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Hamelin is better than we think


magicpockets

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So I got the chance to run Hamelin in a very competitive tourny this weekend and I can say I now believe he's a lot more balanced than people have been making out. Yes he's very powerful, but no more so than other power crews such as LCB, showgirls, Pandora, Kirai etc.

Also, the entire tourny was run in line with Gaining Ground and the 85 minute time limit didn't end up being a problem - as long as you (the Hamelin player) know what you're doing it's fairly easy to keep things moving along nicely, I think most games got to at least turn 4 by the time the end was called.

Overall he's not the most fun master to play as (you only really have one approach to take), but by no means do I feel now I've gotten to grips with him and played against some very able players that he's a auto-win master. I may run him again in Cardiff at the end of the month to see how he goes down, but all in all I think time (at least for me) has shown he's more balanced than we first thought.

Anyone else had any views on this now they've had chance to get to grips with him?

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He is definately very strong, but not unbeatable (as are most of the Masters from Book 2). My problem with him is that he changes the dynamic of the strategies and schemes, since the only way to really consistantly beat him is to kill him (and all The Stolen on the board so he cant use Indiscrimanat Void to come back) and Nix. Additionally, I think Understand the Soulless is a bit to good and potentially game changing (more so if the target is within 6" of the stolen that he sacrifices to power it).

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He affects how the game is played too much. Handing out insignificant disables too many schemes and strategies. Other masters work within the framework of the game - a kill to remove a model from scoring potential. While death has additional benefits in as much as the dead usually cannot strike back, the regenerative element to hamelin's force mitigates the fact that an opponent is left alive after being hit by the spell. Hamelin is pretty safe from them and outside the difficult to kill nix, you actually want the rest to get killed.

As you say, he is no more problematic in a time-constraint fashion than many other masters, but that's an issue with the complexity of the game, not any individual master (though some exacerbate it). Some factions need more time than others to go for their points, and in a limited time format, the master than can prevent those points being accrued at range is going to do well. I own him and find him a bit too good, and having seen him played by others I find nothing to alter my opinion.

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The biggest problem with him to me is outside of the ortega's and witchling stalkers to my knowledge there isn't much else that can dispel off insignificant in the game.

If when the third book comes out if their are more options for all factions it will probably go a long way to reiging in Hamelin.

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Certainly the making you insignificant trick is a real downer, and he's a master you're only going to win against if you've played against him a few times - just too much to know about for an inexperienced or lucky-first-time win.

A bit off topic first;

This is a problem I see with not just Hamelin, but also Colette and to a much lesser extent Lilith. When you play against them you really do have to play a much more cerebral game then the other player. This is not always a bad thing but it definately does turn off a lot of new players because of their easy dominance. They really don't have many weaknesses in competitive play and are very forgiving to mistakes by the player.

Back on topic:

When playing against Hamelin it doesn't really matter what you flip for your strategy it is always going to be secondary to killing Hamelin and Nix. It is the only chance of consistantly wining against him because the insignifcant trait on his crew only matters if they are off the board. Killing his minions is usually a losing propsition as well because so much happens (that is to his crews benefit) when they are killed or Sacrificed (even when he does it to power Understand the Soulless).

The other things that make him really difficult to play against are;

1) Bully which doesn't offer a chance to resist/ overcome it like similar abilities, i.e. Terrifying, Harmless, Pitiful, or Irrestible.

2) The ability to make your models insignificant whether for a turn or permanently (even you Master). It gives Hamelin the opportunity to win games by just making your whole crew Insignifcant and unable to contribute to VP totals.

Dont get me wrong I love his fluff but I do think he is in need of some serious re-balancing (more so then even Colette and definately sooner).

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I don't play Hamelin, but I have for sure played against him and have been thinking of picking him up. I have to say, I feel he's just as beatable as any other master in the game. Giving more things the ability to get rid of his abilities nullifies what it means to play Hamelin and to play against him. I've seen him lose, and it didn't take the person being immune to him to do it. I agree with the original poster in the fact that people just need time to understand him and then he becomes playable and beatable. People said the same things about the Dreamer when he first cam out too.

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I'm not actually sure that killing Hamelin is all that important for most of the strategies (atleast depending on your faction). Things like supply wagon your only concern really is Nix. If you can kill him I don't believe he can stop you. Things like deliver message, treasure hunt, distract, turf war, line in the sand, and plant evidence as long as you use speed to avoid him there's not much he can do. It is nearly impossible for him to beat Kirai because there's very little he can do to hurt her and all the rats dying off are of great benefit to her. Seamus heals when the rats die so they help him out too. Anything with terrifying immediately creates a problem for Hamelin, so most of the neverborn and ressurectionist should be hard to beat. As for the guild, the only master that should have an exceptionally hard time aginst him is Lady J, which the first time I played against him I used her. I think had I known his tricks it would've been a close game. The Viktorias and all their mobility should be able to nullify the rat catchers and hamelin quickly with support from von schill. Basically, what I'm saying is if you don't let his tricks intimidate you and you know his shenanigans he's not that tough. I don't play the arcanists so I don't know how they do against him but I've heard the answer is not well and the gremlins are an autoloss to him too, so he still has his place.

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Ok, so basically, if you're playing slaughter against him, and you lose (unless Hamelin is running Magic's Young Nephilim Spam which I haven't tested...yet) there's a problem. Bring anything with a pulse, blast or things like Ryle's Fully Automatic and you pretty much get your 4 Vp's, take a Grudge on a Catcher and Kill Protege on Nix and gg (well not that simple, but he is reaaaaally at a disadvantage in slaughter).

