Starting with Pandora...

[M_Ruckuss]

No that will work. Pandora can function at any crew design, elite spam, moderate spread, cheap spam etc. Remember that Pandora can win just by herself if need be, so it should work.

Just as always, watch out for Blast Damage and keep Coppelius safe or he will get eaten alive.

@Alondir-sorry, ive been running an IM, just (like Kade) not fitting m current playing style.

The general Idea is that list is my "im playing a 30ss game" starting point, then I have Kade (& maybe Candy), a pair of insidious madnesses, a teddy and a dopple ganger (which will almost certainly feature at some point in a new list) "on the bench" as it were, to swap in as needed...thanks for the feedback.

@Karn-awesome. Thanks for feedback-have learned out (the hard way!) to keep Coppelius safe- his 12" Float move, paralyze abilities and melee expert means he can paralyze models for a turn and fall back, allowing you to move the rest of my crew ino position. I agree, he definetly needs to be used carefully but I love him-another reason for the dolls as they are immune to his abilities and can heal off him.

Pandora was great- if I hadnt spammed off all my soulstones early on she wouldnt havedied she may have pretty much crippeled a Collette crew by herself (which had already won the game, but hey youve got to fight to the last!)

[Natty]

Nope. Not even required. I didn't use it for a long time and did very well with her.

That's because Pandora is one of the most powerful masters out there. But the question was about a "bad" way to build a Pandora crew. Sure you can win a TON of games with just Pandora and any old minion at all, but if you are taking Pandora as a given, and asking what a "bad" way to build her crew is, then I say not taking the doppelganger is bad. That is like not taking skeeters when you play Somer, or not taking undead minions when you play Nico.

I think Pandora is one of the best masters to let you personilize her crew just because she is so powerful that it doesn't matter what you take, but the doppelganger does everything for her and complements her perfectly.

I've played a lot against Pandora and I don't think I've had a game where the Doppleganger has even remotely made her points back. She is so easy to kill.

Well, I've played maybe 30 something games with Pandora and never once had the Doppelganger not earn its points. Not once. That model is breakable, sure, but if it is in danger or getting killed, then you need to plan ahead. Make any of the models that could get to it fall back. Activate the doppelganger first and copy defensive talents. Don't position the doppelganger where it is in trouble. Use pacify and incite to control their activations so you don't have to worry about the doppelganger (I tend to use that method a lot when I need to activate Pandora first and make sure I incite stuff that can't attack the doppel or pacify stuff that can).

Yeah, I've had the doppelganger die, but usually at the expense of a lot of resources from the opponent. The doppelganger is the most important minion in a Pandora crew and if you just throw it into the opponent's face, then it will probably die.

[Natty]

That being said, I did retire Pandora a couple months ago and haven't ever played her against some of the new super super fast crews. Pandora is a lot about positioning, harassing, and then striking when the time is right. I bet that a speedy crew like Colette or the Dreamer could mess up the best laid plans and take out the doppelganger without much worry.

[Ratty]

That being said, I did retire Pandora a couple months ago and haven't ever played her against some of the new super super fast crews. Pandora is a lot about positioning, harassing, and then striking when the time is right. I bet that a speedy crew like Colette or the Dreamer could mess up the best laid plans and take out the doppelganger without much worry.

My experience is with Kirai, which is fast. To get any use out of the Pandora synergy she has to be close and copying Offensive abilities, if she's doing that she is going to get killed almost immediately. If you make her defensive you don't get your points back on her.

[Natty]

My experience is with Kirai, which is fast. To get any use out of the Pandora synergy she has to be close and copying Offensive abilities, if she's doing that she is going to get killed almost immediately. If you make her defensive you don't get your points back on her.

When I go defensive with the doppelganger, I usually copy a defensive talent or stat, and then emotional trauma for extra damage for wp talents. Then I go into defensive stance. It takes a lot of resources to kill a doppelganger with 7 or 8 defense in defensive stance and copying nothing but emotional trauma the whole game will generally be a thorn in your opponents side.

I would say half the games I play with the doppelganger she is mainly just there to copy emotional trauma and when the time is right, copy a couple offensive abilities and go nuts with her, not caring if she dies.

