Tactica: Kirai

[Ratty]

yeah but i find i play too agressive so sheshin becon is up aling with into the spirit world so i dont use spirit food as often as i like to. i often find myself passing with my one action because my opp usually dont kill ikiryo and i dont have enough sheshin or wd after evolving spirits.

Don't you use Chill of Death? I would throw that out if anyone is in range it can be a game winner if an opponents model can't cheat.

[Peterdita]

Been using this trick lately and its MEAN!

Take a Samurai punk zomie, Have the totem turn it into a spirit, heal it up with Karai/Datsue-ba/Totem.

Now you hava a hard to wound spirit with paired cb7 katanas. You can also now switch this with other spirits so it can flurry, oh and don;t forget to have a seishin (2) +2 cb buff spirit, so you now hit with paired 9s. So nasty...

[Ratty]

Advanced Tactica, Some strategies that have worked for me.

Gaki cycling.

Works against: swarm armies. Last time I used it was against a McMourning crew that had lots of Dogs and Necropunks.

What you need: plenty of Seishin to garauntee that you don't get out activated. Lost Love and Datsue-ba are not essential but help. Fill out the rest of your points with cheap models Night Terrors and Gaki are good. I would probably go with Night Terrors as they are fast so can help with positioning, also you are going to be making plenty of Gaki but probably don't have the Actions spare to spin your starting Gaki's into the combat zone fast enough.

Tactic: Push forward Seishin early in the 1st Turn. Keep them behind terrain and spread out so they can't be seen. Wait till you opponent pushes out a group of models, You should easily be able to take on a group of 4 or so models. Then into the Spirit world with Kirai using your Seishin as a target. If necessary to get in range for Spirit food walk forward once, summon your Ikyro into combat with the model you Spirit fooded and if possible another model. If in range to get a Seishin off the death of their model eat the Seishin you summoned to to get back life and more cards. Use Ikyro ability to pull your forces forward. Then destroy the model to gain a Gaki and a healing flip. Attack with the Gaki.

2nd turn: rotate Ikyro out and rotate Datsue-ba in. Spirit food another model. Eat Ikyro if you can and resummon him back into combat. area attack with Datsue-ba to hopefully take out the targetted model and get another Gaki (possible 2 if you get of Weigh Sin, as neither are affected by RoE, [see Rule of Equivilence thread]), take out remaining models with your Gaki and Ikiryo.

Remember to alter as necessary and pick your fight well, try to take out the fastest elements first so they can't reinforce their flanks fast enough to deal with you. It can be tricky to get started but once you have it working it gains momentum.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Ratty

[Ratty]

Advanced Tactica, Some strategies that have worked for me.

Dead zone.

Works against: Small Elite forces that rely on cheating and soulstones to get in their most damaging attack. I have made a mess of Pandora multiple times with this list.

What you need: Jack Daw and hopefully a Hanged. I prefer to run with a large number of Seishin as you need activation advantage and you will not be getting many back from the opponent. I rarely seem to be in 8" of the enemy when they get killed, so don't rely on refilling. Night Terrors or Insidious Madnesses will work well with this army too.

You also need to be able to judge distances very well, with this list an inch makes all the difference.

Aim: The aim is to take out their heavy hitters as fast as you can.

Tactic: Early on you want to use Seishin to draw out your opponents models. Try to keep Jack Daw, Kirai and a fast model like Night Terror back until after they have finished their activations, but activate Jack Daw first out of these if you need to, make sure you activate his anti-cheating aura. Race your fast moving model up so it is exactly 6" or 10" away from the model your planning on killing, preferably hidden out of view. Into the Spirit World with Kirai to this position. Swirl Jack Daw into the place of the fast model. then summon Ikiryo the other side of the model your trying to assassinate at the limit of his close combat attack. If Jack Daw is exactly 10" away from the model, get Ikiryo to coo him forward 4" so the model is affected by Jack Daws aura but Ikiryo isn't. Then Activate Ikiryo to attack it, you can cheat as much as you want but they can't cheat at all, hopefully you can activate his combat trigger and do enough damage to kill the model this turn.

