lure and kill anything she can see. Take out Nekima and the list crumples.

What to stay away from?

1. Do not rely on Immune to Influence. Pandora strips this away and you get boned on your constructs.

2. Watch the board edges. Pandora (again) is in this crew, so stay toward the center of the board.

3.Do not rely on Manifesting early. If you can manifest your avatar early, fantastic! If not, do not sink everything into it as it can hurt you.

[Dolomyte]

you'd be amazed how often Sonnia is not the target or not in range to counterspell. Also counterspelling will drain your hand of cards, (2 per 1 cast, assuming no tomes), at which point you lose the ability to cheat wp flips.

The best tactic IMO for guild to deal with this is the Lady J / Austringer / Lucius List. Lady J or her totem can allow the austringers to ignore pandora's defensive ability, or the lelitus for that matter, and then they can pound away with Cb7 attacks on the girls / pandora herself from behind complete and total cover. Lucius is there for ordering more strikes, and advanced training, which puts them to the ridiculous CB9 on the raptors.

Edit- Nix is right, the papa bomb is also an amazingly effective deterrent, though almost as jerkoffish to take. the pandora crew needs to be clumped together, and even with pandora doing prevent flips she could die to the bomb.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Q'iq'el]

But how do you take out Nekima with the Guild, especially in the first few turns?

She's only Df4. 12 Wounds may be intimidating, but it isn't all that much, considering she practically can't hide.

At Wp6 she's slightly better than average Nephilim, but it makes all sense in the world to burn a Soulstone to Obey her and massacre the other crew (or get her out in the open, where everybody can target her).

Activation-wise, she'll have to move before the Lilitu, if you want to start Luring opponents off the bat. If you wait till that moment with obey and alpha strike, you can pull Nekima out with obey, shot her to death and she won't be able to respond till the next turn.

But most of the time there won't even be any need to obey her to pull her out (unless for range's sake). She can't hide behind buildings, never mind fences and such. Typical obstacles don't grant her any cover either.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[nix]

Q'iq'el has a great point. Obey Nekima to attack the rest of her crew is a real nice trick. Keep in mind that her WP actually beats Pandora when you are obeying her, since during the Obey Nekima is not a friendly model to the crew. With this, Pandora becomes an enemy for one action, hitting her with the -2 WP bubble.

One of the biggest threat a Zoraida crew poses to this crew is an Obey'd Nekima tearing it apart at the seams with her big damn sword. Use the same trick with our own Obeys.

Its not as reliable, but a Lawyer tossing out a Censure-Cast on the Lilitu's is also a nice little bug to slow things down. It sure doesn't stop anything, but it slows it down a fair amount.

[FoeRender]

Perdita and family so far is my never borne killers , awesome will power def. and can alpha strike models they want dead . against filth going with your family as one or two groups allows you to get use out of all your activations before they mess with you .

[Turbodog]

I love this discussion. It's wonderful to hear those with good experience debate ideas.

Now that you mention it, I can see how this list would just drain cards from advanced counterspell.

I know that nix mentioned the downside of the governor's proxy vs. a pandora list in that the proxy will tend to kill our own models if they fail morale duels. So that's a big down side/something to worry about. But ignoring that a second, what about Governor's Decree? Seems like a good range, anti trigger ability that doesn't necessarily rely on having to take Perdita as your master. (Although also doesn't mind Perdita as an option).

Again, I have little experience and would enjoy hearing what others think. From what I can tell, this would remove the auto-trigger issue (and may be especially good if the FILTH list needs to bunch up models).

[Dolomyte]

I love this discussion. It's wonderful to hear those with good experience debate ideas.

Now that you mention it, I can see how this list would just drain cards from advanced counterspell.

I know that nix mentioned the downside of the governor's proxy vs. a pandora list in that the proxy will tend to kill our own models if they fail morale duels. So that's a big down side/something to worry about. But ignoring that a second, what about Governor's Decree? Seems like a good range, anti trigger ability that doesn't necessarily rely on having to take Perdita as your master. (Although also doesn't mind Perdita as an option).

Again, I have little experience and would enjoy hearing what others think. From what I can tell, this would remove the auto-trigger issue (and may be especially good if the FILTH list needs to bunch up models).

