Kirai Questions (Tactics)

[Iamwyrd]

On strategy notes about Kirai, I agree that snowstorm looks much more viable now that they have 8 wounds. I'm not completely sold on the idea, but I'd give it a try.

As a side note on Kirai, I'm facing a Dreamer player soon for a league match vs. Kirai and the fates were not kind in handing out strategies. Dreamer got Deliver a message and Kirai got Line in the sand. Any thoughts on what to bring to such a pairing?

Hanged and Jack Daw. And just try to drop the dreamer as fast as possible. That's all I got.

[Zephir]

I would avoid Jack Daw, the Dreamer ignores his you can't cheat bubble.

Personally I find Kirai works better with a lot of models then a few elites.

I would try Some Gaki, Datsue-Ba, and the Insideous Madness. Use Swirling Spirts to get your best options into combat, and generally you should be able to take almost anything down.

Taking a Dead Rider (he's out now!) and making him a spirit with your lost love is also a REALLY powerful move. he might be enough on his own to whomp a few things.

Kirai is really strong and versatile, she can play in a number of different styles, Ratty likes the Hanged route. I prefer a swarm approach. Both are valid, just find what works for you.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Thanks guys. Don't own Jack Daw or I'd consider him. Yeah, I'm caught I just don't know which route to go. Basic crew will be:

Lost Love

Seishin (x 5)

Past that I don't know whether it would be better to go

Onryo (x2)

Gaki (x4)

or

Hanged (x2)

Datsue-Ba

If I swarm I'm pretty certain I can keep away from him all game, and maybe achieve a few of my schemes, but I won't be able to fight him off of the dynamite markers. If I take the hanged I might be able to eventually shift him, but I won't be able to make certain none of his minions can deliver the message to Kirai.

Thanks for the advice guys, gonna need to think on it some more.

[Da Git]

i'm a bit of a noob, but i like the alpha strike with kirai, using ikiryo & shikome to get stuck in & kill stuff which give you the initiative & forces him to react to you... with this shikome are also nible so can get to the objective quite quickly

Edited July 17, 2011 by Da O&F Git

[Kingdingaling]

Hey guys i've just starting a Kirai crew, this thread has been a great read so far. The way i'm looking at going for a 35ss list is:

Lost Love

Seishin (x5)

Gaki (x3)

Killjoy

(+2 ss)

I cant help but think if i can turn Killjoy into a spirit with LL he will be a filthy addition for people to try and contend with.

I'm prob going to go with that or the librarian list mainly using gaki sheshin swarm (Naturally with LL too)

[Iamwyrd]

I tried giving Bishop some love with kirai and turn him into a spirit. He didn't fair to well. Bishop would be a great model if He was cheaper ss wise or did more damage. Hell give him instinctual and he would be amazing.

I think its time to start a thread. Lol

[osoi]

I am actually starting to run Bishop a bit to tray and find his potential, I think its there but will certainly need a fair few games to form my opinion. I see him as a lock down model ... an dyes if he was instinctual he would be worth every cent of his ss cost

[Calmdown]

I tried giving Bishop some love with kirai and turn him into a spirit. He didn't fair to well. Bishop would be a great model if He was cheaper ss wise or did more damage. Hell give him instinctual and he would be amazing.

I think its time to start a thread. Lol

Bishop is a weak model. So is Killjoy (to the guy who mentioned him earlier).

If you want to swirl around big stuff that isnt necessarily a spirit to start, try Dead Rider or Rogue Necromancy. RN in particular is basically guaranteed to tear multiple enemies to bits, the only reason he isnt being raved about is because his model isnt out yet so not many people are playing him.

You can also give Snow Storm a whirl (no pun intended) but he's a bit expensive for what he does even for Rasputina, so he's even more expensive for what he does for Kirai. He does look awesome though.

[Ratty]

Bishop is a weak model. So is Killjoy (to the guy who mentioned him earlier).

If you want to swirl around big stuff that isnt necessarily a spirit to start, try Dead Rider or Rogue Necromancy. RN in particular is basically guaranteed to tear multiple enemies to bits, the only reason he isnt being raved about is because his model isnt out yet so not many people are playing him.

You can also give Snow Storm a whirl (no pun intended) but he's a bit expensive for what he does even for Rasputina, so he's even more expensive for what he does for Kirai. He does look awesome though.

I agree for big stuff the Dead Rider and the Rogue Necromancy are really good choice... I think in some ways Snow Storm has more synergy with Kirai than Rasputina. OK some of his abilities don't work as well, as you don't have Ice Gamin or models with Frozen heart (though you can give one model it.) However when the entirety of your crew can run through walls, Ice Walls is even better than with Rasputina, and the fact you can Heal it and Swirl it is really fun.

