Hamelin is better than we think

[Math Mathonwy]

If it's a friendly game and your opponent is a d*ck, walk away. On the other hand, if you're playing in the Superbowl you should leave the reserves on the bench and bring your A Game - and if that isn't good enough you don't complain about how unfair it was that the other team had better players.

I'm not sure that there is an event comparable to super bowl in miniatures gaming. Every tournament I've been to, I've been there to have fun first and foremost with winning a long, long second. More so the older I get. And now I don't mean that playing competetively isn't fun, I mean that thinking of tournaments with a super bowl mentality (with millions of dollars at stake) isn't going to lead anywhere healthy.

I also think that every Master should be at least in the same ballpark power-wise. Not every crew, mind, but a well constructed crew that complements the chosen Master should always have a place at tournaments. Helldorado, for example, manages this, so I can't see why it would be impossible for Malifaux.

[magicpockets]

I'm not sure that there is an event comparable to super bowl in miniatures gaming. Every tournament I've been to, I've been there to have fun first and foremost with winning a long, long second. More so the older I get. And now I don't mean that playing competetively isn't fun, I mean that thinking of tournaments with a super bowl mentality (with millions of dollars at stake) isn't going to lead anywhere healthy.

I absolutely agree that not every player will see a tourny as the Superbowl, but the "fun" players shouldn't hold it against the players who do. I'm a very competitive player (hands up wo's surprised - no-one? ) and certain tournaments are my chance to be hyper-competitive. At a club level I'm more than happy to play Zoraida with a bunch of gremlins for fun, but in tourny's my point is you should expect a certain level of "power-play" and you make a decision whether to join in or let it pass you by (in reality, a swiss tourny should naturally split so the powerplayers end up playing each other and the more casual gamers end up playing each other by round 2/3)

I also think that every Master should be at least in the same ballpark power-wise. Not every crew, mind, but a well constructed crew that complements the chosen Master should always have a place at tournaments. Helldorado, for example, manages this, so I can't see why it would be impossible for Malifaux.

I can't speak about Helldorado personally so will naturally defer to your experience - however is Helldorado as complex as Malifaux with so many special characters interacting? If it is, hats off to them, but if not I'm guessing that's where the inevitable imbalance is going to lie. Either way, do you think Wyrd could "balance out" Malifaux now like you say or is it too late?

[Math Mathonwy]

I absolutely agree that not every player will see a tourny as the Superbowl, but the "fun" players shouldn't hold it against the players who do. I'm a very competitive player (hands up wo's surprised - no-one? ) and certain tournaments are my chance to be hyper-competitive. At a club level I'm more than happy to play Zoraida with a bunch of gremlins for fun, but in tourny's my point is you should expect a certain level of "power-play" and you make a decision whether to join in or let it pass you by (in reality, a swiss tourny should naturally split so the powerplayers end up playing each other and the more casual gamers end up playing each other by round 2/3)

I consider myself rather a good player with a huge number of tournament wins under my belt from different game systems. In fact, the older I get, the more I kinda feel that I've won enough and can sorta lay back and enjoy. Still, I occasionally like to bring my A-game and see if I've still got it, you know. But my attitude isn't the same as it would be were playing in some huge poker finals or Superbowl or whatever. Superbowl is professional, minis games are a hobby is what I'm trying to say.

I can't speak about Helldorado personally so will naturally defer to your experience - however is Helldorado as complex as Malifaux with so many special characters interacting? If it is, hats off to them, but if not I'm guessing that's where the inevitable imbalance is going to lie. Either way, do you think Wyrd could "balance out" Malifaux now like you say or is it too late?

It's not as complex but offers basically just as much tactics-wise (though in a different way). Not quite as comboriffic as Malifaux, though there are certainly interesting combos to be had. And it isn't perfectly balanced (no minis game is), just that there are no push-overs among the Officers (Master-equivalents).

[Necromorph]

I don't think that they can balance it. They can balance it so that each faction has an equal chance to win, but as is the current state of Arcanists...only 1 master from each faction will become the Power Master. Granted these balances will shift as new books are released but anything they would try to do to balance some older masters would just make others broken.

[Math Mathonwy]

I don't think that they can balance it. They can balance it so that each faction has an equal chance to win, but as is the current state of Arcanists...only 1 master from each faction will become the Power Master. Granted these balances will shift as new books are released but anything they would try to do to balance some older masters would just make others broken.