Winning Initiative is quite important so spend the soulstone if necessary. Plunge Jack Daw into the center of their forces so they can't cheat, preferably into a position where a couple of their models are at the extent of his Aura. Don't worry too much about Ikiryo, If he dies he dies.

Carry on this way using your spirits as place holders for the position you need Jack Daw to be in to negate their defence. Attack with Ikiryo, then eat and resummon her if you can as this allows you to cycle to get decent cards which will allow the Jack Daw / Ikiryo tag team to kill something each turn (and allow Ikiryo to get 2 activations a turn). You should not be trying to summon otherwise.

Because they can't cheat to charge Kirai (pitiful) she should be reasonably safe, they probably have to move out of Jack Daws aura to attack her. Saying that if you can keep her out of sight do it, it will save you cards.

If you start getting low on cards eat a Seishin to top up your hand.

[Ratty]

This came up in a Colette thread. Someone suggested using a Slow to Die (1) action to do a healing flip to keep the model alive. I always thought that model removal was just stalled. Can a Gaki really use it's Slow to Die action to snack if it has Corpse Counters (which mine always seem to have) if so they a really tough. Also if they can I assume the initial attack can only take them to 0. they can't end up with -1, -2 wounds can they.

[Wodschow]

This came up in a Colette thread. Someone suggested using a Slow to Die (1) action to do a healing flip to keep the model alive. I always thought that model removal was just stalled. Can a Gaki really use it's Slow to Die action to snack if it has Corpse Counters (which mine always seem to have) if so they a really tough. Also if they can I assume the initial attack can only take them to 0. they can't end up with -1, -2 wounds can they.

All of this is true, you cannot go below 0Wd and if you have more than 0Wd after using your Slow to Die you aren't removed from the table.

It has been discussed alot earlier, the Guild Executioner and Betê Noir are designed this way (sorry that I dont give references, but searching those two should give you alot of threads..).

I doubt that you can use a Slow to Die action to use (1)Heal with soulstone users after the next errata though, but we'll see

Also I like the advanced tactica you posted, more of this!

[Ratty]

Advanced Tactica, Some strategies that have worked for me.

Seishin Screening: One thing you find a lot of new Kirai players doing is bunching all their Seishin Kirai around at all times, You may think that this is the best way to protect Kirai but it can leave you very vulnerable. Having all your pieces in one place gives you a much bigger footprint, which makes it much easier for the opponent to target one of the Seishin with a Blast. Killing a Seishin to make you immune to blasts only lasts one models activation and can be very costly. The other problem is it doesn't leave any room for the Lost Love to teleport to her.

I have found it much more useful to keep only 1 or 2 Seishin in contact. If you think your going to be targeted in a turn use Seishin Beacon. If Kirai gets hit by a blast you can move the damage onto the Seishin and then spend 1 Wd to create another one, (I'm pretty sure this new Seishin isn't hit by the blast as it didn't exist when the Blast was placed.*)

Seishin Scouting: As you are not keeping all your Seishin together with Kirai, you might be wondering what you now do with your Seishin. Seishin are cheap and hugely increase your activation count. I often start my activations with Seishin, moving them forward to give me a position to either move Kirai to with Into the Spirit World or Swirl a totally fresh combat Spirit into. If your Seishin are created late in the turn it can often be useful to move the Seishin next to a combat model that has already activated, next turn you can give your Spirit +2 Cb before swirling it into combat.

*Can anyone clarify this.

[Cambeul]

From previous experience in Table Top Gaming I would say that you get hit from a Blast (or even a Flame Template):

* everything under it is resolved simultaneously

* after damage has been allocated and models removed the Blast ends

* replace casualties with Corpse, Scrap tokens, and place Seishin Spirits

EDIT:

Actually Ratty from what you said in another Post:

*Place Blast Template

*Determine damage to models hit (Seishin uses Spirit Sheath to transfer damage from Kirai to itself)

*Blast Template Removed

*Models are killed

*new Models are Placed/Summoned

*killed Models are removed

Now the question is if damage under the Template is simultaneous can the Seishin use Spirit Sheath if hit because Kirai would "Die" or suffer damage at the same time as the Sieshin.