[karn987]

That's because Pandora is one of the most powerful masters out there. But the question was about a "bad" way to build a Pandora crew. Sure you can win a TON of games with just Pandora and any old minion at all, but if you are taking Pandora as a given, and asking what a "bad" way to build her crew is, then I say not taking the doppelganger is bad. That is like not taking skeeters when you play Somer, or not taking undead minions when you play Nico.

I think Pandora is one of the best masters to let you personilize her crew just because she is so powerful that it doesn't matter what you take, but the doppelganger does everything for her and complements her perfectly.

Well Natty, your missing the point but thats fine. You make a lot of these statements. You are certainly right to an extent but it is far from cut and dry like you make it seem some times. It is not that black and white for the Doppelganger as it is for other models like Marionettes and Collidi.

Sure, as we have well established the Doppelganger is very good with Pandora. The Doppelganger is very good with most Neverborn Masters. But to say it is a bad Pandora crew to not include the Doppelganger is just false. As you said, it's been a while since you've used her.

I appreciate your view on this and your input on many posts but you confuse people with these things. She is not required to make the crew work, she is just a very good choice for the crew. An example of a required unit is the Daydreams for the Dreamer as he simply does not function well without them. So would be Marionettes for Collidi and Gremlins for Som'er. But even Sorrows are not required with Pandora, they are just very useful.

Really I should not be saying required as the only required models in the game I know of are Hollow Waifs for Leveticus. I should be saying Critical, because you can still play without those models but it generally immensely hurts the crew and master.

The Doppelganger is a very easy to gank model if someone wants to kill it. Unless you have the right things to Mimic to keep it safe or put a lot of effort into it, its not that hard to kill. Many units in book 1 and book 2 can threaten it and if nothing else, force it to stop Mimicing Emotional Trauma. Once it stops doing that and once it goes on the defensive it generally is not longer that big of a danger any more. But if left alone, it does tend to reek havoc.

I think most people have had games where its worth it's weight in gold and then others where it just gets nailed or there is no safe position to keep it. Guild Austringers for example are a huge pain in the but.

Ratty has it down. You can force the Doppelganger into submission by threatening it and having it go defensive or you can tempt it to go offensive and then kill it. Pandora can defend it and keep it safe but that wont last forever and she will be sacrificing other things to do it.

Basically:

Doppelganger with Pandora:

Pros: Terrifyingly powerful if left alone. Great double coverage of what makes Pandora so dangerous.

Cons: Expensive and easy to kill if focused on or to draining on your attention to keep it safe.

*Edited to be more clear in my meaning*

Edited December 29, 2010 by karn987
I was being a bit of a git, sorry ><

[Natty]

Basically Natty, please stop making these statements. I appreciate your view on this and your input on many posts but you confuse people with these things. She is not required to make the crew work, she is just a very good choice for the crew.

I think we are on totally different pages here. It was mentioned that there was no bad way to make a Pandora crew.

Something that is always

a very good choice for the crew.

seems to me like not taking it would be a bad choice.

There is no right or wrong way to play the game. It is about having fun, but if someone wants to know good and bad choices when building their crew, I am going to offer them honest advice, and that is that the doppelganger is ALWAYS a good choice. Not taking it is a bad choice. If you want to play certain models, then by all means, play those models and you can win with essentially any Pandora crew, but if you are asking me what is good/bad to take, then the only sure thing in my mind is that the doppelganger is GOOD. I can't see any competitive Pandora crew not using one, and that was basically the statement, what is good/bad, what is competitive, how do I WIN? That is what I think of when people say "bad". It's not like the cops are going to come in and arrest you when you don't field the doppelganger, but you have a MUCH better chance of winning by fielding one than if you don't field one. I can't see the result of that choice as anything but a "good" or "bad" choice.

Whooooooooo..... kinda ranted there, and I'm sorry. You are one of my favorite people on these boards, Karn, and I think you are probably the most helpful person around, but in this situation, I think it is pretty black and white, and the doppelganger is as important to building a good Pandora crew as multiple daydreams is to building a good Chompy crew.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Natty

[Natty]

Again, I'm sorry for the rant but I wanted to accentuate the point that I was talking about building a crew to win. Karn is totally right that there is never any way you HAVE to build a crew, but there are ways you can build crews that have a better chance of winning. Seriously, it's a game, if you don't like the doppelganger then don't play it. Pandora is a force to be reckoned with even is she is by herself.

