Showgirl Tactica

[MrNybbles]

Update 2011-02-23

Renamed section Most Talents don't require Line of Sight to Talents, Spells, Triggers, and Line of Sight.

Corrected the information on the Performer's Mesmerizing & Poison Gift being attacks and therefor needing Line of Sight. Thanks to WUWU for bringing that up, and to Wodschow for amoral support.

One tiny issue remains and that is the Performer's Poison Gift doesn't seem to fall under the category of an attack when you target your own models. You can clearly target your own models, but because your models are not enemy models, does not require a resist duel, and is not an or it does not seem to fall under the errata's definition of an Attack. In those cases you do not need LoS. Weird. :wallbash:

[WUWU]

This is something I was just thinking of as well, MrNybbles. In the Pandora thread that sparked this discussion I just listed another handful of abilities that target but are not attacks.

I really hope the rulings on this get cleaned up soon.

:banghead: is right

[Sholto]

Another point that came up in my last game - not sure if you covered it in the tactica.

I had a Mannequin Linked to Cassandra, and I needed some extra movement out of Cassandra. I used Tricks of the Trade to give Cassandra :masks, and then used (0) Sword Style. Then, when Cassandra moved, she hit the Mannequin for an automatic 4" of extra movement. She did it twice, covering 18" of the table and then whacked the Ice Gamin. Because of Link the Mannequin moved into base contact with her each move, ready for another hit with the sword And because of Armour and Object, two hits = 2 wds even if Cassandra gets a Severe damage flip.

This is worth bearing in mind, especially for Cassandra's Grand Finale action. Can you imagine the look on your opponent's face as she moves 27" across the table after the game ends?

[LoboStele]

Another point that came up in my last game - not sure if you covered it in the tactica.

I had a Mannequin Linked to Cassandra, and I needed some extra movement out of Cassandra. I used Tricks of the Trade to give Cassandra :masks, and then used (0) Sword Style. Then, when Cassandra moved, she hit the Mannequin for an automatic 4" of extra movement. She did it twice, covering 18" of the table and then whacked the Ice Gamin. Because of Link the Mannequin moved into base contact with her each move, ready for another hit with the sword And because of Armour and Object, two hits = 2 wds even if Cassandra gets a Severe damage flip.

This is worth bearing in mind, especially for Cassandra's Grand Finale action. Can you imagine the look on your opponent's face as she moves 27" across the table after the game ends?

Ha! Nice! Would even work with the Coryphee's, and without having the difficulty of casting Tricks of the Trade. I'll have to remember this one for moving the Coryphee's around. There's plenty of times where I have a Mannequin linked to them to hopefully get off Mirrors, but it doesn't do much otherwise. Would make snagging the corners for Power Ritual MUCH easier.

[WUWU]

How are you guys Linking to Cassandra? In my experience she's usually far too mobile for the dummy to reliably get in base contact.

Remember, you can't Link to her in the first two turns unless Cassandra first makes an attack.

[Sholto]

Here's how my games with Colette shape up. She sits at the centre of a web, like some beautiful spider with an interesting hat. The Performers spread out to the sides, and are basically just points 18" away that she can jump to. The Coryphee and Cassandra all stay within 18" as well, usually more forward than the Performers. Colette sits in the middle and shifts them around like cards at a craps table, pulling them out of trouble or positioning them to strike an exposed enemy model. That means Cassandra is often being pulled back to the middle, where she can link up with one of the Mannequins.

Or, you could just have her Bash something and cheat it down for 0 damage.

[MrNybbles]

... and Sholto finds yet another reason for people to hate the Showgirls.

Once Celebrity is no longer active you can get Cassandra to really move. There is a small chance that this is the intended mechanics for how Celebrity works, to keep Cassandra from being too powerful on turn one, but if it is then it is probably the most misunderstood and overlooked balancing issues in the game.

Anyways, V2 Pandora can cast Dementia on herself and be pushed an additional 4" when ever she does her 3" walk, allowing her to move up to 14" and still have a zero-action left over. People think of this as being kinda cheesy, and Cassandra and Coryphee Duet are already very mobile. It's still interesting though.

@WUWU: If you don't need Cassandra to take an objective on turn one then this can be done, for example, to move from cover to cover to keep out of Nino's line of sight. However, for the most part I don't link Mannequins to Cassandra. You can also link Mannequins to a Coryphee Duet and at some point have Cassandra use Dance Partner or just have them meet up at some point.