If Kirai is directly hit by say Criid and the attack caused a Blast Template the Sieshin would be eligiable to use Spirit Sheath, but what if the Seishin was the original target, and then Kirai was caught in the blast would the Seishin still be able to use Spirit Sheath since Kirai was not the original target?

Edited November 16, 2010 by Cambeul

[ItchyDani3l]

Wow this is really nice!

I think there's more stuff too that you can include, such as sacrificing Ikiryo to summon an Onryo (will suffer no wounds because of Ikiryo's ability.)

Also, if Kirai is close to Ikiryo when she is in melée, the Spirit Food ability is very useful: Kirai heals and gets a Gaki summoned.

[Ratty]

If Kirai is directly hit by say Criid and the attack caused a Blast Template the Sieshin would be eligiable to use Spirit Sheath, but what if the Seishin was the original target, and then Kirai was caught in the blast would the Seishin still be able to use Spirit Sheath since Kirai was not the original target?

After careful reading I'm pretty sure you would not be able to move the splash damage from Kirai to the Seishin. However if it targets Kirai the splash damage is normally less than the initial damage. So instead of taking 5 damage and losing a Seishin, you would move the blast to target the Seishin, the Seishin would die, Kirai would take 3 splash instead of the initial 5 and would be able to pay 1 to get back the Seishin.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Ratty

[Cambeul]

When the Seishin uses Spirit Sheath, is it transferring the Hit, or the Damage?

And if it transferred the Hit, would it only take half damage [spirit]? I am thinking yes.

But if it transferred the Damage I am guessing it would not be half damage [spirit]?

[Wodschow]

When the Seishin uses Spirit Sheath, is it transferring the Hit, or the Damage?

And if it transferred the Hit, would it only take half damage [spirit]? I am thinking yes.

It transfers succesful attacks.. Humm.. I think we'll need a rules marshals clarification on this one, but I'd assume it's transferring actual hits.

This would mean Attack duels where the Kirai lost the opposed duel and succesfuls spells that Kirai failed to resist.

It could also be interpreted that anything that went through her Pitifulness would target the Seishin instead (and that the Seishin would do the resisting/defending), but the wording is nearly identical for Pandoras Martyr ability - and if I recall correctly it was ruled as above.

Where I'm actually in doubt is attacks that are neither strikes nor spells but still include an opposed duel. For instance Incite/Pacify or Gamble Your Life.. RAW-wise I think even the opposed duels would be taken by the Seishin rather than by Kirai, which seems a bit odd.

But if it transferred the Damage I am guessing it would not be half damage [spirit]?

If it had transfered the Wd it wouldn't halve them, but I think it would had it been the damage - if I'm right about the first question though, this is a moot discussion.

[dakrulz55]

but if your starin down sonia, why wouldnt you sacrifice a sheshin to negate blast dmg to avoid the situation in the first place?

[Ratty]

Played against Viktoria last night, managed to get a 5-2 win (if I had been bothered it would have been 7-0, but I wanted to see if I could take out both Viks)

Few interesting things that came up.

It was a shared deliver the message.

I took.

Jack Daw

Hanged

Datsue-Ba

4 Seishin

Lost Love

I found that putting a screen of Terrifying models with Jack Daw at the center stopping cheating, made it much harder for Viktoria to run through and hit Kirai, It's always interesting seeing Viktoria run away, and having 1 of the Viks out for 2 turns, (running away and then Rallying) made a huge difference.

Other than helping me manage to get 3 models off one kill, Datsue-ba really did nothing much all game. Anyone have any ideas how to get the most out of her. I'm thinking that I might start swapping he out for a Shikome, with their speed I think they are going to be much much more useful. They will add to Kirai's speed and are a model I don't have to worry about swirling into position allowing me to focus more damage at a point.

[yames]

Played against Viktoria last night, managed to get a 5-2 win (if I had been bothered it would have been 7-0, but I wanted to see if I could take out both Viks)

Few interesting things that came up.

It was a shared deliver the message.

I took.