I have never once lost a game using Pandora (most of the reason I retired her), and the doppelganger was vital in almost every one of those games. The games where the doppelganger wasn't vital was usually the games where I played silurid alpha strike, and took out entire crews with them (again, not fun). Even then, though, I used the doppelganger as a huge target to position my enemy correctly.

[M_Ruckuss]

Again, I'm sorry for the rant but I wanted to accentuate the point that I was talking about building a crew to win. Karn is totally right that there is never any way you HAVE to build a crew, but there are ways you can build crews that have a better chance of winning. Seriously, it's a game, if you don't like the doppelganger then don't play it. Pandora is a force to be reckoned with even is she is by herself.

I have never once lost a game using Pandora (most of the reason I retired her), and the doppelganger was vital in almost every one of those games. The games where the doppelganger wasn't vital was usually the games where I played silurid alpha strike, and took out entire crews with them (again, not fun). Even then, though, I used the doppelganger as a huge target to position my enemy correctly.

Thats probably fair enough natty- with your playing style it seems you have really got the most out of her. I am not looking to win every game- thats not what I am asking when I ask if a model works. I was more asking "will I get my arse handed to me if I play with x".

The dopple is a great model, but at 8ss its pretty much her or Coppelius at 30ss.Hes been outstanding for me (especially when coupled with a few Stitched) and even though I cant claim to be enjoying the same amount of success, i'd go back to 40k as I lost VERY few games out of the 70+ opponents I played- thats not what this games about for me!!!!

My aim is to pick a crew that I really enjoy playing after 40 games, not one that bores me as I dont stop winning. The dopple will feature at some point, but I dont think I want any auto-includes in my crew, as I will get bored v. quickly.

I'm immensley greatful to all who have given me advice on the thread-especially woodshcow and Karn, they have really helped my understanding of the models I use. The most important thing they seem to say, however, is enjoy your game, which I whole heartedly agree with.

Try playing P again with a different list, not using the dopple. You may even enjoy her again. (Please note this is not meant to be inflammatory, merely a suggestion meant in the best possible way- ive started to enjoy 40k again as ive rediscovered the joy of turning up with a list and your opponent goes wtf!!!

Try playing her with the object of annoying your opponent- its great!!!!!) I believe I enjoy the neverborn the most when I adopt a mindset in line with the mask suit description- I love the deception and audascious attempts at stuff we can do (only topped by collettes "turn into a mannequin my pretty). Its not about the win, but the fun.

If 40k taught me anything, its how you win, not how often bud.

[oozeboss]

I believe I enjoy the neverborn the most when I adopt a mindset in line with the mask suit description - I love the deception and audascious attempts at stuff we can do (only topped by collettes "turn into a mannequin my pretty"). Its not about the win, but the fun.

If 40k taught me anything, its how you win, not how often bud.

..... which is the best advice of all ever given in this forum.

:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell

[Natty]

Try playing P again with a different list, not using the dopple. You may even enjoy her again.

Nah, the always winning was only a small part and it was mainly the fall back that made her not fun in my opinion. I really REALLY found everything about Pandora to be fun except the fall back trigger.

With fall back, a soulstoned cast and any minion in the game is out for up to 3 turns (run away, rally, run back), and a soulstoned cast and you have about a 50/50 shot of doing the same thing to a master (assuming they also have a high card and soulstone the resist)[and if they already have project emotions on them, you can get them to fall back even with a really low crow].

Then you throw on top of that the :minus twist and basically anything can kill someone that is falling back.

There is no single ability in the game that has anywhere near the power level of that fall back trigger. I didn't like looking at my first hand, seeing a few high crows, and immediately knowing the game was won before any activations were even taken. Since I've retired her I've played Zoraida, The Dreamer, and My friend's Viks crew and I have to say I have enjoyed all of those games a lot more than most of my Pandora games.

My biggest hope for Malifaux is that they release the Avatar version of Pandora and rework her without the fall back trigger.

[M_Ruckuss]

Nah, the always winning was only a small part and it was mainly the fall back that made her not fun in my opinion. I really REALLY found everything about Pandora to be fun except the fall back trigger.