Eh, as a silly simple fix, you could just, say, add to the basic stats of Rasputina until she is competitive. Give her Ca 12 and she starts looking a whole lot less third-tier! OK, not a serious suggestion, naturally, but I refuse to believe that some semblance of balance is impossible to achieve.

[Omenbringer]

DISCLAIMER: I know the above sounds a bit ranty, but it's not meant to - I just get irritated by people who complain about losing (especially in a tournament setting) because they make bad crew decisions or want to hide their own lack of skill behind "how unbalanced their/their opponent's crew is".

Just remember that not everyone that is posting in this thread is in these categories ("newb" or "tourney stupid"). Experienced players are also saying that Hamelin is too strong for the game.

Additionally from your own tourney post, several of your opponents made great tourney crew choices (strong masters and purpose built to counter your Hamelin list) and couldn't produce the win.

There are a few minor tweeks that would tone him down enough while still allowing him to keep the majority of his theme.

[magicpockets]

Just remember that not everyone that is posting in this thread is in these categories ("newb" or "tourney stupid"). Experienced players are also saying that Hamelin is too strong for the game.

I hear that, but now Hamelin is getting played there is more and more noise that's he's no worse than certain other Masters (that was why this thread was started). Personally he'd be my third tourny choice master at the minute fi I was going just for the win.

Additionally from your own tourney post, several of your opponents made great tourney crew choices (strong masters and purpose built to counter your Hamelin list) and couldn't produce the win.

I can't answer that without sounding like an ass, but I didn't only win because I was playing Hamelin. I'd like to think there was a little element of skill in there too

There are a few minor tweeks that would tone him down enough while still allowing him to keep the majority of his theme.

Throw them out here, chances are they'll never get incorporated but I'd be interested to hear your ideas.

[Drake]

And yeah you did still win mate, wouldnt take that away, but then I wasnt trying too hard to win , just to see if I could compete for the core strategy whilst maintaining minimaldamage...and you did kill your model to prevent me getting my protege for the draw. Neither of us got our schemes which was fair lol.

Although you having Creepy Structure and us playing Shared Reconoitor may have given you an advantage!! hehehe

[Omenbringer]

I hear that, but now Hamelin is getting played there is more and more noise that's he's no worse than certain other Masters (that was why this thread was started). Personally he'd be my third tourny choice master at the minute fi I was going just for the win.

Am interested to hear who your 1st and 2nd choices would be.

I can't answer that without sounding like an ass, but I didn't only win because I was playing Hamelin. I'd like to think there was a little element of skill in there too

Definately not trying to take anything away from your tourney win. I do find it odd however that your defense of Hamelin thus far has really only shown that he is stronger then he should be.

Throw them out here, chances are they'll never get incorporated but I'd be interested to hear your ideas.

I think you'd be surprised at how receptive the Wyrd crew can be to recomendations for model improvements. A few of the tweeks that I would make to tone Hamelin down a bit (not necessarily all of these mind you and not necessarily in order):

1. Give Bully a Wp 12 resist with a flip (Would require a change to Merc Hamelin as well since it is the same named ability).
   
2. Make Lure Malifaux Citizen a spell with a CC of 17 :crows instead of automatic success.
   
3. The Insignificant characteristic gained from Understand the Soulless expires if Hamelin is not in play during the Draw Phase (i.e. he is really dead, not almost dead).
   
4. Give Understand the Soulless the icon.
   
5. Understand the Soulless only affects Non-Masters.
   
6. Restrict his spells and abilities to affecting only models that are considered "Living".
   
7. Limit the affects generated from Sacing his models to fuel his abilities.
   

[Necromorph]

Eek...now, I know how much of a pain in the ass Hamelin can be, but with those changes I think he would be a pretty weak Master. Honestly, Wyrd made a pretty wierd (see what I did there) Master. He has certain core mechanics that allow him to stay alive...he really is quite squishy if things get the chance to beat on him. His crew is also not a crew with high levels of direct damage...and his offensive capabilites due to Understand the Soulless are really his best defense. Sure there can be a lot of stolen, but they really are not that hard to kill, and their "debuffs" for being killed are easy to stomach for an opponent if it means Hamelin is dead.

