Hamelin, the Plagued problems/questions/ whaaaa?

[Sandwich]

Ancient and misplayed.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Sandwich

[tenabrae]

I think you missed half the combo.

Rats activate

Rat catcher moves up and slays rats with slaughter rats, is healed by them dying and spawns new rats

Rats activate

--

If you have your rats in a couple of groups (more than 4" apart so they don't all activate together) and a couple of rat catchers you can do some shennanigans.

[Sandwich]

Please elaborate on any shenanigans as I clearly have missed many.

[tenabrae]

For example

Rat group A moves forward

Rat catcher X moves forward and kill/resses them

Rat Group A moves again

Rat catcher Y moves and kills/resses rat group A

Rat group A moves again

With multiple rat groups you can mix this up a bit (and of course use hammy as another rat respawner except he can't kill them

Nix also heals off any failed duel nearby, having your rats nibble at him and fail is a great way to keep him alive.

It really kinda plays itself once you have the basics.

[Sandwich]

I really need more games with him, I suppose.

I'll try this kill tactic, but is there any other way to be effective?

[tenabrae]

The insignificant/inevitable truth combo locks down their most dangerous model, profit !

[Sandwich]

That I did learn.

You seem to be knowledgable.

So how the hell do you compensate for an absolute starvation of cards?

[tenabrae]

You kinda hope it doesn't come up ?

Generally you'll out-activate the opponent if you're careful (more models, multiple activations) so if you can get Nix in early to screw up their turn then hold back the important stuff till they've finished throwing themselves at the horde of rats you can generally pull off some shiftiness with hammy.

Another trick with the rats is that even though the enemy can ignore them for movement, if you put a bunch of them in the way the enemy still can't stop on top of a rat model so you can mess with their movement, especially the slower spellcasting masters.

You can also try hitting them with Abandon from your free stolen to sap their Wp for hammy to capitalise on, and also make them drop cards (they'll usually want to once they figure out how bad it is to be insig against hammy and all the bullies)

Edited October 15, 2010 by tenabrae

[Sandwich]

See that was the problem I had.

I just did not have the cards needed to really do anything.

The rat's have a cb of 4, so there's no real cheating needed.

Nix has a cb of 6 and a Df of 5, and is a spirit, so I tried to get them to burn cards to kill him, but it's easier to just kill Hamelin.

I mean, I guess using my master to flee the entire game is good, because I have no cards... But I don't know. :/

And what big stuff am I holding back?

I have Nix, a ton of rats, two catchers, and Hamelin.

Do you take other models?

//

I can see how that would work, but nearly all caster masters have AoE and well... Rats are quite flammable.

/

All they have to do is discard two cards and the effect is ignored and I lose a Stolen.

From the way I've been playing thus far, and have seen no ruling against, I gain no cards from my Opponent discarding, so that's not really all too useful, as Hamelin can only summon one per turn, which then leaves me vulnerable if I sack it instead of save it for his inevitable death.

[Natty]

Remember that the Stolen turns into a rat whenever it is killed OR sacrificed. So unlike every other model, you can sacrifice it and still get a rat. Early game I would recommend summoning the stolen, then sacrificing it, drawing two cards. After a couple turns you want to stop doing that because you will need Hamelins actions for other stuff and the Stolen around to save Hamelin in case of death, but in those first couple turns your hand should look like this:

Draw 6 cards in draw phase.

Draw 1 card from totem.

Draw 2 cards by sacrificing Stolen (and get a rat)

Draw any cards opponents use (probably 0)

Discard 3 worst cards.

Draw 1 card from totem.

Draw 2 cards by sacrificing Stolen (and get a rat)

Draw any cards opponents use (maybe 0)

So at turn 2, which is when the fighting starts, you should have 2 more rats than you started with and the best cards out of the minimum of 12 that you have drawn.

------------------

Also remember that in addition to producing a rat, sacrificing the stolen lets Nix take a (0) action.

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In addition, Nix can, in the early games when you don't want him too far ahead of everything, attack your rats and hope for the trigger to go off. Most likely you won't get anything for this because you wont want to use cards, but there is always a chance that it will happen on its own and you aren't using all of Nix's actions in the first turn or two anyway. If you kill a rat it just comes back and maybe you have a small chance of doing no damage and getting a free rat.

[Natty]

Oh, and I forgot to mention the ability the rats have to take a wound and move into base contact with another rat. This ability is amazing! You don't care if the rats die so going from 2 wounds to 1 doesn't matter. Once you have one rat in base contact or close to an enemy, all of your rats can get a free ride over there and still attack with their action.

[tenabrae]

You just have to manage it so the rat catchers/hamelin are within 6".

Crews that can mass-move stuff (nephilim are nasty for this with lilly's earthquake and mature nephs wing buffet) will nibble your mice good and proper.

[Wodschow]

Okay, haven't played him, but I've had some thoughts on him:

I think I'd bring alot of Desperate Mercenaries in the starting crew and keep them close to Hamelin and have them turn into Rats and Ratcatchers later on.

Also Ratcathers are Vermin, so killing Rats not only gives the Rats an extra activation it also heals the Ratcatcher.. The combo is REALLY resilient.

I think the Wretch is supposed to be a Totem and not a Nightmare.