[Thunder_God]

If I read it right, Cassandra can just (0)Sword Dance and walk 3 times due to Nimble and make a Strike during each of those moves, right? So unless you want to teleport her before she activates, she really doesn't give up all that much in order to do this.

[Wodschow]

Anyways, V2 Pandora can cast Dementia on herself and be pushed an additional 4" when ever she does her 3" walk, allowing her to move up to 14" and still have a zero-action left over.

Or.. You could have your totem cast Dementia on Pandora and have her cast spells on herself and resist them for 1" more than a Walk netting her a total of 24" before (0) actions - and probably burning her entire hand, but whatever (it's useful for the Casting Expert AP anyway which she can't use for Walking).

Also.. Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but killing your own Performer makes you able to give reactivate to any Showgirl, for instance the Duet which is then in turn able to grab the Treasure in a Treasure Hunt on turn one and bring it all the way back to your deployment zone.

[tadaka]

Nice idea on that wod. Not sure how often i would use that trick but for some thing like treasure hunt it could certainly be worth killing one for a first turn grab.

[MrNybbles]

Also.. Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but killing your own Performer makes you able to give reactivate to any Showgirl, for instance the Duet which is then in turn able to grab the Treasure in a Treasure Hunt on turn one and bring it all the way back to your deployment zone.

I do remember killing Performers coming up before because I checked their Irresistible ability and friendly models are not subject to it.

In my experience my opponents will go ahead and kill the Performer for me with no regard for giving another Showgirl reactivate, unless they have a better target to attack. With the Coryphee Duet's Pass Through ability they can just move through a couple of Performers and hide behind them. Once a Performer is killed by your opponent you give the Coryphee Duet reactivate. If not then your opponent still has two Performer's to deal with, and a Coryphee Duet running off with an objective.

For the most part you should always have better options than to kill your own Performer.

Last night I actually Grabbed my opponent's Treasure counter with Cassandra with the first activation of the game, then after he started ganging up on her had Colette use Illusionist to switch places with Cassandra, then picked up the Treasure counter. Von Schill's crew tends to not do well in melee with their low Df and Ca stats. However, the Performer's debuffs are Wp based which Schill's crew does well with defending against.

In hindsight I'm surprised he didn't deploy his Trapper near his Treasure counter. I'll need to read it's rules for deployment later to see if there is a reason for this.

[Scurry]

it cant be within 12" of an enemy model or known objective

[MrNybbles]

it cant be within 12" of an enemy model or known objective

I just checked the rule on this and you are correct, and he can't even deploy near my objectives either. I'll remember this for next time because my Strategy was A line in the Sand and he deployed the Trapper around 6" to 8" from two of the dynamite markers near the table edge. The reason for deploying there had to do with a bunker terrain we had placed on the table and he used that for cover.

[Sholto]

I am loving the Hypnotic Movements trigger on the Coryphee. With Perfect Performance you can guarantee the :masks you need on Cb. As soon as you get the trigger off, cast Blinding on the same target. With the target on a you can cheat up the Cast and try for Severe damage. If you are hitting an enemy Master, use a Soulstone to kick it even higher if need be.

I did this in a game recently where I had a Performer nearby. I got the Severe damage on Rasputina without even using a Soulstone, and that Paralysed her. Then the Performer stepped up and gave her Poison 4 Combined with the damage from Blinding, you're doing 10 damage before that model can do anything again!

[ringsnake]

I did a forum search on the words "ronin" and "showgirl" and didn't turn up anything. I'm surprised no one has posted about this dumb trick.

Hire Du Bois and a Ronin for your crew, and give yourself a reserve of eight soulstones. Nothing else matters, but you might want a Student of Conflict for your other merc choice. The way I read the rules this prevents you from taking Johan though. Two mercs only, even if they're discounted in cost, right?

You'll want to do this on turn one. I like this because with my luck I always end up with a control hand full of garbage.

Du Bois' first activation

(0) Artificial Soulstone burned for Soulstone Infusion to get reactivate

(1) Discard two cards to get a soulstone from soulstone manipulation.

(1) Summon a Ronin for 5 soulstones (you now have four left)

(If you used a Student to give her fast she can walk before summoning)

Du Bois' Second Activation

(1) Discard two cards to get a soulstone from soulstone manipulation.

