Regnak Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Will any of the Puppet Wars stuff be released in individual blisters? I eventually want to pickup the Puppet Wars set but have got to get through other bits first so that won't be until its on general release. I am just very keen to get my hands on the Puppet Version of Seamus ASAP and was wondering if he and any of the other masters would be released individually at some stage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Caroland Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regnak Posted July 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Nope. That answer seemed very final?! Thats fine, at least I know. I will just have to wait till I pickup the whole set. Thanks Nathan. Edited July 23, 2011 by Regnak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frost Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 This is a real shame, since I live in a town with tons of miniature game enthusiasts, but no one wants to buy into a game where you have to pay $32 for a box of 6 minis and you only actually want one of them. Forget about convincing them to trade; they are miniatures gamers, not card gamers. There is no trace of the trading mindset in miniature gaming. If you want the model, then you will buy that one model. If it comes in a set, then anything more than 25% unneeded models will discourage a buyer from getting it altogether. It would not be so bad if the game had a big enough market where bit sellers would start sharing out the kits, but that has not happened yet. The random Teddy thing is also a bad move. Teddy is an iconic part of the Malifaux world, and to make it only available randomly will will more likely than not simply shut people down to the game, rather than make them frantically buy $32 boxes just to have a small chance of getting a single one. Even bigger miniature companies won't chance burning bridges with a marketing ploy like that. I like Puppet Wars, and I think it is a great addition to Wyrd's growing list of products. However, it is marketed horribly and will likely be DOA in many locations where people will flat out refuse the massive expense to get the Toy Box they want. Keep in mind that Malifaux drew many to the game because it was far more reasonable in terms of cost than many other games. The vast majority of Puppets War players will be those very same people. I honestly think that a much different method of marketing miniatures for Puppet Wars is not only necessary, but inevitable if the game is to gain any ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wurmwood Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) This is a real shame, since I live in a town with tons of miniature game enthusiasts, but no one wants to buy into a game where you have to pay $32 for a box of 6 minis and you only actually want one of them. Forget about convincing them to trade; they are miniatures gamers, not card gamers. There is no trace of the trading mindset in miniature gaming. If you want the model, then you will buy that one model. If it comes in a set, then anything more than 25% unneeded models will discourage a buyer from getting it altogether. It would not be so bad if the game had a big enough market where bit sellers would start sharing out the kits, but that has not happened yet. The random Teddy thing is also a bad move. Teddy is an iconic part of the Malifaux world, and to make it only available randomly will will more likely than not simply shut people down to the game, rather than make them frantically buy $32 boxes just to have a small chance of getting a single one. Even bigger miniature companies won't chance burning bridges with a marketing ploy like that. I like Puppet Wars, and I think it is a great addition to Wyrd's growing list of products. However, it is marketed horribly and will likely be DOA in many locations where people will flat out refuse the massive expense to get the Toy Box they want. Keep in mind that Malifaux drew many to the game because it was far more reasonable in terms of cost than many other games. The vast majority of Puppets War players will be those very same people. I honestly think that a much different method of marketing miniatures for Puppet Wars is not only necessary, but inevitable if the game is to gain any ground. I bought the multiplayer box and three boosters and was able to sell/trade everything I didn't want either locally or (mostly) right here in these forums. Wasn't that difficult. (Although I was bummed I didn't end up with a Teddy....) Edited October 9, 2011 by Maerius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntiZombie Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I bought the multiplayer box and three boosters and was able to sell/trade everything I didn't want either locally or (mostly) right here in these forums. Wasn't that difficult. (Although I was bummed I didn't end up with a Teddy....) agreed. Most people want multiples of things, I know i traded with marius and another person and now i have a very unusual collection of models (3 teddies, lady J, seamus, witchling stalker, deathrider, piglet, executioner, ronin and bad juju, viki) and havent acutally bought any puppet wars yet... If you go to bartertown.com you can usually find people willing to buy/trade. I know when i acutally end up buying the box i will be trading ( Curse you wyrd I said i wasnt going to buy it!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 The key difference with Puppet Wars is that all the puppets are actually playable/ hireable regradless of their Malifaux faction loyalty. You can actually play every puppet in the pawn or multiplayer boosters regardless of Puppet MAster. Additionally a lot of (out of suit) puppets are worth taking for their upgrades alone (throw a Punk Zombie "Made of Strong Stuff" upgrade on Lady Justice to increase her resislience or a Death Marshals "Cork Gun" upgrade on Seamus to give him a real gun). Also after having played more then 100 hours of Puppet Wars (since GenCon) I have found that "out of Suit puppets" are almost a must. Even though the Puppet Masters have means of dropping their prefered suit from the animation cost, "in suit puppets" frequently still require their prefered suit for their abilities. Having a few out of suit puppets allows you to maximize your hand/ deck, without diminishing one suit (and allowing your opponent to exploit this via dodges). However if they are just hellbent to only have the one puppet then follow the path laid out by Maerius. There is a market for unwanted puppets (especially the ones that you'll only get one of, even if you bought all the currently released Puppet Wars products). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) Totally agree with Omenbringer, mixing in the right out of suit models is really important, Nurses are one of the only models that can remove the Stuck Counters Kade gives out. Witchling Stalkers can remove exhaust from a model which is great against Seamus. Bad Juju mud upgrade can really buff your Mature Nephelim. December Acolytes can allow you to cycle cards to get Lady Justice the 2 rams she needs to get going. And lets not forget piglets and a Hog Whisperer in any crew that relies on high activation cost models. Edited October 9, 2011 by Ratty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frost Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I never said people would never want out-of-faction models, though it is clear many people will favor sticking with a majority in one faction. I'm just saying that packing totally unrelated minis in packs of 6 at $32 a pack is going to alienate people. I say this because it has already happened. In my own gaming group of about a dozen Malifaux players, every single person who was interested in playing the game was put off by the way the models were sold. You can tell me about all the hoops you managed to jump through to get the models you wanted, but in reality, the best way is just to package it more logically and save us all the headache. For example, packs of 3 faction models, while not as optimal for the end consumer as individual packaging, would at least allow people to get the models they want with less chance of having leftovers that the player must now either barter with or simply forget about in some bits box. I want this game to be successful, and I want people at my local store to play the game, but that is unlikely to happen if people feel like they are being forced into a "trading game". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Kind've agree with Frost. I see the whole trade this and that thing, but it's a negative in my book. I don't play card games because of that randomness thing and there are elements of that here. I also agree with Frost's comment of 'All the hoops you jumped through'...So I buy this thing for $X, don't get what I want, so I have to spend more $$ to get it....either through buying it outright from someone or trading for it and still having to go through the headache of shipping it. I had a finite amount of $$ when Gencon came around to order things and I was all set to spend some of it on P-Wars and exclude some of the other things I wanted. When the randomness aspect was revealed I quickly changed my mind and didn't get anything for P-Wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) Not an official wyrd representative here, but I have asked about this and I was informed that the puppets are packaged entirely by weight and sheer cost of metal to keep the cost of each box as low as possible, and all relatively equal. So, they could have been packaged by suit, or with fewer models, but ultimately the customer ends up paying more per model. No trade or "randomness" intended (beyond the single exception of Teddy) just keeping the cost of each unit as low as possible in the hopes that customers enjoy the lower prices. Edited October 9, 2011 by Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frost Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 A higher cost per model is almost implied any time the number of models per package is smaller. Of course, packaging more models together gives people more options at a slight discount, but it is not as viable when it is the only option. I am not saying that booster packs should not exist, but that more options should be available, even if the cost per model is a bit higher. The very same is true of the master/henchmen sets in Malifaux: the sets are for those who want most/all of the models that come with that set. If a player does not want most of the miniatures, he can get a blister of the particular model he wants. Additionally, large packs that emphasize a theme are more successful than ones that are seem completely random. The most cost-effective approach would seem to be packs of 3 related minis, which would afford a theme player a large benefit, yet not punish the player who only wants a few models from a different faction in his/her toy box. Still, the single-mini blister option should not be discounted altogether. I understand that Wyrd may want to test the waters with its current approach before it considers less efficient ways of packaging puppets, but in my opinion there needs to be a bit more diversity in options if a solid player base is going to take root. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I might be missing something here, but where are you guys getting the random thing from? Are you guys talking specifically about the teddy? If so, I can kind of see where you are coming from, but I have a feeling it is about the contents of the boosters themselves. Like every one else said, puppet wars is not a faction based game as much as malifaux, and it is okay for the boosters to come with an assortment of factions, since you are able to play a game with them. If you are playing puppet wars for puppet wars, I do not see why you are getting upset over this. If you are only looking for one model, I do not agree with why you are getting upset, since there are actual malifaux figures for everything released in puppet wars, and you would only be getting them for visual purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Thankfully Puppet Wars is not being marketed as a collectible mini's game (hopefully it will stay this way). I am sure that a fringe market will appear before to long for individual puppets (appealing to those that are interested) similar to what happpened with Monsterpocalypse and all the other collectible mini games. I do think that there may be some issues later on down the road with redundancy in the Pawn boosters, unless the boosters are very carefully managed. Lastly, there have been rumors of a possible teddy booster at some point down the road (already saving the ducats for four of these babies, so I will have 3 of each and the fourth booster to build a special Super Puppet Teddy model). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frost Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 "Seemingly" random, as in it is actually not, but might as well be. I have no problem with surplus puppets and having more options, but the overall cost of that approach is too steep. If it was cheap enough, I would get everything in the whole line. But it is not that cheap, nor should it be expected to be so cheap. That being the case, I think it should be easier to get the models a person really wants. If someone wants 2 more Rotten Belles to max out for their Seamus Toy Box, they should not have to pay $64 before tax to make that happen. Another way to get these models would remove a big barrier to entry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frost Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Thankfully Puppet Wars is not being marketed as a collectible mini's game (hopefully it will stay this way). You can market it as a cure for cancer; it will still be a collectible miniatures game. It isn't a collectible card game in the Magic sense, as everyone's cards are (hopefully) the same. It IS a board game, but only to the same extent that Battletech and Blood Bowl are board games, to which extent they are still collectible miniatures games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePandaDirector Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) Well this was a big