I don't think it's a bad idea to start with a Stolen or two either, so useful for many of Hamelins abilities as they still summon rats even when sacrificed - so if you intend to sacrifice rats anyway those are cheaper.

Rats can be fast with the right shenanigans, but Ratcatchers are pretty slow, so Obedience them to charge forward might be a good idea (remember Gorge on Pain while doing so).

Even though Rats have low Cb they can get a positive twist on both attacks and damage making it quite decent.

Just some incoherent thoughts.

[izikial]

All of what has been said so far is good. just some of my thoughts.

sadly stolen are unique (i think) so you can only start with one, but i always do, as it alows you to sacrifice him and then the same turn summon anothere one as a death shield,

i havnt played any games with him yet, but my plan was to move up in 2 groups.

group A would be

5(ish) rats

nix

maybe a rat catcher

group b would be

hamlin

1/2 dsperat mercs

a stolen

a wretch

now i havnt worked out points for this, this is just guide lines, and i since have gone of hamlin, but basicly group A would move up being herded by nix, doing all the reactivating rat shinanigans with the rat catcher, and spearding blight (not focusing attacks) unless against some one like rezzers wear you need to cut of the head. wial hamlin uses stolen and desperat mercs as a resource for his spells and ability's wial making everything he can insignificant, (hamlin is a beast in the right situation) he can esaley lock down the enamys big guy or cut through a week hord buy making them insig and then either making them target him or using the aura spell, then when the rat suicide squad dies out (should take a few turns), or you lock down the big guys with hamlin, move on to using bleeding desieas (from stolen, hamlin, wretch, rat catcher and nix) against all the blighted stuff your rats attacked to mop them up. also neg flips are your freind, you realy want to make the enemys negativ any way you can (nix is good for this), the down side is they dont get to play a card so you dont draw one, but if the enemy is at a neg defence then even if all you have in hand is a 5 for a spell, you might be able to win with it, and the cb 4 rats arnt so bad when the enamy cant cheat fate

as i say just how i was going to do it, but i really dont like the fluff around new hamlin (old hamlin was cool), he got beaten by a piterful gardener, and i finde it really hard to play as some one who i dont like the story for.

[Teal]

Stolen are actually not Unique. I believe it was Sketch who officially said that that was a typo.

I have to admit, in the three or so games that I've played with him, he has been an absolute powerhouse. Understand the Soulless or his Pipes trigger and then Inevitable Truth neutralizes their master, usually, and the combination of Fate is Meaningless and his Black Staff generally allows him to one shot kill one model per turn.

Rats low Cb is mitigated by the fact that with several rat catchers you can have so many activations (as described earlier in the thread), and the fact that they're always striking on a plus due to Impetuous.

I never had a problem with his cards, as you should always have at least an even number in your hand as your opponent (every time they cheat fate you can draw a card, so as long as you don't cheat more than they do you're fine) and if there is a king or other high card on top of my deck I've seen opponents opt to not cheat as they were scared of me drawing too good of a hand.

[izikial]

stolen arnt unique! realy? thats awasom, my attention has been grabed again by mister plauged

[Kabooomfield]

I think I'd bring alot of Desperate Mercenaries in the starting crew and keep them close to Hamelin and have them turn into Rats and Ratcatchers later on.

And have nix reverse the damage on thier guns to a nasty 4/3/2.

Pew-pew-pew.

[Sandwich]

What on earth does Wyrd consider Played?

Specifically speaking; I'm talking about The Void.

[izikial]

played is when you cheat fate, one of the cards in your hand goes into play. everything else like discard is not being played as they never enter play.

[Sezar]

I wouldn't be that sure about it, as when you are forced to discard some from your Control Hand, you are in fact playing with them, that is, they are being used as en effect from the game, it's not just like the discard you do at the end of the turn with those cards you don't want. Forcing an opponent to discard some of their Control Hand cards affects the game in such a way that in fact you are playing with them.

Or at least that is my impression with it. Not that I'm saying a Hamelin player should draw cards this way, but I wouldn't be much surprised if it was officially ruled in that way.:hmmmm:

[Wodschow]

I'm fairly certain that cheating fate is currently the only way to play cards.

Page 33 in Book1 - Using Cards:

The only entry that mentions 'playing' is the one about Cheating Fate.

[icemantis99]

Wodschow is correct. While yes, you are "playing" with the cards in the dictionary sense no matter what you do, as it is a card-based game, you are not "playing" discarded cards in the game sense.

[izikial]

cheating fate: PLAYING a control card from your hand to replace the fate card in play is called cheatign fate. all models can cheat fate but only when the rules allow them to do so. The PLAYED control card becomes the new fate card

pg 33

discarding:discarding a card MOVES it into your discard pile, face up, without applying it value or suit

pg 33

as you can see the rules for discarding at no point mention plaing it, wear as they do for cheating fate, the discared card at not point enters play it goes straight from hand to discard pile and never has any effect on the game.

[Sezar]

Yeah, I see you're both right on it. I guess then Hamelin will keep having a hard time drawing cards unless his players find a clever and constant tactic to alleviate The Void somehow...

[Sandwich]

If this is the case then Hamelin needs a better method to recieve cards.

I am far too starved for cards, even if I use his Totem and spend an AP towards killing something for one.

I really hope this is fixed in the errata.