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The Dreamer/LCB is overpowered


Raintar

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It seems like your dead set in your opinion and your not even entertaining anything but it. So fine, your entitled to your opinion but I think your wrong. I've played them and against them quite a lot and I've seen them obliterated before as well as them dominate.

A smart opponent can deal with them or at the very least make them manageable. I've tried to explain that spacing is the key and that they can be taken on if your careful about it. I see what your saying, but I think your just over-reacting.

Your case for them requires 5+ Alps which is 15ss+. Thats a massive investment. There are some models that are just plain nasty when you spam them, but that in an of it's self does not make a model broken by any means. I do think, now that the beta test is over, that they probably should have been rare 3 or 4 because at that number, this is more then manageable.

But, for now at least, I'm done trying to convince you. I'll make the same suggestion to you as I made to Raintar, play them and against them more. Hopefully you'll see what I'm saying as you get more experience with them.

Edited by karn987
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It seems like your dead set in your opinion and your not even entertaining anything but it. So fine, your entitled to your opinion but I think your wrong. I've played them and against them quite a lot and I've seen them obliterated before as well as them dominate.

A smart opponent can deal with them or at the very least make them manageable. I've tried to explain that spacing is the key and that they can be taken on if your careful about it. I see what your saying, but I think your just over-reacting. But, for now at least, I'm done trying to convince you. I'll make the same suggestion to you as I made to Raintar, play them and against them more. Hopefully you'll see what I'm saying as you get more experience with them.

The issue i have with spaceing is that it makes you weak and leaves your amry voable to LCB direct attack since your models are spread out, now in a shooting based list that might be okay but in other lists that will not really help it just makes you die slower and once again gives your opponet an advatage that will be game changing.

Were as a player might be equly able to spread out and add models that will have effects when they die, the LCB player can grow his tatics to counter those like i said place a model outside of shatter distance and so forth.

My major argument is that its one thing to have a model this powerful in the game its another to have set a persadent of Cuddling weaker models before hand and comming out with even more powerful models.

The woes are completly cuddled and incready hard to use now, and they had a fraction of the alps power. But then again alps would not be that bad if it was not for the dreamer, placeing the models in prime locations where as the woes had to be in combat range and had to do something to cause the wounds where as the alps just have to stand there. I just did not have much fun activating models and having them die and not being able to use anything or have any kind of plans in the game.

Its just the kind of lists that all players will have to get used to playing and will most likely see 2 or 3 of them at each turny in the top ranking.

The thing that gets me ius the no real defence vs damage, you get 6 wounds on one model and there is nothing you can do about exept try and win a max - flip. It seems unfair that its an attack that there is no dfence for since it happens when you activate a model.

Edited by TimeLapse
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I haven't played them, but the Alps seem a bit overpowered, a little moreso with LCB.

The reason I see them being tough to fight is, against LCB as Karn mentioned earlier clumping up is a good defense. Against Alps though spreading out seems key. So I see how that could leave you in a sticky situation. I don't see this being the next OMG cuddle PLEASE WYRD thing though, what you have to remember is that, the new masters are powerful yes, but the old masters have new models to add to their crews. Like any game with collectible pieces, getting more options will make your Crews able to deal with more situations. Lillith with just her Book 1 models might not be well-equipped to handle LCB and his alpha strike, but what if you have Nekima there to help you grow strong units? Or Lilitu to lure LCB int a vulnerable position?

Neverborn in general seem very powerful in the 2nd book, but if anything needs to be cuddled it'll be Lilitu, not Alps or LCB I think.

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Um, right. I only need the gist of what timelapse is saying to respond to this. You're using the viktorias as an example here? Ooo-Kaay. So, the smother thing gives you - a million flips on the initial flip, but that doesn't pass over to soulstones, so flipping a 5 saves you from that, and then the only thing you need to worry about is exhaustion, and that only matters if they've wrapped all of them around one model. That said - whichever viktoria isn't in gets a free charge and then proceeds to murder the entire pack. 4 Df and 3Wd, your min kills them, and your melee range puts you outside of exhaustion.