The main concern I have with the decree is the fact you need Line of sight to use it, and its not range 18, which the lure is. The reason I prefer the papa bomb or austringer spam is that both of those can operate at an equal or longer distance then the lure, and they also both operate out of sight of the luring models. If you could get the model close enough without the neverborn player ganking it, it would definitely stop the triggering, but probably only temporarily.

[Vlad the Mad]

The Justice-Lucius-Austringer combination is what strikes me as the most effective of the things mentioned so far, although it takes time to set up properly, and your opponent will have plenty of time to react. Many cheap minions to out-activate your opponent could be effective as well.

Most of the other comments seem to be along the lines of "it won't stop it, bit it might help a bit". I think we need to work toward finding a more certain way do deal with the problem. So, it's the second turn and Nekima just finished activating. She's standing about 12~16" from your crew, hiding behind a Ht6 building. The Lilitu's are ready to Lure you to death once you enter their range ,with Pandy hiding nearby to make sure you get damage for every failed WP test. What do you take, and how to you get rid of Nekima?

[mpangelu]

Please clarify something, I haven't been able to find anything saying something can't be pushed towards a model even if it is already in b2b contact... So.. that being said... isn't this a pretty much infinite loop that results in them dying... Albeit you have to fail to cast, but as has been mentioned you only need a 4 to get off lure, and its auto on the double take...so.. as long as you DON'T cheat up off a 1,2, or 3... or you get black joker.. they still have 2 more attempts after that... so.. wow? Or am I getting that wrong?

Something I've been considering is the current version of Lucious I'm running(based on events). But I think it would work very well against him.

Lucious, Drill Sergeant, 2 Austringers, and 2-3 Guild Guardsmen and 1-2 Guild hounds. Which fits into a 27ss bracket very nicely.. the hounds are pretty much for sac if the need be.

Keep in mind this works best if you can find LoS blocking terrain. But either way.

Basically, keep everyone out of los, link the drill seargeant to a austringer, pop his firing range aura....

Second, gogo lucious making them shoot 18" up to 3 times... I mean he needs an 8 to do it but can do it 3 times. More if you sac a dog or something for reactive, if you don't sac well then your popping off 3 Austringer shots at 18" with CB 9 and positive damage flips....who also ignore los and cover.... so.. yeah... and thats 3 times before they go...I feel confident in being able to take out one or two of them in a turn if they are in range for lure. And I have the initiative syncs in the group. You can also use lucious to walk a guardsmen up and then activate him to move the whole group.. This is all probably pretty standard tactics with lucious but just saying, the ability to outrange them is pretty awsome.

Also pointing out hoffman with his overide edict on a peacekeeper can get him there and then get going crazy on someone! Not to mention Hoff with his machine puppet does a hefty damage output. Point being you can easily remove one person from the combination quite easily with some guild masters.

[Turbodog]

Also pointing out hoffman with his overide edict on a peacekeeper can get him there and then get going crazy on someone! Not to mention Hoff with his machine puppet does a hefty damage output.

I envision a little kink in pulling this off with Hoffman and a Peacekeeper. The problem is that your opponent HAS to have a turn between when you move and when you get off your attacks. It's surviving that one activation that's a problem.

Scenario above for setup. Nekima moves into position.

Peacekeeper activates and moves up to engage. There's no way for Hoffman to activate immediately off the Peacekeeper. So now it's the opponent's turn, Pandy wreaks havoc moving stripping ItI and/or just going after Hoffman himself...or if Pandy doens't need to activate and the Hoff is in the "box opens bubble" already, then just lure away!

Maybe there's a way to activate Peacekeeper first (to move) then Hoffman second immediately (to power attacks), but I don't know what it is. The enemy activation in between is the issue here.

[Dolomyte]

Please clarify something, I haven't been able to find anything saying something can't be pushed towards a model even if it is already in b2b contact... So.. that being said... isn't this a pretty much infinite loop that results in them dying... Albeit you have to fail to cast, but as has been mentioned you only need a 4 to get off lure, and its auto on the double take...so.. as long as you DON'T cheat up off a 1,2, or 3... or you get black joker.. they still have 2 more attempts after that... so.. wow? Or am I getting that wrong?

It was errata'd so that the spell only repeats on a failed resist, so its not as easy as it use to be, but its still very easy, which is the problem you guys are discussing here.

Something I've been considering is the current version of Lucious I'm running(based on events). But I think it would work very well against him.

