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Hamelin is better than we think


magicpockets

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I'm kinda taking away from this that Hamelin might very well still be the best Master but the margin isn't all that huge.

Personally I'd say Pandora was my strongest master given the sheer damage I can do across multiple woes and JackDaw, but Hamelin is a very, very good crew to use in a tourny as long as you keep the pace up.

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Honestly I think Colette can be very strong vs Hamelin. In an objective game, you can just play keep away and use your powers of speed and manipulation to your advantage. In a scenario where you try to kill him, she seems blessed and cursed. On one hand, much of the stuff in Hamelin's crew won't be able to hit Cassandra or the Duet with much success. It would take careful planning, the sacrificing of many models, and the liberal spamming of Nix's emptiness to flat out kill them.

On the other hand, you also only have 2 models that a Hamelin player will find threatening, which is good for Hamelin because it means he has to do that much less work to make the important parts of your crew insignificant and kill them.

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Yes Colette crew has options. Positive flips with soulstones also helps against Hamelin making me insignificant.

And Magic, Disappearing act has nothing to do with the strategies I have in mind :flame:Just some movement and activation combo's I thought of that are not in any Tactica!...but can outright kill most things in a single activation and leave no counter...Some things I concocted to deal with Pandora, but should work well against Hamelin too...

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Overall, I think the key is understanding Hamelin and how to counter him. My two toughest opponents new how to counter him and built a list around that

These remarks dont support the argument that Hamelin is not a very strong Master in both casual and competitive play. Quite the contrary actually, they show that he is probably a bit too good as currently written and probably in need of some balancing (Not trying to take anything away from you. I am sure you are a very good player, however at least two of your opponents were as well and purpose built lists to defeat him).

Each Master/crew should have their niche and be a bit better at somethings then others, however none should be able to dominate the game. P Haley & P Sorcha in Warmachine Mark 1 (both before and after the tweeks) did this and were almost always over represented in competive play, usually finishing in the top spots. This is the first sign that something is in need of re-balancing.

With the Malifaux tournament scene heating up in a lot of places (and more TO's posting results on the forum), I wouldn't be surprised if several of the Rising Powers Masters dominated the competitive scene. (Afterall most of them haven't received much if any errata/ refinement yet).

Small additional request: Please post the Battle report between you and Drake when the game is completed. The ratehr vague plan for Colette intrigues me a bit.

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@omenbringer

My Colette plan will have to remain vague for now but we will post up a battle report with tactical summary...

As for Hamelin I feel he is beatable and relies on couple of core models. Take those out and he is a much easier prospect. (I drew against Magic's Hamelin having never seen him before and new to the game).

Malifaux in general seems to be a matter of knowing your opponent. Most games against a master for the first time will be challenging. once you know their strengths and weaknesses...

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^^ what Drake said, I could destroy anyone with Zoraida, Pandora or Hamelin if they'd never played against me before - once you understand a master's mechanic they start to fall apart. Hamlin is strong, my point is he's not some completely unbalanced auto-win master like people try to make out. I don't think his impact on the game is anymore devastating than Collette, Kirai, LCB or Pandora. But @omenbringer you've clearly decided on your view so not really much point in arguing it with you.

If I remember I'll post a turn by turn thread for the games on Friday night with Ashley (Drake), both the slaughter strategy and the "normal" game.

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I agree with you that Hamelin is beatable (have said it several times in this thread) the problem is that even when you know his tricks he is still very difficult to counter (I have played both aginast and with him quite a bit, as have several of your opponents in the tourney referenced). His abilities clearly have a huge impact on the game and his competitiveness, why else would you title this thread "Hamelin is better then we think" and all your tournament specific posts demonstrate this impact?

Slightly off topic but, I also agree that several of the Masters you mentioned (mainly from Rising Powers) are also very strong in competitive play and probably in need of some re-balancing (Colette especially).

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Honestly, I'm more afraid of Colette than Hamelin...maybe that's because I understand him and know how I would go about beating him.

Ugh, and I have to play against her on Saturday for a League, and Odin1981 is very good with her...not looking forward to that. Unless I can come up with something strong for Levi or my Mercs (maybe possible with Levi but I don't think Mercs would stand a chance) I might have to play Hamelin just to level the playing field by using one "top tier" master against the other.