With fall back, a soulstoned cast and any minion in the game is out for up to 3 turns (run away, rally, run back), and a soulstoned cast and you have about a 50/50 shot of doing the same thing to a master (assuming they also have a high card and soulstone the resist)[and if they already have project emotions on them, you can get them to fall back even with a really low crow].

Then you throw on top of that the :minus twist and basically anything can kill someone that is falling back.

There is no single ability in the game that has anywhere near the power level of that fall back trigger. I didn't like looking at my first hand, seeing a few high crows, and immediately knowing the game was won before any activations were even taken. Since I've retired her I've played Zoraida, The Dreamer, and My friend's Viks crew and I have to say I have enjoyed all of those games a lot more than most of my Pandora games.

My biggest hope for Malifaux is that they release the Avatar version of Pandora and rework her without the fall back trigger.

You could just choose to not activate the trigger

[karn987]

@Natty

Completely fair man, I did speak unfairly. I'm glad your intentions are in the right place and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. My whole point was that the Doppelganger is not critical for her to win and that is was several of your posts made me think you meant. But I think we have this all cleared up now and are more on the same page. I just don't want to confuse new players to a master to think a model is required when its not and vice versa. Basically, it's not a Hollow Waif heh.

Any way, I think we are on the same page now and your 100% entitled to your rant. Heck knows I love to rant, so its all good by me.

Yeah... Pandora is mean =D

[Natty]

I think the point that we got messed up on this discussion is that the comparison between her and ANY other master is a tough one when talking about required models because Pandora is so powerful on her own. She will literally dominate most games by herself, which is something most masters cannot do. They need the help.

I think the doppelganger increases the power of Pandora on scale with how much daydreams increase the power of the Dreamer. It's just that she starts out so powerful, so who cares?

Let's use some completely arbitrary numbers with absolutely no scale or meaning to them:

The doppelganger takes Pandora from a 7 to a 10 and the daydreams take the Dreamer from a 4 to an 7. It's the same increase, but less noticeable because Pandora already starts out so powerful.

So to sum up: Karn is right, the doppelganger is NOT required to win with Pandora. I, however, think that it is an amazing model and Pandora should never leave home without it.

[M_Ruckuss]

Due to time constraints I'm now playing alot of 25ss games. Basic formula of Pandora, a Sorrow, 2 stiched, a primordial magic totem and then either a big hitter or an IS and a 3rd stiched (noone loves these guys more than me!)

PM to give me an extra card and give me a second project emotions (on a cast of 1 less than Pandora-sweet). Useful but not oligatory.

My only failing with my beloved dolls is that models with hunter see straight through their fog. If i position the model behimg a wall, building or wood so their base cannot be seen at al, can these models still hit them, ass they are ignoring cover, or can they not see them because they cannot draw line of sight?

My understanding of this is that the fog obscures lofs- so models more than 3" cannot be seen except by models with hunet, but when your base is completely obscured from view by a terrain feature you are not in such as a wood, building, wall or crate pile u cannot be targeted......

am I right or wrong?

Thanks in advance! McDoogle

[Ratty]

Hunters still need a LOS to their target they just ignore cover modifiers to hit targets they can see and can see twice the distance through obscuring terrain.

[Zwergenkrieger]

Due to time constraints I'm now playing alot of 25ss games. Basic formula of Pandora, a Sorrow, 2 stiched, a primordial magic totem and then either a big hitter or an IS and a 3rd stiched (noone loves these guys more than me!)

What does IS mean?

I´m thinking about running Stichted Togethers with Pandora too in conjunction with a Mature Nephilim. I think that these would form a pretty nice tag team. Stichted Togethers provide obscuring and WP duels, Mature Nephilim is able to charge without LoS (therefore no disadvantage by your own obscuring fog), provides some melee power (against high WP models which Pandora can´t threaten that easy) and his Rip in Half cb trigger works well with Pandoras abilities, especially against crowds of opposing models.

So for 25 SS I´d like to try

Pandora

2 Stichted

Mature Nephilim

Any combination of Sorrows, Insidious Madness and/or Totem.

ZK

Edited February 14, 2011 by Zwergenkrieger

[karn987]

What does IS mean?