I'm sure there will be changes to Hamelin, but if you start messing with his core mechanics, he falls apart. Therein lies the problem, he is a difficult Master to change because everything he does relies on a few core things, and changing those will break the way he works in general.

I don't know how many of you play FPS(first person shooter) video games, but an issue like this came up in Call of Duty:Black Ops. The first couple months the game was out, people on the forums were bitching to no end about the AK-74u ( a weapon in the game). Even though it was a sub-machine gun, they complained that not only was it better than all of the other SMG's but it was also better than the Assault Rifles. So...the developers listened to all of the whiners and they cuddled the gun (it's still not bad, but it's definitely worse). An unforeseen consequence, however, was that this Assault Rifle called the FAMAS became broken because the 74u (it's biggest counter) was now cuddled, and now you see 60-70% of people in the games running around with FAMAS' reaming everyone.

The lesson here is if they start just Cuddling Masters, then there can be unforeseen balancing issues that will cause another cycle of "X master is broken now, wtf Wyrd!"

[Odin1981]

I could agree with the understand spell being like obey in that it was non-master only and probably some type of rare# limit on stolen however until we see how many factions get remove effect type abilities from book 3 minions anything further would probably be way to overbearing on hamelin at this point in time.

However the biggest problem this would cause is every top tournament master would all need to be looked at and it would all have to be slight dial downs (ala leveticus vs2 and vs3) it couldn't be done say like gw pendulum smashing way "each edition" and thats saying that wyrd has a "new edition" theoriticaly with every new big book that comes out (annnualy up to this point in time).

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree that willy nilly Cuddling should be avoided, but Hamelin has elements to his make-up that show case bad design in my opinion. The chief issue I have with him is Bully. Interactive games like Malifaux break down, in my opinion, when blanket abilities remove all chance of an opponent being able to interact. The blanket ban on all Ht1 and insignificant models being unable to target Hamelin breaks the game.

A better option would have been to to cause Ht1 or insignificant models to have to discard a control card, or win a WP->WP duel, or win a WP->14 duel to target him. Any ONE of those or something similar would make playing against Hamelin a more enjoyable experience. Just something that would allow for interaction, something that gives the opponent a chance through luck, or skillful play to still allow models to do what they are supposed to.

As confusing as the Dreamer's shadowy form is, it's an example of far better defensive design than Bully because it can be circumvented by the models in play fulfilling what they were bought for. Kill the nightmares around the dreamer and he becomes targetable. Carefully position your model so that it is in melee with the Dreamer and not his bodyguard and splat. But a blanket "You're model can't do anything to get around this, Nah nah nah!" is not fun to even see across the table from you.

This strangling of options is why games like D&D had to redesign how things like Fear worked because, again, it is not fun to be told "It's your turn but because you're affected by Fear you can't do anything. Tough luck".

That is why I have issues with masters like Hamelin.

[Math Mathonwy]

Eek...now, I know how much of a pain in the ass Hamelin can be, but with those changes I think he would be a pretty weak Master.

You did notice Omenbringer saying "not necessarily all of these", right? So you are honestly of the opinion that implementing any of those suggestions makes Hamelin a third tier Master?

[Odin1981]

I agree that willy nilly Cuddling should be avoided, but Hamelin has elements to his make-up that show case bad design in my opinion. The chief issue I have with him is Bully. Interactive games like Malifaux break down, in my opinion, when blanket abilities remove all chance of an opponent being able to interact. The blanket ban on all Ht1 and insignificant models being unable to target Hamelin breaks the game.

A better option would have been to to cause Ht1 or insignificant models to have to discard a control card, or win a WP->WP duel, or win a WP->14 duel to target him. Any ONE of those or something similar would make playing against Hamelin a more enjoyable experience. Just something that would allow for interaction, something that gives the opponent a chance through luck, or skillful play to still allow models to do what they are supposed to.

As confusing as the Dreamer's shadowy form is, it's an example of far better defensive design than Bully because it can be circumvented by the models in play fulfilling what they were bought for. Kill the nightmares around the dreamer and he becomes targetable. Carefully position your model so that it is in melee with the Dreamer and not his bodyguard and splat. But a blanket "You're model can't do anything to get around this, Nah nah nah!" is not fun to even see across the table from you.