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I think the main reason Rising Powers masters tend to come across as more powerful is simply because they tend to bring with them a new dynamic to the game, that players with book 1 masters are not used to. The increased mobility/numbers being the obvious examples. But those crews have their weaknesses. usually relying on only a couple of models dishing out the hurt, and generally being more fragile if caught out.

Learn to fight them and you learn to beat them as well as any other master. That's my 2 cents worth. But I appreciate the viewpoint of others.

Maybe the post up after the battle between me and Magic might provide some ideas for other gamers on ways to counter and defeat these more unorthodox crews....

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Yeah magic, I shall do my bit for the benefit of fellow anti-Hamelin players :D

I love the fluff on the guy though and I think he is a great master, not too overpowered, so if we can demonstrate both sides of him, that will hopefully provide a more rounded approach.

I will also be employing tactics that other non showgirl crews can implement. Although some manouevers will be specific to my crew but the principles will still be transferrable....

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Honestly, I'm more afraid of Colette than Hamelin...maybe that's because I understand him and know how I would go about beating him.

Ugh, and I have to play against her on Saturday for a League, and Odin1981 is very good with her...not looking forward to that. Unless I can come up with something strong for Levi or my Mercs (maybe possible with Levi but I don't think Mercs would stand a chance) I might have to play Hamelin just to level the playing field by using one "top tier" master against the other.

Don't play viks played against them 2-3 times so far and I don't see how they would have a good matchup against colette. But thats all the advice I'll give you before our game. Just be glad we are limited to 35ss so I can't take everything I'd want to against hamelin (I would personally want 40-45ss range against hamelin).

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Haha...trust me, I won't be bringing Viks...or any Mercs for that matter...I just can't wrap my head around how they would beat Colette. Even in an objective game they'd just get bogged down by Cassadra/Duet and never be able to achieve anything.

Levi has potential, but I still don't like her speed or my odds of keeping the Waifs alive. Plus he's a master that you typically don't run a lot of ss with, so I wouldn't be hitting things often, and taking less models to get more ss just seems like a huge disadvantage to a crew that already gets outactivated all the time.

So...Hamelin is the only real power master that I could bring that can compete on her level.

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Haha...not many factions do, Neverborn maybe.

Hamelin can do fine against her, it really comes down to Strats/Schemes and who has better luck cheating with ss, lol (which mine is terrible). Well, and things like tactics, skill, board control, blah blah blah...but assuming all other things are equal they are pretty even.

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Big thing is my crew is mainly a resource list. And the best things to take are models that have abilities that take away resources, granted those things are always a top priority to mannequin replacment off the board. But I really feel the biggest problem most people have against colette is not understanding that if I only have say 2 cards in hand I really can't use my greatest strengths of the crew.

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I just wanted to throw this out there, Im going to gencon this year and am in 3 of the Malifaux tournies. I have outcasts as one of my main factions but as much as i LOVE Hamelin I didnt want the people i played feeling that i was being cheesy. With the clarifications on him and seeing the topic of this post, do you guys think he is just fine to bring without making everyone i play roll their eyes and groan the entire time. I know some people still dont like him but I think his fluff is awesome and really want to play him :D .

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Just a quick comment on not having enough control cards for Colette's crew, remember she can sack a ss for 2 extra cards..

@Bigmike, as long as you can keep the pace going in a tournament time limit, he is fine to play. Just dont be stingy on reminding your opponent what your things do, as there is a lot going on in his crew, although dont tell him your tactics!. Getting caught out is the worst thing about playing against him.. Unless you really want to just win ofcourse!

Thats my personal opinion though

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It mainly depends on the power level of the tournament. If the event is a high power level event and you get crapped on by the rng proc of the event pairing you up against hard counters to hamelin (more importantly if the players you face actually understand the target priority against hamelin) you could be facing a tough event.

However the main thing about these boards is alot of the complaining on the boards these days stems from people playing against book 2 masters who either 1 have not played against said master and don't know what to do or 2 have a book 1 master and minions and never thought to invest in book 2 stuff to complement their existing crews.

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