Jack Daw

Hanged

Datsue-Ba

4 Seishin

Lost Love

I found that putting a screen of Terrifying models with Jack Daw at the center stopping cheating, made it much harder for Viktoria to run through and hit Kirai, It's always interesting seeing Viktoria run away, and having 1 of the Viks out for 2 turns, (running away and then Rallying) made a huge difference.

Other than helping me manage to get 3 models off one kill, Datsue-ba really did nothing much all game. Anyone have any ideas how to get the most out of her. I'm thinking that I might start swapping he out for a Shikome, with their speed I think they are going to be much much more useful. They will add to Kirai's speed and are a model I don't have to worry about swirling into position allowing me to focus more damage at a point.

my experiance with dastuba is i end up using her mostly for the extra move action to get into a better postion and alot of weigh sins.

she looks good in a fight but shes only got a 4 def sure she takes half damg but that only goes so far. the other abilty i tend to use alot is no escaping(cast on my own guys) a 12 inch move is nice to back up ur deep strike and get that last hit in before they can escape.

and denial of sanzu has its moments were it can help stop them from geting a vp or 2

basicly i would say shes a utility piece thats how i feel i get my worth out of her

[yames]

dont know if this has been posted before but just incase.

our other kirai player came up with this idea so i cant take credit for it (i dont think he has an account on here or id post his name) and used it on me when i played sonnia yesterday.

choose assassin as one of your schemes

start with a shikome in your crew. then use student of conflict to give it fast. then burn some activations then use kirai to give it reactivate. then use datsuba to give it a walk action then last have it go move with nimble and your 3 other actions and try to get as close to there master as possible ( he got to me and got a strike in on me with the first activation). then reactivate 3 more attacks. if that doesn't do the trick if u go first in the next turn u can easily get 3 more strikes in.

[Ratty]

dont know if this has been posted before but just incase.

our other kirai player came up with this idea so i cant take credit for it (i dont think he has an account on here or id post his name) and used it on me when i played sonnia yesterday.

choose assassin as one of your schemes

start with a shikome in your crew. then use student of conflict to give it fast. then burn some activations then use kirai to give it reactivate. then use datsuba to give it a walk action then last have it go move with nimble and your 3 other actions and try to get as close to there master as possible ( he got to me and got a strike in on me with the first activation). then reactivate 3 more attacks. if that doesn't do the trick if u go first in the next turn u can easily get 3 more strikes in.

I think it relies on too many models and means you can't take the lost love. I think much more sensible way to do it would be to set up Shikome in deployment zone. push forward Seishin so they are within 12" of the target. Into the Spirit world to them, summon a second Shikome in combat, heal Kirai. swirl the second Shikome in next to Kirai, run forward summoned Shikome and hopefully get in a charge. use (0) action to give 2nd Shikome hunting partner. Attack with 2nd Shikome for 3 attacks at :+fate.

[yames]

I think it relies on too many models and means you can't take the lost love. I think much more sensible way to do it would be to set up Shikome in deployment zone. push forward Seishin so they are within 12" of the target. Into the Spirit world to them, summon a second Shikome in combat, heal Kirai. swirl the second Shikome in next to Kirai, run forward summoned Shikome and hopefully get in a charge. use (0) action to give 2nd Shikome hunting partner. Attack with 2nd Shikome for 3 attacks at :+fate.

it does require alot of models and points and he lost the initive flip which let me activate criid and kill it but it was a new and interesting tactic that has some potential like if your strat is distract and you pull it off thats 4 vp right there +2 for assassin thats 6 vp turn one possibly. its a gamble but one that can pay out

[Ratty]

Because everyone said it would be a hard fight I played against Rasputina tonight. It was horrible. Took a crew with lots of cheap activations.