This strangling of options is why games like D&D had to redesign how things like Fear worked because, again, it is not fun to be told "It's your turn but because you're affected by Fear you can't do anything. Tough luck".

That is why I have issues with masters like Hamelin.

The only problem with this line of thought however is that the game breaks down into rock, paper, scissor style matchups. While I agree that someone with only say a gremlin crew is screwed against Hamelin.

If said player only seeked out people that have no counters to his/her master to play the community as a whole should flat out shun said player.

Now I understand at tournament settings this can't be avoided possibly. However unless said event was "newcomer friendly" (why any vet would run a steamroll crew is beyond me), however in a competitive event that in a way is kind off "the breaks".

Also the main difficulty with this game system more so than others to my knowledge with 25 or so possible masters (not even attempting to figure out how many different combinations various ways of running crews with each master) there is always gonna be a top 5 as well as a bottom 5. So some will be harder than others but some will be lacking as well.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I totally agree that there are always going to be strong and weak designs within a system that offers different options for each player. This is something that cannot be avoided, the only thing that can be done is to try to limit the distance between the two during the design and play testing process.

I disagree however with the sentiment that by allowing Hamelin's Bully to have an escape clause built into it in some way somehow makes the game into a paper, rock, scissors game. If anything it makes it less of one. As it stands now if you send Hamelin up against a gremlin crew it is pretty much game over for the Gremlins. Allowing the Gremlins to have some kind of chance to target Hamelin lessens the overall "Too bad you chose the wrong crew, you lose" that exists currently. It still isn't going to be an easy match up for the Gremlins, but here's the reason it's better... the Gremlins actually have a chance for their models to do something. That is my entire point. Abilities that prevent you from doing things with no chance to get around them are bad design.

I am not advocating for Hamelin to be reduced in power so that he drops a tier, or because I'm bitter because I always lose to him. In full disclosure no one in my area plays Hamelin. What I'm arguing against is a design philosophy that closes down options. Here are ways for example that Bully could have been better implemented to still give the flavor of the intention behind the design, but still give the opposing crew options:

Bully becomes

1) a 0 action

2) becomes a 6-inch Aura

3) Requires the opponent to play a fate card to target

4) Requires a WP->WP duel

5) Requires a WP -> 14 Duel

6) Hamelin can cancel an action targeting him by Sacrificing a friendly Ht1 model within 6" of him. No models may be summoned, placed, replaced, or created from this Sacrifice and no counters are gained.

7)Hamelin may redirect all attacks, abilities, or effects which target him to a friendly The Stolen within 6".

Any One of these gives options back to the opponent, but still makes Hamelin very tricky to take down. I am not against strong masters, their creation is inevitable in a system where opponents have different options to choose from. I am against design which removes interaction between the players. Unilaterally removing the ability of models to target another model, with no way to get around it, is bad design.

For examples of better defensive design in Masters we can look at Colette, Kirai, Pandora, and the Dreamer.

For the purposes of this post I'll just look at Colette, one of the most frustrating Masters to put down.

Colette: Low wound count, but has a great defensive trigger, Slow to Die, the Ability to use Soulstones, and a great 'Get Out of Death Free' Ability.

Her defenses are frustrating but not insurmountable. She has low wounds so she can't take any kind of pounding. With some models 1 lucky hit will take her out. If you fail to kill her in one shot and she has the right card (very likely) she will switch places with another showgirl, which is still a target which can be attacked if you have actions left. If you kill her she can use a soulstone to heal, which *could* kill her if she flips the black Joker (not likely), but it's still a resource you are draining and forcing her player to aggressively manage. If she uses Death Defying she will swap with another showgirl in range and heal wounds = the switched showgirl. The Showgirl then dies. So even with one of the most annoyingly frustrating Masters in the game to kill, I'd still rather face her than Hamelin.

All of her abilities encourage interaction between the players. The player thinks "I want to kill Colette, how do I do this? Well first thing is I'll take a swip whenever it's offered to try to whittle her down, and or force the use of a soulstone for her to heal. Next I'd better make sure that if she's ever positioned with only 1 show girl in her defensive ranges I'll kill that showgirl first, or force them to reposition themselves so they are out of range. Oh drat she got away, I'll finish off this showgirl then so there is at least one less model on the table she can escape to..." and so on.