I´m thinking about running Stichted Togethers with Pandora too in conjunction with a Mature Nephilim. I think that these would form a pretty nice tag team. Stichted Togethers provide obscuring and WP duels, Mature Nephilim is able to charge without LoS (therefore no disadvantage by your own obscuring fog), provides some melee power (against high WP models which Pandora can´t threaten that easy) and his Rip in Half cb trigger works well with Pandoras abilities, especially against crowds of opposing models.

So for 25 SS I´d like to try

Pandora

2 Stichted

Mature Nephilim

Any combination of Sorrows, Insidious Madness and/or Totem.

ZK

I'm rather sure he meant Insideous Madness or something like that..

But that list will certainly work for you if you are careful about it. The worry comes from the general lack of long range Wp duels besides Pandora. Your already pushing 20ss with the mature and the S's, so that leaves you only 5 for Sorrows or Madness which is just 1 of either of them. I suppose if you know your going up against a blast heavy master, go with the Madness. Otherwise, the Sorrow all the way as it will simply net you more damage and survivability.

But the Mature with Pandora certainly works wonders. The Mature is a huge melee beast and his ability to charge without LoS is great for going through the fog, over buildings, etc. I personally prefer a model a bit more Wp heavy for my melee choice like Coppelius or Kade. But the Mature is certainly no slacker.

Just take care with your Stitched to set up their fog AFTER you do anything you need to through it ;D It happens really often that you will miss-time it and set up the fog before you do whatever you need to through it.

[magicpockets]

I run Pandy with Stitched and there one thing to really watch out for. Creeping Fog is great for a smoke screen ahead of your models, but when it ends at the end of the turn it can really leave you exposed until you get it back up again the turn after. Bear it in mind

[M_Ruckuss]

25ss

Pandora

Jack Daw

2 Stitched

Sorrow

Primordial Magic

Thoughts anyone???

[karn987]

25ss

Pandora

Jack Daw

2 Stitched

Sorrow

Primordial Magic

Thoughts anyone???

Ehh I'm not a fan of Jack Daw because my opponents know how to kill him to easily and I always seem to flip a black Joker with him and watch him turn on me .

It will certainly work if you can keep Jack under control. It does leave you very vulnerable to high Wp models and worse yet, the few models out there that Pandora can't strip their immunity from.

Stitched are great, but their speed is a little lacking when coupled with their short range. I think you should probably drop them for things like Madness, Kade, Candy, Coppelius etc. Get something else in there because right now you have few models worth hiding. Pandora rarely needs to actually hide and Jack Daw ... well he is Jack Daw, that is a giant pain in everyones butt =D But that is how I would do it, and I have my own play styles and likes with Pandora.

The nice thing about Pandora really is that you can play her with just about any crew and she will do well. As long as you know how to control Pandora well, you should be fine. Just watch out for Jack. He is a powerful alley and a dangerous enemy.

[M_Ruckuss]

Ehh I'm not a fan of Jack Daw because my opponents know how to kill him to easily and I always seem to flip a black Joker with him and watch him turn on me .

It will certainly work if you can keep Jack under control. It does leave you very vulnerable to high Wp models and worse yet, the few models out there that Pandora can't strip their immunity from.

Stitched are great, but their speed is a little lacking when coupled with their short range. I think you should probably drop them for things like Madness, Kade, Candy, Coppelius etc. Get something else in there because right now you have few models worth hiding. Pandora rarely needs to actually hide and Jack Daw ... well he is Jack Daw, that is a giant pain in everyones butt =D But that is how I would do it, and I have my own play styles and likes with Pandora.

The nice thing about Pandora really is that you can play her with just about any crew and she will do well. As long as you know how to control Pandora well, you should be fine. Just watch out for Jack. He is a powerful alley and a dangerous enemy.

2 points 1 long, 1 short:

my regular list atm is

25ss

Pandora

2 Stitched

Coppelius

2 Sorrows

This has worked well, but coppelius hasnt worked so well against resses, but this may just be the way i'm playing him.

Ive been tempted to drop both sorrows ang go for a madness and a primordial magic, as unorthodox (or perhaps suicidal) as this may be.

The other option at this size is to drop one stitched and one sorrow and go for 2 madnesses. (I could never drop both, and dont really want to drop eiher stitched, i just LOVE them!)