LCB is, and always will be, a total glass-cannon. Sure - whatever he spawns on dies, but McMorning one-shots him, So does levi. Any solid melee based master can tear him apart. He's DF4 Wd10. He's probably the squishest master in the game, as anybody else with those stats has some kind of bizzare escape mechanism involved. He just takes it to the face. Furthermore - due to the way he has to spawn things, it's sooooo easy to out-activate him early game. Goad the dreamers activations, and then he has the choice of either spawning stuff to keep up with you, or not, and as soon as he elects to not while you have models in range of doing things, you've got free reign to do as you please to him. If he spawns things further up the board, then they're less of a surprize.

Also, in regards to alps being broke, I really don't see it. Furthermore - anybody who claims they're worse than old sorrows clearly never played against a real panda list. tbh - they're pretty much balanced. Only particularly nasty part is exhaustion, and that doesn't even trigger never wake up. 4Df and Wd3 is appropriate for their cost, and any master worth it's salt will murder 3-4 of them in an action due to how closly they need to be placed together to function. Only way to prevent a master doing this is drowning them in them, and then you just charge them with another bloody model. 2" melee range > exhaustion. I don't mean to sound callous, but. seriously. if you're losing to lists full of alps, you aren't trying hard enough. I can't think of a master that doesn't have some kind of out to them.

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Well the first game I played VS LCB was with nicodem, and i had my dogs run up in there pack and they got themself killed by the alps. I did something kinda cleaver I placed a shafted marker in the center of my dogs so that the alps could only do one thing then move out of range of the marker. Though the result was the same 4 dead dogs, 2 new alps.

So then The dreamer sucked them into his head and then spewed them next to my other models, they were kinda spead out but not much , about 3 or 4 inches between each other. The alps place themselfs infrount and inbetween my models. Due to the fact that my models died after actavating i only had Nicoderm and mindless zombies left. I was really lucky the next few turns and pulled off a 12WP test with the max - flips. Though that was pure luck. I would then summen more zombies and try and cast decay but being so packed i would never know who i hit and would miss or not get a + flip on a model and not get the plum 1/2 the time. but between him getting an alp after i my zombies die in the closeing step and the fact that i still got corpes counters i was able to hang on my master till the last turn. LCB was in play but I was able to stop him with my paralyzing spell. if Nicadem flipped anything lower then a 5 in his wp tests he would have taken at lest 7 wounds, though out of 3 turns being surrounded i only took 7 wounds form the alps wp test and was able to stay alive via healing with Soul stones from there other attacks.

So I had some AoE effects but the fact that i was not able to kill enough. Though slow to die is alot better then i thought since i could summen a model and then it would die from slow would still have one action before they died.

And though i dont think there is no way to beat them, my argument is that they are more powerful then they should be. And my main issue is that it gives out a lot of wounds without a defence or a possablity of failure.

In spell casting you have to flip and you might not get the suite you need or flip a black joker and so on and the spells effect would not damage you. On top of that you could have a flip to counter the spell's/weapons damage and then your safe. But alps -1 to your flip for each one there and add on top of that they each give you one wound if you fail. so on a normal model with wp 5 since thats seems to be the norm for undead, I have to flip at lest 4 cards and none of them can be below 7 or else my model dies seems a bit steep. witch in the case of my game above never happend save twice with my master who only needed a 5 or better since he had a high WP and i got crazy lucky with those flips.

In the game every other attack seems to have a chance to fail, bad flips black jokers in the mix and a chance to defend it. But a -3 flip on a 7+ is not a possable defence so its basicly auto hits and since the wounds come from lots of sorces there is no real defence vs the damage. And that is what makes the models stronger then others.

So like I said before and karn accepted as a reasonble fix that makeing the model rare 3 or 4 makes it so that most models wont be atuo killed by a horde of 7+ alps and makes it more fair for other lists to play vs.

I do not think they need to be cuddled like Pandora and her woes were, that to me was taking the matter a bit too far, but limiting the amount of alps will not break the list and will make it still highly competitve, and you would still get SS to buy other models like teddy. Though thinking about it i would make them rare 4 not 3.