(1) Summon a Ronin for 5 soulstones (you now have none left)

End result. You get three ronin (granted two are slow on turn one) for a cost of fourteen soulstones. Additionally, you can sacrifice ronin to get back two soulstones. Either to cast DuBois' spells, or with three more soulstones recreate a new ronin instead of fooling about with healing flips.

I like this, because from my (very limited) experience with this faction damage output and solid ranged attacks that aren't spells aren't a part of what the showgirls bring. Ronin do more raw damage than any of the showgirl model's non-spell attacks, if lacking in fancy triggers.

If things really go your way you can turn Collette into a Ronin factory when she and her doves kills things with Magician's Duel. A Soulstone Miner might also be worth considering if you're willing to give up a Performer to get it.

Edited March 4, 2011 by ringsnake

[LoboStele]

For the total of 14 SS though....I would much rather have the Coryphees. And having Colette with no SS at the end of Turn 1 is just ASKING to get Alpha striked by your opponent.

Having played about 40+ games with Colette now, I have been seeing almost no reason to run ANY non-Showgirls in the crew. Even Johan I tend to leave out. Slaughter is the only Strat I have any problem with, and played properly/smartly, I can still pull it off against just about any opposing crew. But if it's a tournament setting, and I get Slaughter, that's what I have Ramos or Rasputina's crews for. Keep the Showgirls for high-movement Strats.

[MrNybbles]

@Sholto: I've always wanted to use the Performer's Poison Gift for that, but never got the chance. I'm glad to hear that it is more than just a theory now.

I did a forum search on the words "ronin" and "showgirl" and didn't turn up anything. I'm surprised no one has posted about this dumb trick.

Actually it has come up in discussions before. I also refer to it as a 'Ronin Factory.'

Hire Du Bois and a Ronin for your crew, and give yourself a reserve of eight soulstones. Nothing else matters, but you might want a Student of Conflict for your other merc choice.

The Student of Conflict is an interesting choice, though using the Mechanical Doves are always going to be a solid choice because of how they work with the Showgirls and because Colette can have up to 3 of them in play, they are the only cheap models that are part of Colette's crew (the cheapest actual Showgirl being a hefty 6ss, and Colette can summon new ones making them easily expendable. In fact their "Soulstone Powered" ability makes you want to expend them at times.

My theory on using the Student of Conflict is on turn 1 he activates first, (possibly uses Companion(Master)), Colette uses her Artificial Soulstone on (0) Soulstone Infusion to gain reactivate leaving her with 3AP. She then uses (1) Soulstone Manipulation to gain a Soulstone, (1) on Disappearing Act on the Student of Conflict to transport him (this is referred to as an APC technique, APC standing for Armored Personnel Carrier) and the last AP on (1) Illusionist to switch places with either Cassandra or Coryphee Duet who is engaged with an enemy.

During Colette's second activation she has (3) AP to use to cast Magician's Duel, Soulstone Manipulation, etc., and her zero-action can be used to summon a Mechanical Dove who may activate immediately thanks to Colette's Trick of the Hat and has 1 AP to either Detonate Soulstone or cast Colette's Magician's Duel via Magical Extension. If the Mechanical Dove lives after your opponent's next activation then another Showgirl can use it as a Soulstone to do anything.

If the Mechanical Dove remains in play when the Student of Conflict is unburried then the Student of Conflict can't connect to Colette and will then cease to exist. When the Student of Conflict is unburied remember to place it in base contact with Colette. If your opponent kills it (I suggest choosing it or a Mechanical Dove for the Scheme Framed for Murder), then you can freely summon Mechanical Doves.

In a friendly game of Malifaux I'd like to do this sometime for no other reason than it seems like a fun idea.

@@TODO: Check against new "Malifaux: Rules Manual" to make sure you can bring in a new totem while another one is buried. This WAS legal in the old rules.

The way I read the rules this prevents you from taking Johan though. Two mercs only, even if they're discounted in cost, right?

Incorrect. Colette has the ability "Union Labor" which allows her to hire M&SU Members from any faction at no additional cost. In other words she could hire Johan if he didn't have the Mercenary characteristic. Just like hiring the Performer, Johan is being hired by a rule other than the Mercenary rule so he doesn't count toward this limit.

This is similar to Freikorps Mercenary rule which prevents the hiring of non-Freikorps Mercenaries when they are in a crew. However, if Von Schill is leading your crew then Mercenary models like Johan and Hans can be hired by his crew because they are hired in-faction, not as Mercenaries.