I would be quicker, and have more woes. My experiences with the madnesses have been all bad (well ive used them twice and failed....) but I think that may well just be me. I'll re-read the tatica on them, and know they are great to stop re-grouping, but (in brief) how do you get the best out of them?

2ND:

Reason I asked about Jack is that I feel I need access to a big hitter other than coppelius. I take it Teddy really need Kade and the other is the hooded rider, but do ou have any other suggestions?

McDoogle

[Zwergenkrieger]

2ND:

Reason I asked about Jack is that I feel I need access to a big hitter other than coppelius. I take it Teddy really need Kade and the other is the hooded rider, but do ou have any other suggestions?

McDoogle

Some posts above we had a short discussion:

I´m thinking about running Stichted Togethers with Pandora too in conjunction with a Mature Nephilim. I think that these would form a pretty nice tag team. Stichted Togethers provide obscuring and WP duels, Mature Nephilim is able to charge without LoS (therefore no disadvantage by your own obscuring fog), provides some melee power (against high WP models which Pandora can´t threaten that easy) and his Rip in Half cb trigger works well with Pandoras abilities, especially against crowds of opposing models.

But the Mature with Pandora certainly works wonders. The Mature is a huge melee beast and his ability to charge without LoS is great for going through the fog, over buildings, etc. I personally prefer a model a bit more Wp heavy for my melee choice like Coppelius or Kade. But the Mature is certainly no slacker.

ZK

[karn987]

2 points 1 long, 1 short:

my regular list atm is

25ss

Pandora

2 Stitched

Coppelius

2 Sorrows

This has worked well, but coppelius hasnt worked so well against resses, but this may just be the way i'm playing him.

Ive been tempted to drop both sorrows ang go for a madness and a primordial magic, as unorthodox (or perhaps suicidal) as this may be.

The other option at this size is to drop one stitched and one sorrow and go for 2 madnesses. (I could never drop both, and dont really want to drop eiher stitched, i just LOVE them!)

I would be quicker, and have more woes. My experiences with the madnesses have been all bad (well ive used them twice and failed....) but I think that may well just be me. I'll re-read the tatica on them, and know they are great to stop re-grouping, but (in brief) how do you get the best out of them?

Really? Not much luck with Coppelius against Ressers? Sure he can't do much with his morale duel stuff, but he can still tool them with damage and make lots of alps off them. Could you go into more detail whats giving you an issue wit him?

But not to leave the rest of your post unattended to.. I would not drop the Sorrows unless you know you are going up against heavy Blast and AE damage. See my Tactica for the entry on Sorrows and give that a good read, there are a lot of reasons to take them. They are truly fantastic models.

But if they are not your style... keep the 2 stitched if you are enjoying them. The important thing is you have FUN (ack the swear word!) and not that your list is 100% tooled to uber pwn every none-1337 n00b out there (I feel dirty just from being near that sarcasm ><). So if you want 2 Stitched, lets stick with that and move on then alright?

25ss

Pandora

Stiched x2 10ss

Lilitu 7ss

Lelu 7ss

Total: 24ss

That is a list I use with a slight tweak to include the Stitched. The bonuses you get with this list are the raw power that the twins bring to any Neverborn list. Their companion activations are crushing if done right. Lilitu can generate several WP duels to feed Pandora as well as lure models to the generally slow ST's. Picture it like this..

"You see a beautiful women walking down the street towards you. Her beauty intoxicates you and you break from your squad, running to the unearthly beauty. As you reach her a chain whip snaps out from behind her and sends you spinning you into the broad chest of the Hulk with horns. The much larger Nephilim grabs your arms and liberates them from your body with little effort. Your fellows cry out in surprise and open fire, the shots barely seeming to hurt the hulking demon and those trying to fire at the beautiful vixen before can't bring themselves to raise their weapons against her. A cloud of fog rolls into view, obscuring the pair and hiding them from view"

The basic idea is that your Lure a model in from way out. You make sure to companion your Lelu so that when you bring it into range, your Lelu can just go right in on it and tear it apart. Depending on what your target is, Lilitu may not even want to hit the model so Irresistible remains at full power. Have Lilitu use Impure Thoughts if needed and let Lelu eat the model whole. Then roll in the Stitched Together and set up their Fog to shield the twins and maybe get in a Gamble your Life if in range. This lets you take out models 1 at a time with little threat to your own models. If Pandora went before hand, she should have Battle Trained he way up field, dumped debuffs on your enemy and come back with the edge of the battle train.