-Andrew

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Um, right. I only need the gist of what timelapse is saying to respond to this. You're using the viktorias as an example here? Ooo-Kaay. So, the smother thing gives you - a million flips on the initial flip, but that doesn't pass over to soulstones, so flipping a 5 saves you from that, and then the only thing you need to worry about is exhaustion, and that only matters if they've wrapped all of them around one model. That said - whichever viktoria isn't in gets a free charge and then proceeds to murder the entire pack. 4 Df and 3Wd, your min kills them, and your melee range puts you outside of exhaustion.

"doesn't pass over to soulstones, so flipping a 5 saves you from that"

-Not sure what you mean by this since the victoria's wp is six you need 6 or betters to win the duel, and you can use soulstones since your in a - flip if thats what you mean.-

As for my example If i am understading you right when you say

"whichever viktoria isn't in"

-that you think there was one that was free of the alps range but they are both within the alps in my example.

"6 alps would be with in 3" of both my models."

-so both are in. so that makes no sence to me.

Next The idea is that both have at lest 3 alps within an inch of them and both have 6 alps within 3 inchs of them.

So if one actvates it would take one would from each, so that is 6 in total form 6 differnt sorces so soul stones will only stop one wound each at max.

Next they would have to move or attack to kill alps nether is possable here since that action would kill vitoria.

Depending on how they are placed you might be able to pull off a sister in spirt to limit the amount of alps on one sister but it would have to be just right. So the way i see it the sisters have 3 options, first is hope they get a 6 or better on there WP tests since they only have WP of 6, pass there actions or die.

So since in my example neather of the victoras were as you put it "isn't in" there would be no free chage in killing the lot of them.

Though I agree they are not the end all be all models in the game once you get them to swarms of 5-8 its game over for there opponets who have to activate in amoung them. And remember that that the dreamer gets to place them so that they can in the most uesful loctations so there is no real defence save spreading soo far out that LCB will have no trouble killing your models one by one.

but as for my example i think you may have mis read it.

But like i just said i think they need to be limited slightly to be rare 4 and they will be fine, they will keep there numbers up themselfs, they can be still summened by Coppelius but there will be only 4 in play at a time so they dont auto kill models activatign within 3 inches of them but they wound them to the point that they should be easy to kill.

I think its a fair fix and does not cuddle the list.

Just my thoughts though.

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Reasons why it might be a little early to cry foul:

Have you fought Cassandra?

In a crew with Collette, she's a WP 7. I can get a 5 even with a :-fate or two.

And then without a "move" or "strike" action (but a little SS action) I can breathe fire and oops. Killed 4 or 5 Alps. And then I waltz over and kill LCB.

Have you fought Ryle?

Talent that ignores Smother. Cost 0 that pushes him out of combat.

And then he shoots dead 3 Alps. Thanks! I needed a way to remove "insignificant".

Have you fought Papa?

Sure you have have have him up front but and center where only a crazy per-- oh.

He'll fail the Wp check INSTANTLY -- needs 10's without :-fate ... so he'll take a few wounds. And he'll then make one false move ... booom. No Alps in a 6" radius circle.

And none of that is taking into account the "Ikiryo kills dreamer completing a scheme on turn 1 shenanagans" or the "we both get Reconnoiter instead of slaughter" verses an army of Gaki (who don't mind single Alps). If you don't like Gaki, try showgirls, gremlins, or guardsmen. Absorbing, breathing fire one, or simply striking with boomsticks is enough to make Alps a rough sell on certain missions while.

I'm not saying he's not a tough master to face. Just that it's a little early to cry foul in a book as filled with as much beautiful sickness as Rising Power.

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Well the first game I played VS LCB was with nicodem, and i had my dogs run up in there pack and they got themself killed by the alps. I did something kinda cleaver I placed a shafted marker in the center of my dogs so that the alps could only do one thing then move out of range of the marker. Though the result was the same 4 dead dogs, 2 new alps.

