When does Hamelin's insignificant end

[magicpockets]

I can't find the original thread to necro to get this answer so thought it'd make sense to repost it for an answer.

If Hamelin's crew makes stuff insignificant, when does it end? The skills etc say "until the end of the encounter" - so does insignificant end before VPs are calculated which happens after the end of the game?

[Sandwich]

I would say its a toss up, RaW or RaI.

Though I don't rightly know the intention.

But I'm on the "It ends before VP is calculated" boat.

[tadaka]

So the idea being is models could still get vp for some thing like breakthrough then?

[tenabrae]

I would say until the models leave play, which would be after VPs.

[magicpockets]

For the record, I'm with Sandwich on this. Make them insignificant for the game advantage, but not for VPs. But we need a RM on this.

[Hookers]

For the record, I'm with Sandwich on this. Make them insignificant for the game advantage, but not for VPs. But we need a RM on this.

rules as written that is how it works. "until the end" of the encounter means it ends at the end of the encounter. VPs are calculated after the end of the encounter, or at the end of the encounter. Either point in time is after "until the end" of the encounter meaning the effect will not still be active.

[tadaka]

rules as written that is how it works. "until the end" of the encounter means it ends at the end of the encounter. VPs are calculated after the end of the encounter, or at the end of the encounter. Either point in time is after "until the end" of the encounter meaning the effect will not still be active.

Book says at the end for vp and that's the same thing as at the end. That being said I would not mind seeing it being ruled the other way. I just cant agree that is rules as written.

[magicpockets]

Bump for a RM

[Hookers]

Book says at the end for vp and that's the same thing as at the end.

correct. at the end is the same as at the end. it is different from until the end.

think of it like the difference between < and =

until the end is everything up til that point, whereas at the end is only that point. so as soon as the end happens, the effect stops since it only lasts until the end. at this point you calculate vps.

thats RAW, and almost certainly intent

[MadArcanist]

Bump for an rm too, mainly cause I wanna pick hamlin up soon and wanna know for if I wanna be a dick on the board or not

[LoboStele]

Woah, that's weird....see, I had thought from reading it that you would be Insignificant...like....forever. Like it could really hose you on any Schemes/Strategies, unless you managed to kill Hamelin before the end of the game.

I sort of see the argument here, for "until the end" vs. "at the end". I wonder if it isn't somewhat similar to the "within X range" discussions shortly before the Rules Manual came out though. Definitely need a Marshall ruling on that.

[Hookers]

Definitely need a Marshall ruling on that.

whenever you use the word "until" what is the use you associate with it?

do you mean forever? you do mean that you want whatever you said until with to go beyond that?

no of course not. i will be single until i get married. the minute i get married i am no longer single. anything that was a condition upon me being single no longer exists (:kabong:)

you are insignificant until the end of the encounter happens. as soon as that happens you are no longer insignificant.

i think the plain language of the rules speak for themselves on this

[LoboStele]

Yes, but you tally VP "at the end" of the encounter. So, is that something which is completely outside of the encounter, or is the 'end' still considered a part of the encounter? I understand the argument, and I would tend to agree, as otherwise, Hamelin's crew is nearly broken in that it would force you to kill Hamelin almost every game in order to pull off your strategy/schemes.

It's the darn english language. Too many ways to interpret words sometimes.

[magicpockets]

Look, I agree that insignificant lasts until the end, then comes off and then you calculate VPs. But some people don't, so lets just get a Sketch or someone to confirm it and we can all sleep easier at night

[Sandwich]

Yes, but you tally VP "at the end" of the encounter. So, is that something which is completely outside of the encounter, or is the 'end' still considered a part of the encounter? I understand the argument, and I would tend to agree, as otherwise, Hamelin's crew is nearly broken in that it would force you to kill Hamelin almost every game in order to pull off your strategy/schemes.

It's the darn english language. Too many ways to interpret words sometimes.

Doesn't the RM say you tally VP after the end of the encounter?

[Hookers]

Doesn't the RM say you tally VP after the end of the encounter?

it actually does say at. i don't think that makes a difference

perhaps someone is envisioning a fraction of an unmeasurable second where you can sneak in calculating vps before "until" ends at that exact same moment.

i haven't ever seen until used in a way different than what i'm describing.

here is what webster says:

–conjunction 1. up to the time that or when; till: He read until his guests arrived.

2. before (usually used in negative constructions): They did not come until the meeting was half over.

–preposition 3. onward to or till (a specified time or occurrence): She worked until 6 p.m.

4. before (usually used in negative constructions): He did not go until night.

i think that is the same definition 4 times but i could be wrong. either way all of those definitions support my explanation and understanding of how that rule is supposed to work

[magicpockets]

–preposition 3. onward to or till (a specified time or occurrence): She worked until 6 p.m.

So by your reasoning, if I said "she finished work at 6pm" that would be different?

[Hookers]

So by your reasoning, if I said "she finished work at 6pm" that would be different?

yes. "she finished work at 6pm" describes the moment when she was done working ie. at 5:59:59 she was still working and is done the moment it turns 6:00:00. the reason this sentence has the same meaning as the example sentence is precisely because until means all of the moments up to that point, excluding that point itself. you changed the point of reference from the time she was actually working to the time when she stopped working. "she worked until 6pm" describes the duration of her work, at 6pm she is no longer working. also your example goes more into the definition of "at" than the definition of "until." we can go down that road if you want...

but a more similar example would be "she worked until 6pm. she started enjoying her weekend at 6pm." she cannot enjoy her weekend while she is working, her work lasts until the moment before 6pm (again the less than example) and "at" 6 pm she starts to enjoy her weekend

for the game terms your sentences would be comparing "the model is insignificant until the end of the encounter" with "the model is finished being insignificant at the end of the encounter." which is precisely what i am saying.

again

perhaps someone is envisioning a fraction of an unmeasurable second where you can sneak in calculating vps before "until" ends at that exact same moment.