I apologize for the mini rant... I guess what I'm saying in summery is that interaction = fun. Strangled options = not fun.

[Drake]

I have to agree that making the Bully ability either an action to use when activating, or making it a permanent Aura or making it a Wp duel to target him, would make it still challenging to target him but atleast give you an option to do so

If one of the above were to happen, I wouldnt argue too hard for Masters to be immune to being made insignificant, but if Bully wasnt modified in anyway, then Masters should not be targettable by any of Hamelin's Insignificant causing effects.

All well and good if your Guild, but for other's it cuddles your master too much, esp if he gets the -2wp on you first, then you are at a disadvantage to resist being made insignificant at which point it's currently game over for your master.

Not like he cant just beat u to a pulp in melee anyway with 1 card cheatable damage flip 0/3/9!!

[magicpockets]

Am interested to hear who your 1st and 2nd choices would be.

Pandora then Zoraida

Give Bully a Wp 12 resist with a flip (Would require a change to Merc Hamelin as well since it is the same named ability).

Not sure I agree as core fluff-wise too. However I think it could follow the same limitations as his hiring ability - i.e. doesn't affect gremlins or constructs

Make Lure Malifaux Citizen a spell with a CC of 17 :crows instead of automatic success.

There's something in this, especially as he only needs one on the board now. You could understand it was important when he needed to keep them within 3", but I agree in principle - although not sure how you've worked out the casting cost (is it the same as a Hollow Waif or something? That's a bad comparison if it is) And don't forget it needs to bear in mind his limited card mechanic for cheating - i.e. it can't be too hard to do

The Insignificant characteristic gained from Understand the Soulless expires if Hamelin is not in play during the Draw Phase (i.e. he is really dead, not almost dead).

Hamelin or Nix would be fairer alongside his own model regaining insignificant. This could be a nice idea.

Give Understand the Soulless the icon.

Disagree with this. He has to sac a model to do it, it's a big enough bind as it is (irrespective of "but he has sooooo many models")

Understand the Soulless only affects Non-Masters.

Disagree, you have a better chance at resisting it with soulstones. Should his 9wd beat stick only affect non-masters too?

Restrict his spells and abilities to affecting only models that are considered "Living".

Absolutely disagree, this would be going too far imo.

Limit the affects generated from Sacing his models to fuel his abilities.

Don't understand - you mean the -2wp etc? You seem to be missing HE HAS TO SAC A MODEL - that's a pretty high price you know

I could agree with the understand spell being like obey in that it was non-master only

Disagree, but it could do with the same rules re sacrificing models as Obey

and thats saying that wyrd has a "new edition" theoriticaly with every new big book that comes out (annnualy up to this point in time).

I'd love a new edition which rebalanced all of the crews. Nothing major, just minor tweaks to bring them more in line with each other.

A better option would have been to to cause Ht1 or insignificant models to have to discard a control card, or win a WP->WP duel, or win a WP->14 duel to target him. Any ONE of those or something similar would make playing against Hamelin a more enjoyable experience.

This would be fairer and would play more like Pandora's mechanic (which is tough enough anyway).

As it stands now if you send Hamelin up against a gremlin crew it is pretty much game over for the Gremlins.

I really think this needs fixing as a matter of priority for Wyrd, even (like I said above) making bully not affect constructs or gremlins as in his hiring ability. "Hamelin can't hire Gremlins because they don't fear him? Okay, well they don't get affected by bully either."

Bully becomes

1) a 0 action

2) becomes a 6-inch Aura

3) Requires the opponent to play a fate card to target

4) Requires a WP->WP duel

5) Requires a WP -> 14 Duel

6) Hamelin can cancel an action targeting him by Sacrificing a friendly Ht1 model within 6" of him. No models may be summoned, placed, replaced, or created from this Sacrifice and no counters are gained.

7)Hamelin may redirect all attacks, abilities, or effects which target him to a friendly The Stolen within 6".

4 or 5 for me on this. The rest don't seem natural game/fluff wise - but having the WIll Power to overcome bully and target him seems like a fluff-sensible mechanic.