So you ran cannon fodder models up in a group, and were surprised when they died in droves... would you have run them up against Sonnia, with her blasts, or the Ortegas, with their guns?

In spell casting you have to flip and you might not get the suite you need or flip a black joker and so on and the spells effect would not damage you. On top of that you could have a flip to counter the spell's/weapons damage and then your safe. But alps -1 to your flip for each one there and add on top of that they each give you one wound if you fail. so on a normal model with wp 5 since thats seems to be the norm for undead, I have to flip at lest 4 cards and none of them can be below 7 or else my model dies seems a bit steep.

If twelve (or more) points of your models (that's three belles or two punks) ganged up on one 4-5 point model, how survivable would you expect it to be?

In the game every other attack seems to have a chance to fail, bad flips black jokers in the mix and a chance to defend it. But a -3 flip on a 7+ is not a possable defence so its basicly auto hits and since the wounds come from lots of sorces there is no real defence vs the damage. And that is what makes the models stronger then others.

I'd argue that it's what makes the models competent. The majority of their stats are pretty mediocre. While they have other tricks, those other tricks are anything but reliable. Anything with a damage spell, or a weapon with more than 6" range, is going to tear through them like no one's business, and that's before blasts and pulses. Honestly, where was Decay through all of this? It doesn't matter who you hit with that- cheat down a friendly victim model's Df and get the blast off, friendly model gets healed, alps die in droves. How about punk zombies and their lovely aura damage? It's not like alps are terribly resilient.

Heck, in the brawl I proxied them for, I bought 3. By turn two, I had 7. They were doing great, until Lilith transpositioned in and then started whirlwinding. Yeah, she took some damage, but by the time she was done, I was back to three alps, and one of those was halfway across the board where she'd swapped it to. She'd also taken out my insidious madness and badly hurt Coppelius and my Stitched Together. All this from a master I have a hard time considering a credible threat without book 2 models. LCB was hiding back out of harm's way, since there was no way I was letting a nephilim close enough to gnaw his face off, and I found myself turning to my star player, Pandora (it was a brawl) to finish off Lilith and bail out my nightmares.

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Ok see the Ronin thread posted here:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9814&highlight=ronin+broken

2 Months later: Run Through changed from 1 action to 2.

OH LOOK WHAT HAPPPENED. Look who was right about Ronin, a post from EricJ himself but I digress...

Well, you sure showed him.

He must have been really surprised when that got changed.

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Goldstep, its fine to say one or two models can defeat this, like i said before its not the end all be all model in the game, I am just noting that it deals out wounds without any real defence against them, since he places the models he can place them in a way that you will lose a model without being able to do anything about it. If you have one or two models in your list that can do alot of damage then he will most likey not place the alps near them, and go for your other models.

So you ran cannon fodder models up in a group, and were surprised when they died in droves... would you have run them up against Sonnia, with her blasts, or the Ortegas, with their guns?

Well if you read my post you would find that it was the first time i have ever seen LCB. I also did not own the book, that part i did not say. So I had no idea how he ran or anything about him. I was not surprised that they died i was just not happy that i got no real form of defence. In the game you always have a chance be it a low one, but this is an impossable chance, I just didnt find a game where you activated a model and it would die to be that much fun.

If twelve (or more) points of your models (that's three belles or two punks) ganged up on one 4-5 point model, how survivable would you expect it to be?

Well that depends am i playing a smart player who will place his alps well and will most likey see a group of models ready to gang up on his alps so he deploys them in a more secure location. or am I playering a player who new to the game and places the alps somewhere in the open where I can gang up on him?

I'd argue that it's what makes the models competent. The majority of their stats are pretty mediocre. While they have other tricks, those other tricks are anything but reliable. Anything with a damage spell, or a weapon with more than 6" range, is going to tear through them like no one's business, and that's before blasts and pulses. Honestly, where was Decay through all of this? It doesn't matter who you hit with that- cheat down a friendly victim model's Df and get the blast off, friendly model gets healed, alps die in droves. How about punk zombies and their lovely aura damage? It's not like alps are terribly resilient.