[Calmdown]

I agree for big stuff the Dead Rider and the Rogue Necromancy are really good choice... I think in some ways Snow Storm has more synergy with Kirai than Rasputina. OK some of his abilities don't work as well, as you don't have Ice Gamin or models with Frozen heart (though you can give one model it.) However when the entirety of your crew can run through walls, Ice Walls is even better than with Rasputina, and the fact you can Heal it and Swirl it is really fun.

He still suffers from being an 11 point model with 2 action points and a bad damage line (3/3/6 is pretty piss poor for 11 points and his ranged spell isn't any better). He's also incredibly fragile against any list that melees and ignores all of his cool defensive stuff (ie, most good ones) and though I often go on about how many times my Shikome survive on 1 wound, I wouldn't like to be relying on that with an 11 point model.

If playing "true-Malifaux" and choosing your list from your whole lineup, he's definitely cool. And I do have him in my case now (more for Raspy than Kirai - although he suffers just as many, although different, issues with Raspy). I just don't think I'll be running him very often. It's a shame they didn't make him a beast, then I would have been all over it

[Cornelious1424]

I didn't want to make a new thread for this question, so I figured I'd hijack somewhat lol. The Onryo, Shikome, Ikiryo, Datsue-ba all have the ability to attack either Wp or Df with melee strikes. If they chose to attack Wp, does this count as a Wp duel? Ratty, I saw you mention taking the Insidious Madness, and their ability to make on Wp duels becomes disgusting (for this crew as well) if this is the case. I assume it is, but I figured I'd ask before I try this at my LGS. Thanks in advance!

Edited July 29, 2011 by Cornelious1424
wrong word

[Ratty]

I didn't want to make a new thread for this question, so I figured I'd hijack somewhat lol. The Onryo, Shikome, Ikiryo, Datsue-ba all have the ability to attack either Wp or Df with melee strikes. If they chose to attack Wp, does this count as a Wp duel? Ratty, I saw you mention taking the Insidious Madness, and their ability to make on Wp duels becomes disgusting (for this crew as well) if this is the case. I assume it is, but I figured I'd ask before I try this at my LGS. Thanks in advance!

Yep it's Wp duel for the defender.

[Cornelious1424]

Awesome!! Thanks Ratty.

[Baneon]

Yep it's Wp duel for the defender.

Doesn't it effect....Nevermind DUUUUU it targets defenders. Your the attacker and wouldn't get a negative flip. Brains not working yet.

[BloodDragonCC]

Ok so my question is this I am thinking of running Kirai in an upcoming 35ss tourny however we have to create a 55ss pool of mini's before hand and I can only choose models from that pool (summoned models don't count). so I was looking for opinions on what to add to my pool.

[Calmdown]

Ok so my question is this I am thinking of running Kirai in an upcoming 35ss tourny however we have to create a 55ss pool of mini's before hand and I can only choose models from that pool (summoned models don't count). so I was looking for opinions on what to add to my pool.

My 55ss Kirai all-comers list is:

5x Seishin

Lost Love

2x Shikome

Insidious Madness

4x Night Terror

Jack Daw

(53)

My normal all-comers list would be:

5x Seishin

Lost Love

2x Shikome

Madness

Night Terror

Jack Daw would come out to play in place of a Shikome + Seishin/Terror if I need to Assassinate a master, for certain schemes (eg Treasure Hunt), or against lists who simply can't deal with him.

Against people against whom 2x Shikome is a bad idea (either because you have no good targets or because you may want to summon one early - such as Gremlins in the former case, Dreamer in the latter) I'd drop a Shikome for more Night Terrors.

Against people who are going to come close to out-activating you, you can also drop a Shikome for more Night Terrors. More activations = winning Kirai, and again you can always summon that second Shikome.

Gaki are a valid option (though not as good as NTs imho), as is a lone Onryo (good from the start against shooty lists and particularly Gremlins). Snow Storm would also be pretty excellent against shooty lists though Kirai demolishes them anyway.

Hope that gave you some ideas, GL!

[BloodDragonCC]

Thanks for that Calmdown I had my first ever game with Kirai today 35ss against Lady J Won it quite decisively she had Treasure Hunt and I had Reconn started with

LL (2)

Seishin x5 (10)

Librarian (9)

Shikome (8)

Night Terror x2 (6)

I Must admit I made a few mistakes but i found she can be pretty forgiving so I was ok in the end.