-----

I'll see if someone at the club wants to play Hamelin with a WP->WP duel tonight to see how it goes and report back

Edited June 13, 2011 by magicpockets

[Calmdown]

I'm a relatively inexperienced Malifaux player, but a pretty experienced tournament player; so I'm getting in to the Malifaux tourney scene at the moment but my experience is limited.

Yet this is an argument as old as wargaming; "why cant everything be balanced?". The simple fact is in any game there will always be a top x% and a bottom x% (or a top tier, a mid tier, and a bottom tier as you like it) and if you're a serious tournament player, you're going to play those lists if you're intending to play at maximum efficiency. However it does seem that the 'strong' masters in Malifaux pretty much auto-beat the rest of the masters in Malifaux assuming that there isn't a large skill differential; and it seems that Hamelin is the top dog because his various mechanics do seem a little more broken than those of the other top masters.

At the moment, if I go to a tournament running Kirai (or Hamelin, if I pick him up) I'd fully expect to be losing to the experienced players running similar lists, and potentially losing to experienced players running lesser lists; and, I would assume, a lot of people are in a similar situation. The difference is that most people don't realise they're in this situation and when they lose to one of these power lists, cry cuddle before analysing their own mistakes. I'm sure that there are mediocre Hamelin players around right now who would cane me no matter what I run, but I'm sure that in a month or two from now I'd be doing the same back to them with a lesser list.

What I'm getting at is, yes Hamelin is clearly a top master and yes there are clearly horrible imbalances in this game (honestly - Malifaux as a whole is not well balanced or well constructed to be a tournament game in its current state), but never forget that a lot of people beating you with said masters are probably doing so because they are better/more experienced as well.

Not that that's an excuse for Wyrd to use errata to bring more balance, of course

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yeah, like I said I 100% agree that there will always be top tier masters, it can't be avoided in these design situations. I mean I personally believe that over all the Neverborn masters as a whole are all a bit above the power curve, but in general I don't really call for their mechanics to change. I might grumble about them from time to time, but aside from Pandora, (who has other design issues I take issue with), I really don't have problems with them.

My entire point was that the Bully mechanic as it currently stands is bad design because it strangles interaction. There is no way around it, and it shuts down your models so that can't do something really important. That, while understandable how it got in, is just plain bad design because it is not fun in anyway to play against.

Maybe it's because I work in Theatre that I really see and think this issue is important. When you are speaking with an artistic collaborator who is asking a question, responding by saying:

"Yes, but..." is many times better than saying,

"No."

Which is why I made my list of suggestions, everyone of which I can argue a fluff reason behind. Personally, I don't really care if Hamelin is the strongest master in the game, as long as playing against him is fun. The design behind Bully makes him unfun to play against.

[Drake]

This game is about having fun. It is the biggest appeal to me that this game is fun. If a mechanic makes something not fun at all, maybe the consideration should be, not about balancing (as we all know this is not possible to perfectly balance things), but to make that particular thing fun again.

I dont personally have a huge issue with hamelin as he stands, although his Bully is very frustrating to play against, but I have a very mobile and hard to deal with crew myself. Against crews who's dynamic is very straight forward and more static, I can see how the fun can be sapped out of the game for them.

This game should put fun first and foremost imho. If Bully is honestly an all round agreed mechanic that noone, even Hamelin Players, enjoys playing, them maybe an adjustment is called for, in line with one of the examples suggested (Wp duels to target him being my preferred option)

I also agree with magic that, in line with the fluff, Constructs and Gremlins should not suffer the Bully effect, or maybe an alternative approach is to give them a positive flip for the Wp duel if thats the way it goes)...

[ZiggyQubert]

I would agree that Hamelin is a very good master, however, a few points to make that help when playing against him, the crew selection and scheme selection that you take are excedingly important, hamelins powers are for the most part geared twords controling the objectives etc so the folowing are crazy important -

1 - Inteligent scheme selection can go a long way to helping, if you are playing against him take schemes that insignificant models can accomplish (kill protogay etc..), if you are neverborn, take the kidnap scheme for example (it's basicly an auto 2 points)

2 - For casual games use the expanded encounter chart, it has more stratagies that insignificent moidels can acomplish

3 - crew selection, remember that you could be playing Hamelin, take models that support that, if you are a gremlin player use a mosquito heavy build (they can explode and do damage without targeting), take models that have terifying (rats and catchers hate that)