Also remember that Emotionally Exposed from Lilitu will help the Stitched Together in their Gamble and Gamble your Life abilities against targets. So you can help your cute little oogie boogies out with that.

So hopefully by now I have convinced you to give the Twins a try ;D Again my Tactica goes into more detail and Ill be happy to answer any questions you have.

Also don't think I forgot about them, for Insidious Madness I will admit they are a bit hard to get the most out of. My Tactica goes over a lot of the specific details so Ill try to keep it brief like you said. Their speed makes them amazing at capping objectives, so when you have a movement based Strategy they excell at that point. Coupled with Float and Spirit which a high side of average Df of 6, they can be quite a pain in the but to nail down. So skirt the edges of the field and chip away at targets with your ranged attack. Since yo ucan use it against the targets Wp, you kick Emotional Trauma into action and do even more wounds to the target.

I thik the hardest part about them is knowing when to bring them in close. Since Danger to Yourself and PE are amazing abilities. I guess the timing is when you need that kind of support. With Wk 8 and assuming they are hovering around at their 10" shot range, 1 walk puts them into range of both abilitys and Psychosis. So danger to Yourself is basically their melee attack since the ydon't have a specific once. You use it when your in melee or against a target that has something spiffy against ranged attacks. 2 Wds is fantastic and again its a Wp duel so queue Pandora (scary music).

PE is the hard one.. because it includes you its not an instant win debuff and generally you have to sacrifice the usefulness of the Madness for the turn to make use of it. Just be very warry of people with Obey! I had someone obey a Madness with PE up right back into pandora... wasnt fun ^^. But PE gives you that automatic debuff that helps you get around high Wp models and tackle masters easier. Generally if your going to debuff a Master, you will store up a high Card and burn a SS to cast Emotional Trauma for the Negative Flip on Wp duels. In most cases this is more then enough, but bad luck happens and the Black Joker is just mean, so thats where madness comes in. You walk into range and just pop PE. Hopefully you timed it right so that the master either can't get away from it, or has already activated. But at the same time, if this is the first model activating for the turn it can cause havoc because they will panic. If it catches a decent chunk of their crew in it, they are sure as heck going to try and kill it because they know what is coming next... Pandora is going to have a field day with them. Paired with Psychosis and Spirit, these guys have a decent chance of surviving whatever is going to activate to kill them.

So hopefully that all helps!

2ND:

Reason I asked about Jack is that I feel I need access to a big hitter other than coppelius. I take it Teddy really need Kade and the other is the hooded rider, but do ou have any other suggestions?

McDoogle

Eh I actually don't like Teddy with Kade. I don't like the whole My Bear thing, never had much luck with it. But as for a big hitter, Teddy can be fine but he is a bit slow and basically needs to stay out of LoS till he is close. His spell that can give him Flight is a great tool for this.

The Hooded Rider is just a great model and can really deal out a lot of damage. With his (I think it is called) Mounted Combat action, he can hit and run and basically harrass a flank while Pandora takes the center. Kade is cheap, deadly, and a huge pain in the ass for many people to deal with. Ht 1 means he can easily hide behind most terrain pieces and SweatBreads Trigger really bumps up his damage and the slow from it is just icing on the cake.

Beyond them you really can take any melee monster from Neverborn and get good function out of them. As mentioned the Mature Nephilim is very lethal, but don't forget about Lelu and Lilitu (who i talked a lot about above). There is always Bad Juju who can be a huge surprise to people who forget about him. Just put the mini off to the side and people very quickly forget he is there once Pandora starts tearing into things. You could always go with some of hte Mercs that we can take as well.

I guess... what do you want your big hitter to do? You do not need to have one, it is just useful to have the other type of damage. So don't feel forced into having one. But my favorites are in order from personal favorite down: Lelu, Kade, Coppelius.

[M_Ruckuss]

Thanks for the speedy reply Karn, have read and will go over with tactica and books at the weekend, and will replu after I have mused... Many thanks as always

edit:when I say speedy I mean timely and epic in proportion, cheers