@@TODO: Check against new "Malifaux: Rules Manual."

<<BEGIN EDIT>>

In the new Rules Manual it seems very clearly written that you have a limit of 2 models with the Mercenary characteristic when hired from a faction other than the one the player has chosen. Unless this gets changed in a future errata, (and I think this change was intentional), then you are correct, Johan counts against the 2 Mercenary limit.

<<END EDIT>>

You'll want to do this on turn one. I like this because with my luck I always end up with a control hand full of garbage.

In general when I draw 6 cards I tend to draw between 1 and 3 cards that are 10 or higher. Low Tomes cards are not bad either and I will sometimes keep them just to trigger Colette's A Blinding Flash trigger. The rest are usually Soulstone Manipulation fodder.

Colette has this wonderful way of making crummy hands not really crummy at all. However, when I play other crews I do suffer from Soulstone Manipulation withdrawal.

Du Bois' first activation

(0) Artificial Soulstone burned for Soulstone Infusion to get reactivate

(1) Discard two cards to get a soulstone from soulstone manipulation.

(1) Summon a Ronin for 5 soulstones (you now have four left)

(If you used a Student to give her fast she can walk before summoning)

Cassandra has the Use Soulstone ability and Coryphee Duet can gain it as a zero-action making them capable of summining Ronin as well. To me they are generally better choices for summoning a Ronin because all of them specialize in making Melee Strikes and would be effective against mostly the same type of models. The Ronin's Daisho ignores Armor, gives your Damage Flips +:fate, and they are +1 Melee Experts making them great for dropping on the heads of Freikorps Mercenaries and several others.

Du Bois' Second Activation

(1) Discard two cards to get a soulstone from soulstone manipulation.

(1) Summon a Ronin for 5 soulstones (you now have none left)

If you want to keep Colette in a support roll and out of combat during most of the game then this is viable if you use Cassandra or Coryphee Duet to do the summoning instead.

End result. You get three ronin (granted two are slow on turn one) for a cost of fourteen soulstones.

Incorrect. The rule about summoned models gaining slow only applies if they activate during the turn they were summoned.

Malifaux: Rules Manual, <Magic, p.55>

A Summoned model may activate during the turn it was summoned, but receives Slow (see p. 34).

This is how the rules for Summoning anything has worked since the first printing of the first rulebook. It is frequently read, and when summoning comes up people don't go back and reread the rules but try to remember it off the top of their head and get the nuances of summoning wrong. This happens to almost everyone and is actually a big deal with Leveticus and the Hollow Waifs because like the Ronin they are summoned during the closing phase of the turn which is ending and never get to activate that turn so they can never have Slow inflicted. This is similar to Summoning Sickness works in Magic, The Gathering.

6ss Ronin hired as a Mercenary.

5ss Summoned Ronin.

5ss Summoned Ronin.

Total cost: 16 Soulstones.

I don't understand how you arrived at a cost of 14 Soulstones. If you don't count the initial cost of hiring the Ronin as a Mercenary then the total cost is 10 Soulstones instead of 16.

Additionally, you can sacrifice ronin to get back two soulstones. Either to cast DuBois' spells, or with three more soulstones recreate a new ronin instead of fooling about with healing flips.

I've actually used a similar Recycling mechanic with the Mechanical Doves. I had 2 Doves, one of which got 2 wounds inflicted after it had activated so when I activated Colette a second time I sacrificed the Mechanical Dove as part of the cost of Summoning a Mechanical Dove. The Ronin's Hard to Kill ability makes this situation somewhat likely.

I like this, because from my (very limited) experience with this faction damage output and solid ranged attacks that aren't spells aren't a part of what the showgirls bring. Ronin do more raw damage than any of the showgirl model's non-spell attacks, if lacking in fancy triggers.

I consider the damages of 2/3/4 and 2/3/5 to both be about average. (If you look through the original rulebook (we usually call it Book 1) and look at the damage of most of the guild Masters and non-totem Minions these two stats show up a lot. However, a lot of Guild models have the Critical Strike trigger to boost this damage.

To me the big deal with the Ronin is that they would ignore armor, have +1 Melee Expert, and your opponent may not expect you to be dropping Ronin on them, possibly surrounding a model preventing it from being able to disengage from melee. You can do this to most models without abilities and characteristics such as Spirit, Floating, Flying, etc. with as few as 3 models.

