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Stitched Together / drain souls and Slaughter


Dolomyte

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I know this is a resolved thread, but frankly I don't care.

This ruling is terrible. Its not a democracy so we don't get a vote, but people surely should be allowed to voice their opinion on it. If I draw shared slaughter in a tournament with neverborn there is no reason not to take three stitched together where I get a 15 soulstone handicap. I can play lilith, camp soulstones and hide the rest of my models. The stitched will kill at least one model, and then all I need to do is drain souls with lilith and have a gaurunteed 2 vp to 0 victory. Bodyguard makes it 4, and toss in breakthrough for 6. the opponent could do NOTHING to stop that.

This is probably an issue with slaughter more then anything. but its a ridiculous ruling. It needs to be talked about some more on wyrds end.

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There are a few cases where kill credit gets fuzzy. Posion counters are another one which came up recently - it's not as officially stamped as this one, but I don't believe that kills via poison count either.

I think the issue is more with Slaughter, which has been through several revisions and causes more than a few headaches.

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How does that discussion end with them being free points for slaughter, I would love to be wrong, please show me any logic in making that call.

"Well, Player A shot and killed the stitched, so he should get credit"

"No no no, the intention of stitched togethers Does Not Die! was so that opposing players would never get credit for the kill"

"Really?"

"yeah"

"Alright then"

Is that the discussion? I know I'm treading on thin ice with my tone and attitude in this post, and I'm saying this as a person who plays neverborn and frequently uses stitched. Its not a fair mechanic, it completely invalidates one of the strategies (granted, probably the worst of all the strategies, Drain souls is just as bad).

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So what do you do if you get Shared slaugher and you are going against neverborn.

Pick to Schemes you can do and work on denying your opponents VP.

Or find other ways to get rid of the stiched. They can't be killed but you can sacrifice them.

Instead of throwing your hands up and saying "This ruling isn't fair", crack open your book and start thinking of ways you can counter it.

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I don't think it invalidates the strategy and more than summoning crews do.

When I'm playing Rezzers in Slaughter, every new model I pop out just hands my opponent more kill points, and poor Hamelin (heh, how rarely do we hear THAT ;) ) has it even worse. One of Kirai's main abilities changes Seishin from sacrificed to killed - which is normally good, but in Slaughter ends up giving your opponent points for it when it wouldn't otherwise. As LoboSteele pointed out in the original discussion, using Controlled Detonation or just outright blasting your own models denies your opponent kill points. Trying to use models which leverage poison denies you kill points.

I don't love the ruling either, and think Slaughter still needs some tweaking. But it's hardly an auto-win just for throwing in a few Stitched. As Ratty says you can always look for sacrifice options (up-powered Devours, for instance), or play your own denial - sacrificing your own models via Consume Soul, or using other sacrificial effects of your own.

So I can certainly understand disliking the ruling, but I don't think it's as game-destroying as your hyperbole might indicate. If nothing else, the ruling's 3 months old, and we've hardly had a dominant wave of Stitched Slaughter crusaders.

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So what do you do if you get Shared slaugher and you are going against neverborn.

Pick to Schemes you can do and work on denying your opponents VP.

Or find other ways to get rid of the stiched. They can't be killed but you can sacrifice them.

Instead of throwing your hands up and saying "This ruling isn't fair", crack open your book and start thinking of ways you can counter it.

If I get shared slaughter as neverborn I am going to use this gameplan, hoping my opponent gets pissed off and comes on the forum to complain until it gets changed. If I knew its what the person was going to do I would try to hunt down Lilith, but with her holding a ton of soulstones and actively running away good luck with that.

Its not an unfair ruling, its a stupid ruling. people should not have to have a list specifically in mind to deal with the possiblity that a neverborn player is going to exploit a BS ruling to take an easy win.