5 Seishin [10ss]

Necropunk [3ss]

Lost Love [2ss]

Jack Daw [9ss]

Kirai

Then after outactivating her, Into the Spirit World to within 12" of Rasputina, dumped Ikiryo into combat with her and them Swirled out of sight and healed myself. Ikiryo attacked twice against Rasputina and then next turn Rasputina had to attack Ikiryo before she activated and attacked another 3 times. She ended up spending 6ss to survive the assault and get rid of Ikiryo, Next turn I movied Jack Daw forward to stop Rasputina's crew cheating, and then after all their crews activations dumped Ikiryo in just out of Jack Daws aura. Ripped straight through Rasputina, and then next turn her Silent One. It was all over 1st activation of turn 3.

Necropunks are amazing in a Kirai crew. use the Lost Love to make it a spirit and then you have a model that can jump forward 15" on the first turn if you have the cards and give you a target for Kirai to teleport to.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Ratty

[Ratty]

Oh btw watching a Silent One who can't cheat (due to a Jack Daw in it's face) trying to cast spells on a pitiful Kirai is all kinds of funny.

[Buck Dog]

In defence of the other player I would just say that he is very inexperienced with Raspy, had never gone head to head with Kirai before and you weren't playing strategies.

Don't get me wrong, what you did was impressive, but I do wonder if things would be a little less one sided against a Raspy player with a bit more experience.

[Ratty]

In defence of the other player I would just say that he is very inexperienced with Raspy, had never gone head to head with Kirai before and you weren't playing strategies.

Don't get me wrong, what you did was impressive, but I do wonder if things would be a little less one sided against a Raspy player with a bit more experience.

I'm not saying that it will always be that easy, or saying that he played bad.

But even if we were playing for Strategies I had all but destroyed the crew half way through the game, I think it would have been hard for him to complete most strategies from that point even if we had had them.

The problem with Rasputina is she is slow and she has a limited area of effect where she does brutal damage. However Kirai can dive in hit her hard and jump out of this range before she could retaliate. Also none of her defensive spells are that useful. Spirits can run through Ice Walls, so they become a liability not an advantage and they have numerous ways of getting out of freezes over if they need to. I think if he had split his forces up he might of got more coverage for spells, but Kirai could then pick off the models on the edges of Rasputina force.

The reason I brought this up anyway was because another thread discussed how Rasputina would be Kirai's ultimate nemesis and wipe her off the board with magic damage. I actually think Marcus might be a better bet or Colette.

Marcus as he's fast and can take and deal a reasonable amount of damage. Get him in between her and her Seishin and he could probably remove most of her support structure in a turn.

Colette has enough tricks that she can probably bounce away from a Kirai alpha strike, her constructs don't make spirits and Copheree are brutal in combat and again move fast enough that they can get in and remove her support structure.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Ratty

[Ratty]

I must admit as I knew we were short on time (especially after we had to restart the game before as the scenario was a bit borked and it was impossible for him to win after the first activation. *) I played far more brutally that I would normally do with Kirai, it was very much just pound Rasputina until she ran out of SS and fell over.

* Never play shared Destroy the Evidence without Schemes with a fast crew, it is very possible to get the central objective in a single activation and as it's worth 2VPs alone it becomes very hard if not impossible for the opponent to win. I think it might have been OK if we had just removed the center marker and played without it

Edited February 4, 2011 by Ratty

[Kittygotclaws]

As the other player, I have to say Ratty was impressive, he knew his crew and had a clear plan. It was my second time out with Rasputina and first encounter with Jack Daw. It was good to see first hand what Kirai can do. Ratty well played but you won't find it quite so easy next time, this kitty is gonna stratch your eyes out.

[Ratty]

As the other player, I have to say Ratty was impressive, he knew his crew and had a clear plan. It was my second time out with Rasputina and first encounter with Jack Daw. It was good to see first hand what Kirai can do. Ratty well played but you won't find it quite so easy next time, this kitty is gonna stratch your eyes out.

Yay, I know who you are on here now.. We will play a proper game with a bit more time and proper Schemes and Strategies. I will have some thoughts about how you deal with Kirai with Rasputina. As I said I'd played out Kirai vs Rasputina quite a bit in my mind before we faced so I knew exactly what I was going for. I do think that Marcus might be a much better choice, but if you do go for Raputina definitely don't drop the Cerberus, you need to put pressure back on Kirai.

Oh and I'm afraid of no cats.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Ratty