issue before the release and I know that Eric and others did a ton of research. As first sentences go that makes me sound like a bit of a **** Before I go into anything else, let me point out the reason for the final decision to not do singles. And that is the LGS. They're already stocking Malifaux, blisters and boxes, and Puppet Wars practically doubles (or at least will eventually) the number of models they would have to stock. It is simply not possible, they'd either have the starter sets or decide to not sell it because they can't compete with online retailers selling singles. Wyrd wanted PW to be both retailer and consumer friendly. Now there was a lot of discussion on how these sets could be sold and how the unique puppets (Masters and Sidekicks) could be separated from the Pawns while keeping the no. of sets to a minimum and the cost (to produce and sell) low. In the end I think Wyrd made the best choice, at least for this initial release. Puppet Wars is not Malifaux. Simple. It is a board game where you have the freedom to have any combination of puppets (far far more variety than Malifaux), and as such have to accept that you will need to utilize the forum/ebay/other websites and avenues to get multiples of what you want when the price of getting the relevant booster is not economic. I got one of each set and although I'm amazed at how many lists I can make for each Master, I quickly decided what pawns I wanted multiples of. Now I never sell stuff online or trade or anything, wouldn't even do it with cards, but I am happy to trade for what I really want (though to be fair I want multiples of every puppet and I'm using the excess starter pawns for painting practice), such as an extra teddy. Ultimately you have to do two things, look at both the game and the logistics of selling it, then realize just how different it is from Malifaux. Sure there are some things that don't seem to work, but Wyrd are listening and I am sure you will see these same puppets, as well as new ones, released in a variety of ways (theme packs, etc). But for now, split the cost of the starter set, or even just proxy, and explore the game for what it is - PUPPET WARS! :combatpuppet Edited October 10, 2011 by ThePandaDirector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I see it as a board game. If you look at any of the Fantasy Flight games, they have the main game and boosters which give stuff for all sides in each. This is quite normal in the board game industry. I'm aiming to have a complete set so I can take it places and play it with my mates. They don't need to have any models, I can supply everything. The game is fast to learn, I've had people playing it happily after about 3 turns. This is generally how board gaming nights go, with one person bringing Munckin and all it's add ons, One person having everything for Dominion etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frost Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Thanks, ThePandaDirector. I understand the difficulties with logistics, space available to retailers for niche products, and trying to get an initial release that can generate genuine interest. Like you, I plan to hoard all of my puppets and would never trade a minion unless I had 4 or more of it. Not all players feel the same way, as I'm sure you know. A lot of players just want one small gang of minis to which they only ever make slight changes, and while it is not practical to make that available, the farther away the model is from the ideal, the larger the obstacle to drawing in new players. I want others to be interested in the game so that I have people I can play the game with, and that means that they have to be persuaded that it is a good value. I suppose I should just give it time for the range to flush out more and make it more practical to make more options for collecting puppets available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Definately agree with ThePandaDirector, though players may want single models Local Game Store owners definately do not. It is a nightmare managing multiple individual SKU's for each game you stock. As I said earlier I am sure someone will provide a secondary market for this sort of thing. Beat me to it Frost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePandaDirector Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 There are ways to play the game with your friends, it all depends whether you want to share the "hobby" of Puppet wars or the game. If you want to hoard everything you get then you will have way more than enough to play with friends. I mean with just one of each set I can easily play a four player Shoebox, maybe even wardrobe. The only issue is having enough boards and decks for multiple games at once, but then the board isn't hard to manufacture (considering no. of spaces is all that matters - compared to size of spaces - and you can even play on squares) It's just one of those things that takes time to drop roots and blossom, for your community and others, but there's no reason why you can't enjoy the game in the meantime, and share your treasures with your friends - if only for the length of a game =] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 The only issue is having enough boards and decks for multiple games at once, but then the board isn't hard to manufacture (considering no. of spaces is all that matters - compared to size of spaces - and you can even play on squares) The Buildings of Malifaux Terraclips pack is great for expanding your games in a fun and interesting way (especially when you want to play larger size multiplayer games). The only rule I had to kind of adapt on the fly was one for climbing stairs (since Puppet Legs are really tiny), making it require both a move and an action solved it nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePandaDirector Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Yeah, I've got both Streets and Buildings (I went rather crazy during Gencon) and have considered using it for Puppet Wars. Overall there are a lot of ways Puppet Wars can go, both officially and fan-made. I can't wait to see this game pan out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadilon Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I think a PW single, random puppet as I discussed here would be a great thing for the game. It would make a nice, cheap, impulse buy with only one more SKU to add to the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePandaDirector Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I can see random sets being used by LGS as a marketing ploy (similar to Kaine's idea in the other thread), but as an official marketing mechanic I'm not sure if it'd work. Sure it's nice to get a cheap fix, even if it's random, but at the end of the day you may only want a certain min and then you'd go to trading avenues. I think Teddy works as a rare, considering his rules as well. But random mini boosters would ultimately be upto the individual shops (which actually gives them a leg up on the online competition). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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