In terms of reducing hamelins power, I feal that making changes to his insignificant machanic is too likely to drasticly change him, what he needs is something that will tone him down a little. The suggestions I would put forward are -

1 - Change his 'can only target hamelin spell' to a untill end of turn or requires a WP->WP duel to target another model, basicly to prevent a model from being rendered mostly useless

2 - one of the major things that makes hamelin great is that he not only can control objective completion (via insignificant) but he also has has great combat potiental in the rats (they are insainly good in a pack) I would say remove instinctuial from them, preventing them from moving and attacking with a +, not a massive change I realize but enough to limit Hamelins overall combat potiential

3 - Change his resurectin mechanic back twords its origional wording (obiviously without the infinite combo) posibly by making summon a stolen a once per crew per activation spell. This prevents the hiding a stolen in back to save hamelin, and forces them to stay close to Hamelin and thus making them more vulnerable

Note in the interest of full disclosure I should say that I do play Hamelin

[magicpockets]

1 - Inteligent scheme selection can go a long way to helping, if you are playing against him take schemes that insignificant models can accomplish (kill protogay etc..), if you are neverborn, take the kidnap scheme for example (it's basicly an auto 2 points)

If you announce these I will sac/kill and resummon the models, Cuddling your schemes

1 - Change his 'can only target hamelin spell' to a untill end of turn or requires a WP->WP duel to target another model, basicly to prevent a model from being rendered mostly useless

I note we're now suggesting a LOT of changes across the board when you take into account everyone's opinion on this.

2 - one of the major things that makes hamelin great is that he not only can control objective completion (via insignificant) but he also has has great combat potiental in the rats (they are insainly good in a pack) I would say remove instinctuial from them, preventing them from moving and attacking with a +, not a massive change I realize but enough to limit Hamelins overall combat potiential

Most models can move and attack once, why not rats? I think they only got slow as an opening stat to make it easier to track which have been summoned etc... (can you imagine having 4 non-slow and 3 slow rats?) Havig said that, I don't understand why the have Impetuous to give the +ive flips...

3 - Change his resurectin mechanic back twords its origional wording (obiviously without the infinite combo) posibly by making summon a stolen a once per crew per activation spell. This prevents the hiding a stolen in back to save hamelin, and forces them to stay close to Hamelin and thus making them more vulnerable

I see what you're saying but personally feel making it harder to summon stolen is the answer. It's unlikely they'd change the mechanic back to what it was before.

[Guy in Suit]

I agree wholeheartedly with Ziggy's suggestions.

I really so no reason rats need to be so powerful with the positive twists. You are already staring at a blob of unkillable models, giving them a permanent +flip is odd. I think the solution is to take away the instinctual so they can't push as well as get the + would tone them down but they'd still be a huge threat.

[Ratty]

If you announce these I will sac/kill and resummon the models, nerfing your schemes

ER that wouldn't work. sac/kill and resummoning means he would get points for Kidnap. The model has been removed from the board, the new model is a totally different model. Kill Protegy is quite good also, Most of the time you would be targeting Nix, I'm fine with the opponent Sacing Nix as he can't resummon him.

Most models can move and attack once, why not rats? I think they only got slow as an opening stat to make it easier to track which have been summoned etc... (can you imagine having 4 non-slow and 3 slow rats?) Havig said that, I don't understand why the have Impetuous to give the +ive flips...

Again they are not the same models... They are totally different rats. OK most of the time you will use the same physical piece of metal, but they have no memory of the rat which the piece of metal was used to represent before. Edited June 13, 2011 by Ratty

[Necromorph]

Most models can move and attack once, why not rats? I think they only got slow as an opening stat to make it easier to track which have been summoned etc... (can you imagine having 4 non-slow and 3 slow rats?) Havig said that, I don't understand why the have Impetuous to give the +ive flips...

Two things I can think of. 1...well they are slow, so they will only get 1 attack, and because they have low stats, it makes it easier to make that 1 attack count.

2- If Nix is near them beaconing emptiness, then they get a negative flip...Impetuous keeps them at a straight so you're not screwing yourself by keeping your support model close...where he belongs.

I'm not getting into anyting regarding balance, fairness, blah blah blah....these are just some solid reasons I can think of as to why they would get the +flip.