[magicpockets]

Like I said from the start, I agree with you and - to be honest - I don't understand why you're on such a high horse about this, were not saving lives here - its only a game after all.

There's some confusion, and no matter how eloquenty you argue your point there'll always be some confusion (or rules wrangling) until a RM steps in and clears I up. So why not just chill and wait.

Having said that, I'm not sure why this is takin so long to be answered by someone - if it is as clean cut as we think then it should be an easy one to answer, it's a question of intent and shouldn't need playteting etc. Perhaps there's more to it than we think?

[Hookers]

Like I said from the start, I agree with you and - to be honest - I don't understand why you're on such a high horse about this, were not saving lives here - its only a game after all.

do i sound like i'm on a high horse? i apologize. it is the internet after all.

you made a statement that sounds like the same thing in the vernacular but had a subtle difference with the example sentence, and that difference was the same difference that is found in the wording of the rules. i might have even used too many examples to clarify it, but again, internet, so can never have too much clarification when it comes to the written word.

it would not be hard to have a rules marshall confirm what "until" means, but at the same time, words mean what they mean and when every possible use of the word means the same thing there isn't anything left to interpretation.

i know you said you are agreeing with me, but at the same time i'm not arguing with you either. i'm explaining exactly why there is only one possible interpretation.

it would requiring a ruling if they were to say that the insignificant does carry over past the end of the game, because then they have defined "until" differently for their ruleset (up to and including the point in time).

[tenabrae]

Sooo... if insig ends before VPs... does hamelin's crew also lose the benefit of being not insignificant ?

I think it's a pretty huge can of worms, what about buried models since the game effect burying them would end before VPs ? What about models that need tokens or counters, do they continue to exist and count for VPs ?

[magicpockets]

i'm explaining exactly why there is only one possible interpretation.

Okay, and we hear you. Can you let it go now until we get a RM?

Sooo... if insig ends before VPs... does hamelin's crew also lose the benefit of being not insignificant ?

I think it's a pretty huge can of worms, what about buried models since the game effect burying them would end before VPs ? What about models that need tokens or counters, do they continue to exist and count for VPs ?

I think that's in danger of making it more complicated than it is. No other skill etc (iirc) has an impact on VPs with a reference to anything ending "at the end of the game" - let's just keep this thread about Hamelin. However of course you can start your own thread if you feel strongly about it.

[tenabrae]

I think that's in danger of making it more complicated than it is. No other skill etc (iirc) has an impact on VPs with a reference to anything ending "at the end of the game" - let's just keep this thread about Hamelin. However of course you can start your own thread if you feel strongly about it.

I cannot agree with your premise.

Rules don't exist in a vacuum, where there's no rule to say otherwise making a urling that one thing ends before VPs are calculated implies everything does.

Not only that, but surely ruling that cases of insignificant applied by hamelin&friends end before calculating VPs is also strongly tied to Hamelin/Nix's ability to make Hamelins own models count as significant for the same purpose ?

I see no need to create a new thread to discuss closely related topics that are likely to be impacted by any ruling on the topic.

[magicpockets]

I see no need to create a new thread to discuss closely related topics that are likely to be impacted by any ruling on the topic.

I was talking about your reference to counters etc... not Hamelin's crew

[Hookers]

Sooo... if insig ends before VPs... does hamelin's crew also lose the benefit of being not insignificant ?

no. Nihilism - ... If this model is in play at the end of the encounter, no friendly models count as insignificant.

I think it's a pretty huge can of worms, what about buried models since the game effect burying them would end before VPs ? What about models that need tokens or counters, do they continue to exist and count for VPs ?

Vague question. If you name an ability I can explain why it still works.

Two off the top of my head-

Death Marshall's Pine Box - Explicitly says "while target is removed from play, it counts as a casualty for scenario purposes." The model would have a final chance during the last closing phase to make a Wp->Wp duel to come back.

Colette's Disappearing Act - Also explicitly says when the model returns (during the start closing phase) which happens before the end of the encounter and thus the model would be present for scoring VPs.

The abilities that affect VPs state so expressly ie. Excessive Bleeding, Mark for Death, Pine box

As far as "letting it go" I am only responding to anything that would call into the question the validity of my explanation. I want to be playing with the correct rules as much as everyone else, so if someone points out why my understanding is incorrect I want to know about it. Interesting points have been made but nothing that changes the extremely simple definition of "until" or the difference between "until" and "at."

Even if the author intended the ability to count for VP purposes at the end of the encounter without expressly stating it as opposed to every other ability that does so, I doubt a rules marshall would come now and say that it does affect it. The ability already makes it so you can't target hamelin (which is good enough to want to use it) and prevents you with interacting with most objectives during the game. Extending it to beyond the game is not only unnecessary but might be unbalanced.

[tenabrae]

All the nightmare bury effects ?

Pairs of canine remains (and other models with similar ability)

These are off the top of my head, I'm sure if we went model by model we could find all sorts of things that might make a difference if game effects end before VPs are calculated.