Yes a punk zombie in the right place at the right time useing his slow to die (since the alps will have most likey killed him) useing slice and dice might be good if you get a high enough card so that he needs a high card to defend. DF 4 is not that bad really on the alps. In my game there once was a time i had a zombie in the right place to hit 4 out of the 8 alps in play but it was the wrong time and if i would have done slice and dice i would have most likely killed my master and the one other none mindless zombie figure i had left on the table.

Heck, in the brawl I proxied them for, I bought 3. By turn two, I had 7. They were doing great, until Lilith transpositioned in and then started whirlwinding. Yeah, she took some damage, but by the time she was done, I was back to three alps, and one of those was halfway across the board where she'd swapped it to. She'd also taken out my insidious madness and badly hurt Coppelius and my Stitched Together. All this from a master I have a hard time considering a credible threat without book 2 models. LCB was hiding back out of harm's way, since there was no way I was letting a nephilim close enough to gnaw his face off, and I found myself turning to my star player, Pandora (it was a brawl) to finish off Lilith and bail out my nightmares.

Well that is kinda funny, now LCB pandora and Alps now thats a nasty-er mix. Well he was able to do that traspose thing whitch is nice but not every model in the game can do that. And only bringing 3 alps is kinda on the slim side in scraps from what i hear, 5 is kinda what i think most players would bring at a min. But in a brawl why not bring 8 or 10? I mean you get to have the apear out of thin air. And then disapear!

For what they can do at 3 points is better then any 3 point model in the game, in fact its better then some 6 point modles. It all depends on the models and the games i Know every list has one or two models that could be good vs swarms of 3 point models. I know there are models that can beat this, there were models that could beat ronin before they were changed I know becuase i faced them alot and never had an issue with them because they seemed to die before doing any real harm.

Also almost all the spells in the game that did not have a resist rating were changed so that every model had a chance of defending itself, but at the max - flip and needing to beat at lest a 6 or a 7 for most models thats a bit harsh just to atuo damage and make them slow. But most of the time if played right there is not model to make slow just a brand new summoned alp.

I think 3 or 4 of them max would be fair yes you still get damage with out being able to do anything about it but at lest your not getting 7 wounds just for activating and 7 more for moveing or tring to kill a single alp.

There is some models that do good AOE damage but a good LCB will eather kill or aviod the major them and thats not the only models in the list, you got teddys to tie things up or even other nightmares.

But all i am saying is that they are vary powerful for there points and what they can do and on top of that they have a load of other skills like being able to hear LCB and such. on there own outside of a dreamer list they are fine since you have a chance to kill them before they get to you but in a LCB list they just swarm and there is no defence VS there WP dual of death stare. They dont even have to activate to make it work.

Well im getting sleepy and this post is way too long. Sorry if i came off rude or angry thats not the case I just think for the points they cost and for what they get to do they are one the most powerful model in the game. And since this post title says that LCB is over powered I wanted to state that is not him that is over powered IMHO its the alps he uses and the way he uses them.

I think that if ramos could drop his steam punk spiders all around you and if they had an ablity that killed any model that was within 3 inches of these models when that model activates. and ramos can suck them back in before reinforcement get there then you might think that steam punk spiders are a bit over powered. just a bit. I just saying defending vs alps is not vary fun if i talored my list to beat them and got to chose any master (in our turnments you chose one master and have to stick to them and there army type) then it I would but I hate it when my oppent gets to froce me to bring stuff, it makes him stronger because he will aways know what he is faceing. But for most games I feel like the Minors roit staring blackly and then running for my life when the alps apear. So not so much fun but panic.

But like i said im sleepy so my typing might not be so great. Ill come back on and edit this latter... Night all

-Andrew

Edited by TimeLapse
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Main reason you can't run away from LCB... he's probably faster than you. Dreamer/LCB is very good at moving around the battlefield and throwing his minions out. You'll have a hard time outflanking LCB, pinning him down, or out-running him. He's a glass cannon, like has been said before. Dreamer is a chump without minions to boogie with, and LCB doesn't just have a glass jaw, he has a paperstock jaw. Glass might at least take some effort to shatter.