If things really go your way you can turn Collette into a Ronin factory when she and her doves kills things with Magician's Duel. A Soulstone Miner might also be worth considering if you're willing to give up a Performer to get it.

To me the Soulstone Miner fills an interesting roll of being able to Tunnel on turn 1, moving a total of (5" walk + 8" tunneling) 13" without being able to be harmed in any way, then ambushing someone on a following turn.

With a Cb of 6, average damage, and as a zero-action gaining (+2) Melee Master, it can be a nightmare. However, Cassandra and Coryphee Duet have Cb 7 and work with the Showgirl mechanics and fill the same roll.

In my opinion if you don't want a debuffer (Performer) and an expendable (Mannequin) then this is a viable option. However, with Colette's crew I do recommend keeping a Soulstone cache of at least 5 to start with.

You have some interesting ideas and I wish you luck with your future games. Please don't take me suggesting something different as saying "don't do that" but more as a recommendation. Colette, for example, may end up being your best or only choice for summoning a Ronin.

@Anyone Interested in the Showgirls Tactica: My LGS just got the Malifaux: Rules Manual in today and I bought a copy. I will hopefully have the next version of the Tactica up within two weeks. (Yes, I'm padding my schedule, though I've become quite busy recently). Feel free to keep posting questions, corrections, comments, or anything remotely related during this time. Other people will also sometimes replay with something helpful as well. I'll edit this post a little as I figure out where the old & new rules coincide and differ.

Edited March 5, 2011 by MrNybbles

[Wombats]

This could use a sticky.

[Sholto]

This could use a sticky.

Seconded.

[MrNybbles]

My web browser crashed last night so this didn't get posted.

I'm planning on starting a new Showgirls: Tactica thread for the next one which will reference and comply with the new Malifaux: Rules Manual rules.

If the new Tactica replaced this one then someone new to the game reading through the thread might trip over some old-rules vs new-rules stuff.

In the original rules you couldn't attack your own master which has been removed, but that was changed in an errata and somone asked about that on page 1 of this thread. On page 2 of this thread Wodschow also posted about hiring Johan via Colette's Union Labor ability instead of as a mercenary which has been changed in the new rules now.

I will likely rename this thread "Showgirl Tactica (Pre-Rules Manual)" or something similar.

[Sholto]

The Mechanical Doves still aren't released yet in the UK. If these come out from GW before then, I might pick them up:-

[MrNybbles]

Those are some scary (though nicely sculpted and painted) birds. Definitely something that would give Alfred Hitchcock the creeps.

From what I was told at my LGS they are currently available for order and hopefully I'll have them in tomorrow.

[Fulgrima]

They have arrived at my LGS in Birmingham so are popping up now

[WUWU]

Something I just noticed in the new rulebook that hurts Colette a bit:

edit: reviewing. Maybe be wrong about this. Was regarding additional requirements of casting a spell, such as discarding soulstones. See page 51-53

Edited March 11, 2011 by WUWU

[MrNybbles]

@WUWU: If you are referring to something such as a spell requiring Colette to discard a Soulstone when her Soulstone pool is empty, but she hasn't used Artificial Soulstone yet, then she can still cast the spell. The reason for this is because her abilities only require her to "Discard one Soulstone" which the Artificial Soulstone allows her to do (except in the case of summoning a model).

Artificial Soulstone: "The first Soulstone this model discards each turn is not deducted from its Crew's Soulstone Pool."

To put it in the most concisely convoluted way possible:

Artificial Soulstone = You don't need to have any Soulstones in your Soulstone pool to discard one Soulstone, unless you want to summon something.

I'm sure I've seen this question asked by someone else not too long ago about this so it does puzzle people sometimes. Needs a reminder entry in the Tactica.

I'm a bit concerned about the new rules on Replace. If Coryphee A has not activated and Coryphee B used Dance Together, how do the zero-actions carry over? They are not addressed, only General AP and Specific AP. If zero actions such as (+1) Instinctual and (+2) Subconscious Actions are Specific AP then we have rules for them, but zero-actions are actions that don't take any AP so the rules for carrying over Specific AP might not apply.

It kinda does look like from the description of specific AP abilities that grant additional AP that zero-actions are treated as a type of Specific AP. There's a good chance that I'm missing some explanation in the rulebook somewhere.