[NeverBro]

I have recently asked about playing misaki with kirai and turning her into a spirit. At first I just liked the theme of it but when I looked into it I realized that a model that can walk twice at 5 and do a 0 for a melee range of 6 and THEN do a melee expert would actually have some good applications in-game. especially considering you could walk do an attack and then zip back through a wall afterwards.

[Dirty Moses]

I think that the shikome is best when summoned because she can never be slowed so why no summon here and save the 8 points

[Calmdown]

I think that the shikome is best when summoned because she can never be slowed so why no summon here and save the 8 points

1ap, an 11 of crows, 2 spirits and 3 wounds.

[Da Git]

1ap, an 11 of crows, 2 spirits and 3 wounds.

So worth it though... i have stopped including shikome in my starter lists, one of the ways my opponents have dealt with them in the past is to charge them with something non-prey... now i just out-activate, summon close, then tear apart in a single activately & still have AP to hide!!

as for the 11crows, i generally don't worry about the suit for the trigger (i don't want to lose the extra wd...) and this is also the one i use a SS for if i don't flip high enough or can't cheat...

i also prefer to save my high crows for maul...

[Calmdown]

So worth it though... i have stopped including shikome in my starter lists, one of the ways my opponents have dealt with them in the past is to charge them with something non-prey... now i just out-activate, summon close, then tear apart in a single activately & still have AP to hide!!

I include Shikome in my starter lists AND summon them. Normally a Shikome can take a bit of return fire after killing its prey, then when it's on low wounds you sac it as one of the sacs to make a new Shikome with prey and go to town all over gain.

Not always, but often. In any case I dont find that leaving Shikome out of my starter lists is a benefit. I do drop to 1 sometimes but never to 0.

[Da Git]

so what do you use kirai to summon? ikiryo? i have found them to be rather disappointing...

also what do people use datsue-ba for? i know they have good utility, but i am seriously considering ditching for either librarian or just more small stuff like gaki or night terrors...

i am finding that because they are so all-round they don't actually archieve their potential & get killed...

[Fetid Strumpet]

I personally am glad for the people that use two Shikome and look at them as 100% necessary or de rigueur for any Kirai list. I personally don't agree with this statement however. I think that having access to at least 1 Shikome is important, two is certainly useful, but I've never, in any game I've played, felt the need to have more than one Shikome. Wether to start with it or not really depends on which strategy and schemes are in effect for the game, however. I'm not saying that the people who advocate using two are wrong, I just think you need to take their insistence that you NEED two with a grain of salt.

For myself I find the Ikiryo a very important model, and although when I first started using Kirai I was a little less than impressed by what the Ikiryo could do, I've since come to love her. The biggest and most important thing that I began doing that improved the Ikryo's performance was to stop always throwing her up against the toughest thing in my opponent's crew. My prime targets for the Ikiryo are often models in the 4SS and under range. Good solid models that are useful for the opponent, but that Ikiryo can kill in one activation, or possibly with an additional activation next turn if I win initiative. If at all possible I want the targeted model to die immediately so that Kirai can get the Healing flip the Ikiryo provides.

[demkoenig]

Here is Kirai tactic I was thinking about:

Nurse gives Kirai Reactivate.

Gaki hits Desperate Merc for 2 damage and Canine Remains for 2 damage.

Kirai activates and summons 2 Shikomes and sacrifices 4 Seishin. She uses her (0)'s for whatever makes sense at the time.

Datsue Ba activates and Weigh of Sins the Desperate Merc. DM dies and healing flips Kirai (hopefully for 2 wounds). Make one Gaki and gain one Seishin back. Datsue Ba Weigh of Sins the Canine Remains and makes another Gaki and another Seishin.

If Kirai healed 2 wounds, then Kirai activates and summons Ikiryo. If Kirai didn't heal 2 wounds, then Lost Love heals her or she does a healing flip so she gets the 4 wounds to summon Ikiryo.

Then Kirai does as much other summoning as she can. (If you don't want Ikiryo yet, then summon two Onryo). Or use her second activation for insane movement shenanigans.

Then sacrifice Kirai (End close phase), but instead, sacrifice the Lost Love.

Kirai is permanently a spirit by Turn 2, and you gained 2 Shikome and 2 Onryo (or 1 Ikiryo) (26 soulstones) by Turn 1 and launched them probably as far as 24" outside of your deployment zone, all for the cost of 2 Seishin, 1 Desperate Merc, and 1 Canine Remains (8 soulstone).