And I love LCB! I can't wait til his box comes out, personally. I've played a lot of games with LCB, and so far, he's pretty much the same as my other crews. Really, REALLY not OP. Hell, if i had to vote a OP master, it'd be Levi or Jones.

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Ok see the Ronin thread posted here:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9814&highlight=ronin+broken

2 Months later: Run Through changed from 1 action to 2.

OH LOOK WHAT HAPPPENED. Look who was right about Ronin, a post from EricJ himself but I digress...

I've played twice with the dreamer and both games were an absolute slaughter but that's not the point that I won, it's the fact that nothing in the game can counter the Dreamers ability to charge with LCB and drop the entire list on your head, especially when you can drop offensive powerhouses like Lelu from running through your entire list not to mention LCB with 8 soulstones.

It's ok if you don't understand how the strategy of charging from across the board and summoning your entire army on your opponents head isn't good I can't help you. But try using your head a little and try to think how that might be useful.

A. Jesus tapdancing Christ, dude, thread necromancy much? That little argument's like a year old, relax.

B. Please, please, I BEG of you, go ahead and run your whole army in and drop it on me. It's a beautiful thing.

C. You know, using my head, which I personally think is a very good head, I do see several ways it can be useful! I also see that it's not the end-all be-all of tactics, and that in fact it's just another, admittedly very interesting method of alpha striking!

You know, I've noticed that you think a lot of models are OP. I also notice that you tend to insult people, a lot, in your "debates". And that's something I take a bit of offense to. It's been said before, and I doubt it'll have any effect this time, but please don't insult people while posting. It's rude, and makes me angry. I mean, dude, you're breaking my first rule. :boom:

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I'm going to reserve my judgment till I have played more games, but this all really really does look like a knee jerk reaction. It seems like the OP had a couple of lucky games against an ill prepared opponent (I can think of several counter with all of my masters) and I bet when the Alps come out they will not be the uber death machine they are getting the rep for now.

I mean they look good and synergize well with other models, but they are easy to kill.

But again I need to test them first.

Edited: Sometimes we get lucky streaks. We all need to give these models some game time before anyone can say anything.

Edited by Murphy'sLawyer
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alps dont bothere me much if you want to spend 18 ss on them thats up to you and if you are the kind of person to do that i probably wont play you that much. i play hoff, ramos and livictus mainly, with ramos i jus blow up spiders, i can spend about 9 ss worth of models, to blow them all up, or use and electrical creation, or use the gunsmith with blasts. with the hoff i can open circuit in the midle of them and there all dead or uses ryle's gattling gun to smush at least 3 or 4 of them, with levictus well i can eather use desolation (cant remember is dg output) or the de every strike makes me lose life but i can heal it up again. or jus 4 spas mean you have 4 df -> 9 dules, and i have rustys boobytraps, there is always a way, it may cost you, but i finde that the ratio usualy goes in my favor, and wial this onslaught is atacking me i just go for vp

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It seems to me that a Dreamer crew against Seamus is at an instant disadvantage.

Hit his Alps with an (1)Undead Psychosis and squish LCB into a fine paste.

Insideous Madness doesn't look too scary, either.

Just tentacl-ey, and I'm all for Calimari, so bring it on.

Edited by Sandwich
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Really? I played against Chompy using that exact strategy a couple days ago (we tried an all proxy game. the hardest part was remembering which Mage Knights were which models.) and I kicked his butt. I was playing Leveticus, trying out the new Ashes and Dust, and Levi's survivability and range really destroy Chompy. For one thing, chompy has to get in close to fight you, and so does his crew. but if you spread out, he has to take you on one by one. Using your own models as bait, even fairly expensive ones, works to slow him down and allow you to whittle him/go around. Chompy's dreams might be combat powerhouses, but they got nothing for terrain control. If you summon all your units, yeah, you got a huge clump of awesome, but it's still a six inch clump. Your enemy can be everywhere.