And if your arguement is that a good player should simply not take advantage of this, I disagree, its not like the hamelin infinite loop which was an unintended glitch wyrd was working on fixing, this is something they ruled is fair game, and if people want to win they should shove this ruling down wyrds throat.

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So I can certainly understand disliking the ruling, but I don't think it's as game-destroying as your hyperbole might indicate. If nothing else, the ruling's 3 months old, and we've hardly had a dominant wave of Stitched Slaughter crusaders.

I agree, slaughter sucks as a strategy, in a tournament with assigned strategies I would hope the TO ignores it, if its random you deal with what you get dealt.

I was unaware of this ruling until today, I am going to make people complain about this ruling in tournaments I enter. I promise you that.

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To be perfectly honest, I'm not really impressed with the "I'm going to go out and be as big an ass as I possibly can so everyone complains about me to change a rule I want changed!" tactic. But I suppose if you can make it work, it will prove your point.

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I dont want them to complain about me, I want them to complain about the rule and the strategy. I would love to think people will just read this thread and hop on board with complaining about the rule and strategy, but I respect the approach that game companies adopt of "we'll see how it plays out at events and tournaments"

Theoryfaux is great, but I doubt anyone will listen to it.

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Taking Summoning to Slaughter is a bad choice and it one you have the choice to do. Same with gremlins. But its your choice.

Taking Stitched together vs your opponents slaughter basically denies you opponents strategy. 98% of the models out there can't deal with it. Before the starting turn 1 you can see getting 4VP is virtually impossible.

I like taking Rasputina if my opponent takes Claim Jump, because clearing a confined space or blocking it off an area is easy with her. But 95% of the crew that come to the table can at least try something to stop it. Either breaking ice pillars, kill her, use solustone to prevent damage, etc. It would have to be a wierd army that cannot deal with ice pillars. Again its that player choice to bring a force that can only do a max of 3 damage in melee.

I think the ability that keeps them alive is very strong in deliver a message, but its not broken. But in reference to slaughter it is excessively unbalanced.

I play 7 masters and have close to 70 figs, I only have 1 models that can deal with them and that is Colette. (I don't have the Neverborn in my signature yet). I have some of the larger collection in my LGS, and I can tell you I don't think anyone in my LGS has more than 2 models that sacrifice opponents models.

Are the stitched together balanced in slaughter... the answer is NO. Even a mediocre player using them against slaughter can deny your opponent VPs with them. Does every faction have the ability to sacrifice them, NO.

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I agree with you Nilus, that is a viable tactic. But what if you god forbid flip it again. Or in this case your giving up one of your soulstones to avoid a stupid strategy. you might be able to do a gentlemens agreement to just skip slaughter, but thats not fair to the rest of the tournament. you might even have a TO who likes slaughter and uses that in a fixed strategy format *each round is a pre-determined strategy*

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You do know that you can spend a soul stone to reflip your strategy right. Even in a tourney. Just reflip so its not shared slaughter.

Yes you have the choice. But do you want to ALWAYS have to do it. If it reaches a point there is forced, I think it proves that this is unbalanced.

Plus you can only reflip once and if you get the same one you have to take it. If this is the only option then it proves there is an imbalance.

FYI: it doe not even have to be shared slaughter, it just needs to be one of you get slaughter for an unbalanced game.

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Or play to the Schemes you choose and prevent your opponent from achieving his or her Strategy and Schemes. your 1 VP to their 0 VP is still a win.

Being 'stuck' with a particular Strategy doesn't mean you're forced to try and complete it.

So in essence what your saying is "So little jimmy, your not going to win slaughter, but try and pick schemes wisely and hope the neverborn player does not pick just as well."

Just because that gives you a chance, albeit what I would call a tiny one, of winning, does not mean the interaction is any less messed up.

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I think everyone needs to stop hyperventilating on this. It's not an auto-lose.

Concentrate on killing the things you do get points for. Announce something like Grudge to make your opponent think twice about throwing his point-safe Stitched into the battle, or Eye for an Eye that will punish them for making you ignore their Stitched.