In objective games, you're just not going to be able to dedicate enough resources to killing him and grabbing objectives for the game to go in your favor if you try. If you're playing for the objectives......play the objectives. Send your biggest baddest models straight down his throat and force him to deal with them early when he hasn't built up momentum. This should give you a solid turn or 2 to get your objectives done and turtle up, then it's survival mode / objective denial for the rest of the game. Guess what, your big hitters are dead (and then will be anyway regardless at some point in the game), don't try to kill him, sit on your 8 VP's and avoid him / try to deny him an objective.

Kind of a rough summary but w/e.

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Craig (ukrocky), here's some ideas -

1) Kill the Rat Catchers first - most crews can take models geared at doing just this from a distance (Austringers, Nino, Rami,, Hopkins, Zoraida via conduit, mechanical doves with magicians duel, bette noir from a rat etc...) Without Kill All Rats the swarm slows down and does significantly less damage. It also limits Hamelin's mobility as he is the only one now with a 6" voracious rats aura

2) Lure (or similar) Nix away from the swarm so he has trouble healing and take him out second. Alpha strikes, magic weapons etc work well against him - just watch for his 3" -ive aura

3) Turn the card mechanic to your advantage - burn Hamelins hand in turn one (even if you cheat just to force him to cheat and not to win) as you get a fresh hand in turn two and he doesn't - then go in with soulstones against his minions rather than cheating to keep him card starved. Also, only cheat when there is a low card on his discard pile - NEVER when there is a high on unless it's essential.

4) Remember rats don't block movement, dont block LOS and don't make disengaging strikes. They are also very susceptible to Terrifying if the rat catchers are dead (usually you can bring the rats back and do kill all rats to get new ones) - esp if within 3" of Nix with his aura.

5) Hamelin himself is harder to deal with, but ask yourself if you really need to to win your strategy. If you do, take out the rat catchers and then start picking models off outside of 6" of Hamelin (as they don't spawn rats) - this limits his ability to sac models for his buffs/spells. Use lure or similar to pull them out to kill them if you can. Also, as mentioned above, blasts and pulses are your friend if you've been made insignificant.

6) Keep your master away from Nix. If you're in Nix's aura and Hamelin is in range, chances are he's setting you up and Hamelin's holding a card which means you're either dead (9wds melee + blight counters) or insignificant (understand the soulless).

Some ideas there for you, expect to see them used against me soon ;)

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Did you win the tournament? Also, what did you face and how did the games go? No need for an in depth blow by blow, just the general feel.

Yes I won, but by no means was it a landslide. Games were -

Shared Claim Jump Vs Collette. Made coryphee duet and cassandra insignificant turn two. Irresistible lure to bring Cassandra out from hiding to charge her with Hamelin - 2vp for kill protégée. Swarmed the centre for a win 6:2

Shared reconnoiter vs Viks. Hit specialist turn two with pipes and did detonate tanks. Hit him again and he exploded. Made sword vik insignificant with a casting total of 34. Used swarm to kill ronin etc and took all four table quarters. Can't remember overall score.

Shared slaughter against LCB. Opponent knew my slaughter idea so alpha striked me, but still had 14ss by this point. Alp bomb and terrifying were problems so sacrificed nearly all my non soulless models via Nix to avoid giving VPs away. Hamelin one hit his teddy, then died to LCB. Nix held his own against LCB (despite 4 attacks, onslaught and soulstones) and kept a 4:4 draw alive.

Shared Treasure Hunt against Kirai. Hamelin ran to the treasure counter, quickly followed by Nix. Four turns of combat in the centre of the table with Hamelin holding the treasure. Opponent summoned two Shikome to try and kill Hamelin, first failed and second was made insignificant for final turn by rats o t couldn't target Hamelin. This game and whole tourney depended on the last card I played in this game. Won 6:4.

Overall a very close tourney and there were about 6 people who could ave won I on the flip of a card.

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So how again is Hamelin not really strong?

In a tournament environment you took on three of the other really strong Masters and pretty decisively beat them (with the Exception of the Dreamer, though as you said he was actively working to counter your Slaughter plan).

He can be beaten, however it definately is not an easy thing to do consistantly.

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Just because you take on strong masters and crews doesn't mean you play against good players using them. I personally find it really hard that the colette player would willingly place both models that are good in range of a shot at making both of them insignificant so easily.

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In a tournament environment you took on three of the other really strong Masters and pretty decisively beat them (with the Exception of the Dreamer, though as you said he was actively working to counter your Slaughter plan).

.

The game was a semi learning curve for the Collette player so wouldn't make same decisions again (ie he didn't know about irresistible lure when he tried to hide Cassandra). Although I find Collette a relatively easy match as they have so few models.

Vicks again was a learning curve, no way he would take a specialist again like that. And he'd never played agains Hamelin before, so again I had the advantage.

LCB was always going to be tough even with my slaughter idea due to sheer number of terrifying models he has and slow/wounds from alps. Plus the guy playing him had played against Hamelin before.

Kirai at the end was tough as I took no rats and relied on Hamelin and Nix rather than give him ht 1 models to sac. All I essentially had to do was hold on to the treasure and not die - with 8ss and nix there it was tough for him in 4 turns, and he came within a card flip of winning. Btw, the opponent is also a Hamelin player.

Overall, I think the key is understanding Hamelin and how to counter him. My two toughest opponents new how to counter him and built a list around that, and it got very close. And by no stretch am I a poor or inexperienced player.

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Overall a very close tourney and there were about 6 people who could ave won I on the flip of a card.

Thank you for the report! A very nice read :)

I'm kinda taking away from this that Hamelin might very well still be the best Master but the margin isn't all that huge. Of course the sample is very small and tainted by the fact that you were playing him (in that perhaps you are simply an incredibly good player) but a good data point nonetheless. Thank you again and congrats on the win.

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