In my game, he did what you did, targeting Ashes and Dust with his death clump, while I spread out. In my aforementioned ONE ACTIVATION, I dominated Lelu with Leveticus, and turned him into a spare waif that chompy player had to waste his time killing lest it pull some kind of suicide tap soul kind of thing.

After Lelu's death, Lilitu was fairly easy to take down, I think I rapid fired her to death with Alyce. After that, it was mostly SPA summoning and baiting, while Alyce ran around setting charges with occasional help from Levi (line in the sand, btw) and I caught Chompy in the trap of having to accomplish his strategy/thwart my strategy/kill my models, all three of which he couldn't do very well.

All in all, a fairly decisive game, though the Ashes never managed to get back up again. I achieved all my schemes and strategy, and chompy got one scheme.

I suppose the whole point of this is: Don't make it a straight up fight. Be a wuss, play your strategies, and bait the big boy with stuff that's non vital, but too big to ignore. I haven't tried, but I'd imagine Nicodem would be great at this.

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"doesn't pass over to soulstones, so flipping a 5 saves you from that"

-Not sure what you mean by this since the victoria's wp is six you need 6 or betters to win the duel, and you can use soulstones since your in a - flip if thats what you mean.-

As for my example If i am understading you right when you say

"whichever viktoria isn't in"

-that you think there was one that was free of the alps range but they are both within the alps in my example.

"6 alps would be with in 3" of both my models."

-so both are in. so that makes no sence to me.

I'm saying this because you've got 6 WP, and you're going to flip at a minimum a one from the initial flip, and then you only need a 5 off the soulstone. 6+1+5=12. Furthermore, if the dreamer manages to walk up to you, and spawn them exactly where you don't want them, activate one of the sisters and drag the scary one out of range of exhaustion - clearly, because of the situation you've created for this debate, they're all stood next to eachother, and any of them that you get within 2" of the swordmistress will, unless you fail on some catastrophic level with flips, instagib from a single hit. Even if you need to be in range of an exhaustion or two, just target the closest first to thin out exhaustion, and every time you do this - you're drawing cards. tbh, wrapping the viktorias in alps is giving them free kills, nothing more.

Also. When you played against them the first time, did you ask to read what your opponents models could do? or did you just run dogs at them and pray? And why would you run dogs at people anyway? they're free corpses! You don't Attack people with them! You use them as fodder and then turn them into samurai/peiced together beast! Most agressive thing you do with them is use them for their -Df gang up thing. Against the dreamer, stand back, don't feed him models, and paste him with decay. Soon as LCB shows himself, you chain-paralize him, and keep him there for the rest of the game.

Also - just, if you worry about him dropping alps - activate dogs until he does. just flood him with pointless activations and don't move in on the dreamer until he's either activated and not emptied his reserves onto the table, or has. Then, and only then - start throwing spells at him with Nico. Not before. The dreamer starts out with an enormous activation dissadvantage, and abusing that is key to beating him.

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Alps aren't overpowered, they are situational.

I think of Alps exactly like I think of Pandora. There are some crews that just can't beat them, but then there are crews they just can't beat.

I also think of an all Alp + Dreamer army exactly the same as I think of my old Pandora army... boring. No one wants to play against that. It isn't overpowered but it would be just plain boring.

As far as winning goes: Is it a good crew to win with? Yes. There are lots of good crews to win with though.

I think the main problem with the Alps, besides being boring, is that a blithering idiot can probably win with an all Alp crew. It is kind of mindless. At least Pandora takes skill and setup to win with. The Dreamer just runs and drops a bunch of Alps and then a lot of crews are dead, and other crews don't care and kill you. Boring boring boring, mindless mindless mindless.

But are they overpowered and need changing? No.

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In my game, he did what you did, targeting Ashes and Dust with his death clump, while I spread out. In my aforementioned ONE ACTIVATION, I dominated Lelu with Leveticus, and turned him into a spare waif that chompy player had to waste his time killing lest it pull some kind of suicide tap soul kind of thing.

Only one problem, how did you turn lelu into a waif, he is a nightmare and is considered not living, nor undead.

I don't know how much this had a pull on the game I just wanted to let you know.