Is it hard to face? Sure. Does it have an advantage with a particular strategy? Yeah. You ever tried to outrun Perdita in Treasure Hunt? Yeah, that too.

I really don't see it as being THAT broken. Have any of you actually played a few games with this, to see how unbeatable it is? Tried it with different factions? Or are we really going around on this over something that's never been put on the table?

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No, I'm saying that there are more strategic layers to this game than your paraprhasings want to admit.

From day one preventing/ignoring the opponent's strategy and your own and focusing on Schemes has been a valid way to play. It remains so and in the case of your issues with the Stitched Together it's doubly so to prevent a Shared Slaughter from turning into what you perceive as a no-win situation for the Neverborn's opponent.

Sure, you might not score all 4 VPs for the Strategy, but as I said above, winning with 1 point is still a win. It might not be the way players first think of a win (Schemes win vs. Strategies win) but it's a completely valid strategy and one I use on my opponents often, especially when they're trying to overpower me with what they think is an unbeatable Crew. Unbeatable if I'm playing it their way, less so when I focus on my own plans.

Edited by Keltheos
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this is currently theoryfaux. I am going to test it as soon as we get together to play (prolly tomorrow night) I encourage you guys to test it as well, i'll even give you the list and the turn by turn breakdown

35SS (The level I've seen most tournaments at)

Lilith

3x Stitched Together 15ss

2x Desperate Merc 4ss

Blackblood 6ss

2x Alps 6ss

4 ss 4ss

Shared Slaughter is the strategy in question.

As the lilith player you take Bodyguard (lilith) and A mother's love, both announced.

Turn one

BBS goes, blood offering, pass counter to lilith

Lilith goes, kill one of the desperate mercs, drain blood, BBS gets a token, BBS gets the healing flip

Stitched together move forward / use the cloud effect.

Turn two

BBS goes, pass counter to lilith

Lilith goes, kills merc, drain blood, BBS gets counter (irrelevant)

Lilith (1) Drain Soul to kill the alps and the BBS for 3 SS, bringing her pool to 11. (I believe it was ruled in a colette thread that 8 is simply the starting max, but you could go above that)

Stitched together move / attack / cloud whatever, they really are trying to kill one model. (2 ss worth is all they need)

Turn 3 - 6

Lilith runs and hides. get behind cover, go defensive, toss up forests. Just move her 18 inches a turn.

End of game

The opponent should be able to get 4 vp from schemes (assuming he took easy stuff like bodyguard and breakthrough), The neverborn player should have 6.

Killing more then opponent, killing 1.5 times opponent. 2 is 1.5 times more then 0.

Prove me wrong, Hell, I would love to prove myself wrong. But im not.

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this is currently theoryfaux. I am going to test it as soon as we get together to play (prolly tomorrow night) I encourage you guys to test it as well, i'll even give you the list and the turn by turn breakdown

35SS (The level I've seen most tournaments at)

Lilith

3x Stitched Together 15ss

2x Desperate Merc 4ss

Blackblood 6ss

2x Alps 6ss

4 ss 4ss

Shared Slaughter is the strategy in question.

As the lilith player you take Bodyguard (lilith) and A mother's love, both announced.

Turn one

BBS goes, blood offering, pass counter to lilith

Lilith goes, kill one of the desperate mercs, drain blood, BBS gets a token, BBS gets the healing flip

Stitched together move forward / use the cloud effect.

Turn two

BBS goes, pass counter to lilith

Lilith goes, kills merc, drain blood, BBS gets counter (irrelevant)

Lilith (1) Drain Soul to kill the alps and the BBS for 3 SS, bringing her pool to 11. (I believe it was ruled in a colette thread that 8 is simply the starting max, but you could go above that)

Stitched together move / attack / cloud whatever, they really are trying to kill one model. (2 ss worth is all they need)

Turn 3 - 6

Lilith runs and hides. get behind cover, go defensive, toss up forests. Just move her 18 inches a turn.