Lucious, Drill Sergeant, 2 Austringers, and 2-3 Guild Guardsmen and 1-2 Guild hounds. Which fits into a 27ss bracket very nicely.. the hounds are pretty much for sac if the need be.

Keep in mind this works best if you can find LoS blocking terrain. But either way.

Basically, keep everyone out of los, link the drill seargeant to a austringer, pop his firing range aura....

Second, gogo lucious making them shoot 18" up to 3 times... I mean he needs an 8 to do it but can do it 3 times. More if you sac a dog or something for reactive, if you don't sac well then your popping off 3 Austringer shots at 18" with CB 9 and positive damage flips....who also ignore los and cover.... so.. yeah... and thats 3 times before they go...I feel confident in being able to take out one or two of them in a turn if they are in range for lure. And I have the initiative syncs in the group. You can also use lucious to walk a guardsmen up and then activate him to move the whole group.. This is all probably pretty standard tactics with lucious but just saying, the ability to outrange them is pretty awsome.

Unless im missing something, you wont be able to make the austringers attack at range 18 multiple times. The action that lets them do that is a 2 action that gives them a single ranged 18 attack, which you could infact do at cb9 that ignore cover, los, and even get a + on. Lucius can allow them to attack at their normal range of 12 3 times though.

Also pointing out hoffman with his overide edict on a peacekeeper can get him there and then get going crazy on someone! Not to mention Hoff with his machine puppet does a hefty damage output. Point being you can easily remove one person from the combination quite easily with some guild masters

The peacekeeper is nice, the problem it faces will be it will die due to plink damage from pandora, the reason I support using lady justice with lucius and the austringers is lady justice's ability "Blind Justice" allows the austringers to ignore the defensive abilities of the neverborn models. Pandora's weakness is her low wounds and defense, which the austringers would then be able to capitalize on.

[Soundwave]

Papa loco and witchlings up front for blastey goodness. Anything with slow to die probably helps as well. But everyone loves witchlings.

If they ever lure Sonnia, let them lure her until she is in range to flame stuff, cheat high or counterspell it, then activate and blast their faces.

Not sure how it'd work in practice, but noone likes when everything blows up (literally) in your face when you've managed to pull off your evil masterplan.

[mpangelu]

Lucious allows them to make a strike, the Hunting Raptor (the one at 18) is a strike. If it was a basic strike I could see that, but as it is, is the strike defined as a (1) action or a strike? That would make a difference but still the strategy is interesting.

[Turbodog]

...the reason I support using lady justice with lucius and the austringers is lady justice's ability "Blind Justice" allows the austringers to ignore the defensive abilities of the neverborn models. Pandora's weakness is her low wounds and defense, which the austringers would then be able to capitalize on.

Does Blind Justice work? This errata is also up on Ratty's post regarding both lilitu and nekima models:

'Enemy models must win a Wp → 12 duel when targeting this model with an attack or the action fails. This may not be ignored by any talent

I would think that means you can't Blind Justice away that defense?

[Dolomyte]

Lucious allows them to make a strike, the Hunting Raptor (the one at 18) is a strike. If it was a basic strike I could see that, but as it is, is the strike defined as a (1) action or a strike? That would make a difference but still the strategy is interesting.

Its in the rules forum somewhere, but I believe when a talent mentions a strike, it means a basic strike (IE, not a charge, not whirling dervish or whatever lilith does)

[paradox]

Blind Justice is a spell, not talent.

[Dolomyte]

Does Blind Justice work? This errata is also up on Ratty's post regarding both lilitu and nekima models:

I would think that means you can't Blind Justice away that defense?

Lelitu does not have that ability, at least not on my card, on mine they need to win a wp > wp duel which does not say cannot be ignored, so in this case, yes, blind justice would ignore it, Blind justice DEFINITELY ignores pandora's ability, as it has been ruled multiple times.

They could not ignore the showgirls ability. which is the cannot be ignored one.

Also, nekima has no such defensive ability.

-edit Paradox also makes a valid point.

[Dolomyte]

Another issue is the fact that in a tournament you are not going to know your opponent is using this garbage, unless you either saw him using it already, he only has these models, or he flat out says it for some reason.

For those reasons I like the Lady J, Austringer, Lucius and Family Solutions because I think those are the two strongest lists guild has to offer for any scenario. I frequently use the austringer spam to amazing results.