Edited by Iamwyrd
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Really? I played against Chompy using that exact strategy a couple days ago (we tried an all proxy game. the hardest part was remembering which Mage Knights were which models.) and I kicked his butt. I was playing Leveticus, trying out the new Ashes and Dust, and Levi's survivability and range really destroy Chompy. For one thing, chompy has to get in close to fight you, and so does his crew. but if you spread out, he has to take you on one by one. Using your own models as bait, even fairly expensive ones, works to slow him down and allow you to whittle him/go around. Chompy's dreams might be combat powerhouses, but they got nothing for terrain control. If you summon all your units, yeah, you got a huge clump of awesome, but it's still a six inch clump. Your enemy can be everywhere.

In my game, he did what you did, targeting Ashes and Dust with his death clump, while I spread out. In my aforementioned ONE ACTIVATION, I dominated Lelu with Leveticus, and turned him into a spare waif that chompy player had to waste his time killing lest it pull some kind of suicide tap soul kind of thing.

After Lelu's death, Lilitu was fairly easy to take down, I think I rapid fired her to death with Alyce. After that, it was mostly SPA summoning and baiting, while Alyce ran around setting charges with occasional help from Levi (line in the sand, btw) and I caught Chompy in the trap of having to accomplish his strategy/thwart my strategy/kill my models, all three of which he couldn't do very well.

All in all, a fairly decisive game, though the Ashes never managed to get back up again. I achieved all my schemes and strategy, and chompy got one scheme.

I suppose the whole point of this is: Don't make it a straight up fight. Be a wuss, play your strategies, and bait the big boy with stuff that's non vital, but too big to ignore. I haven't tried, but I'd imagine Nicodem would be great at this.

Are you sure you didnt dream this?

Many of the activations you are describing are not rules-legal.

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I don't know why you guys are talking about Alps, the Lelu/Lilitu are much better, Lelu is just an absolute monster and Alps are so fragile they'll pretty much get one shotted by basically anything. The Lelus are much tougher and with melee expert paired poison 2 you can't go wrong. They also activate together which is ridiculous going right after LCB moves across the board.

How do you even say spreading out against Lelus is a counter. That's not even close...Lelu's get summoned 6 from LCB then they have a charge. So you would litterally need to split up like across the board from the rest of your units and then when that's dead which it will be after my entire list activated in 2 activations, you'll have another side of the board to move closer to me because you were too scared of getting charged in one turn, so instead you'll die by splitting your army up. So eventually you planned on going toe to toe with me after half your army died?

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I don't know why you guys are talking about Alps, the Lelu/Lilitu are much better, Lelu is just an absolute monster and Alps are so fragile they'll pretty much get one shotted by basically anything. The Lelus are much tougher and with melee expert paired poison 2 you can't go wrong. They also activate together which is ridiculous going right after LCB moves across the board.

How do you even say spreading out against Lelus is a counter. That's not even close...Lelu's get summoned 6 from LCB then they have a charge. So you would litterally need to split up like across the board from the rest of your units and then when that's dead which it will be after my entire list activated in 2 activations, you'll have another side of the board to move closer to me because you were too scared of getting charged in one turn, so instead you'll die by splitting your army up. So eventually you planned on going toe to toe with me after half your army died?

Alps im my mind are FAR superior units, The Lelu and Lilitu are 14SS pair and the Alps are 3SS so compairing their survivability is a poor area of comparison the only fair was is to compair five alps to ove Lelu and one Lilitu. If one of the pair dies the other takes wounds til it dies, if One of mine dies it gets its friends to kill any of your models and produce another alp. The reason IMO Alps are superior I have played games where I buy four alps and end with ten, this level of power cannot be seen from the Lelu or Lilitu, as with an alps lets say there are five in the instance mentioned above the foe takes five wounds for activating, then if they choose to attack they take five more. then after your model dies, the other activates immediatly after takes five more, walks and or strikes then takes five more. Its this level of offencive power that makes the Alps so strong. and if Coppelous happens to be in the crew, use eyeballs to make more alps Wash rinse repeat.

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