End of game

The opponent should be able to get 4 vp from schemes (assuming he took easy stuff like bodyguard and breakthrough), The neverborn player should have 6.

Killing more then opponent, killing 1.5 times opponent. 2 is 1.5 times more then 0.

Prove me wrong, Hell, I would love to prove myself wrong. But im not.

youre right. the problem also exists with the million ways to kill your own models withh various masters and deny people schemes like Grudge/KP.

By the letter of the rules, it works. But if Wyrd want Malifaux to be a real tournament game and compete with the likes of Warmachine (and also just not to have the fun sucked out of it in friendlies) they need to get to work on errata'ing stuff like this.

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youre right. the problem also exists with the million ways to kill your own models withh various masters and deny people schemes like Grudge/KP.

By the letter of the rules, it works. But if Wyrd want Malifaux to be a real tournament game and compete with the likes of Warmachine (and also just not to have the fun sucked out of it in friendlies) they need to get to work on errata'ing stuff like this.

Well, you dont need to announce grudge or kill protegee.

Also, malifaux is a real tournament game, it just has a single poorly written strategy. Some of the privateer strategies are just as badly written, plus caster kill rules all.

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Prove me wrong, Hell, I would love to prove myself wrong. But im not.

So... Is this going to be the tone of this entire discussion? If we're seriously looking for alternatives to beat what you see as a powerful concept, I'm all for having the discussion. If it's going to be you declaring how right you are after every declaration of "Well then I'd just..." it's really not worth either of our time.

But I'll go ahead and take a shot at the next round, and see what happens.

You're essentially throwing 15SS worth of models against my entire crew, with the expectation that you can kill at least one thing before they die. For the sake of our discussion I'm going to assume I know you're enough of a cheeseball that I know this is coming - after all, you're trying to prove a point, and that only works if everyone knows you're proving a point.

So, in general terms, I'd start with relatively tough models, preferably with healing options. Since you've got so few models, I expect you'd try and keep them together - if you split up and end up 1:2 against my crew, you're not going to kill squat. So I'd also look for opportunities to force them to spread out, and abilities to pull them out of position - Belles, or the Hunter. Hans' ability to ignore the Stitched's cloud would make him a solid inclusion, and with your few Stitched forced to huddle up, Jack Daw's auras should wreak havoc.

Hoffman should shred that approach, top to bottom. Belles should be able to spread your Stitched enough that they're pretty easy to pick off. Kirai can use enough tough models and healing to deal with the Stitched, and sacrifice her own spirits at will to keep you from getting the points. Really, any master can do the same thing you did - if you get a model down a fair bit, shooting their own to keep you from killing it denies you the points. And after all that you're in serious risk of being forced to engage solo with Lilith against most of my crew, because otherwise you tie/lose.

Will any of that guarantee a win? No, but those are options just off the top of my head, that are available and usable by pretty much any faction.

Honestly, I'm surprised. You're trying too hard to over-cheese it, IMHO. In trying to create the most extreme setup you can, you've also come up with a very fragile one. You'd be much better off just using the Stitched as the core of your force, taking advantage of the fact that your opponent's kills won't give him points.

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BBS goes, blood offering, pass counter to lilith

Just this one: You cannot pass counters. If you take a look at Ressurectionists, they create their counters on the ground and they can use counters within x" for their spell precisely to bypass that restriction. Neverborn can do that with Grow/Mature, but not with other spells.

Because it is Black Shaman who gains the Blood Counter, it stays on him until he dies or until you use it up (then you drop it on the table and another model can pick it up).

That may be a minor thing, but it is a reminder: if something seems really broken to you, but others disagree, chances are you need to play more. Especially if you don't have full grasp of the rules yet.

Edited by Q'iq'el
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