How to counter corpse counters, or stoppin gmassive summoning

[orius]

Si I have played a fair amount of games now against Nicodem and McMourning and I must say...wow there summonin gpower is awesome, almost to awesome to handle!

To begin with a play a summoner as well, Ramos and I have no where near the ability to summon things as these fellas do. Here is what makes them so awesome.

Canine Remains - These are BY FAR!! the best 2 cost models in the game, and I would argue better than most 3 pt. Why you ask? well, they have grave digger so can get corpse counters and then give them to there master. They are also mega fast and can loose insignificant to hold objectives.

Every face a Nicodem or Mcmourning list with 3+ canines? if you havent you soon will. Take 5 of em for 10 pts turn one gather 5 corpse counters turn two as a zero cost give em all to your master!

I wish I could get 2 scrap counters a turn let alone 5...hell i would settle for one scrap counter a turn if it didnt take 2 of ramos actions some other guy gave it to him!

Nicodem: Nicodem I would say is the ultimate summoner. He is the only guy with a 1 cost summon spell so he can make multiples a turn and he can make ALMOST ANYTHING HE WANTS!!! Nicodem with those 5 corpse counters can make crooked men, flesh contructs more canines you name it he can make it! and it isnt that hard to do.

On top of that he turns them all in to fing ninjas with his zero cost 10" buff of doom and spices it up if he so chooses with a 6" soft cover...

MCMOURNING:

He is a ranged/melee machine who can get body counters whenever he hurts people, kills people, a stiff wind passes by. All his other myraid uses of body counters aside he is never want for counters to churn out a flesh construct every turn or other turn crow cards permitting.

Ive played him twice and each time he was getting more body counters then he could feasibly use and I was not able to kill his minions or him fast enough.

Basically the issue is when playing Nicodem and Mcmourning the game becomes kill the master. Heck Nicodem can stay in his deployment zone with a few canine corpse gathering machines and churn out undead forever.

He has no issues with objectives hmm need quarters you say? well turn five ill spawn canine remains within 6" they walk 6" next turn they double walk 12", got it covered!

There just needs to be a way to get rid of those fing counters besides using specific models. I mean for the rest of my days I dont want to auto include hamlin or the december acolyte for my take all comers lists just to get rid of corpse counters.

Edited September 7, 2009 by orius

[Kealios]

Technically, he is only getting 2.5 counters per turn by using the 5 dogs in this manner. The Canine Remains also must stay within 6" of Nic...easy to accomplish the first two turns, but after that, once you've had a bit of time to advance, its not unreasonable to Lure him away from the dogs with any number of tricks.

Yes, the ability to summon is phenominal. I likely wont face this list any time soon, but get close to Nic and he looks like he splats nicely. But thats the trick, isnt it? Getting close?

[Draykin]

Just a thought, the dogs are out front and possibly 6" away if they go to max range. They have Df 5 and only Wd 3. They arent all that hard to kill. If you are having problems with them getting and passing tokens to Nico, just shoot them or spell one or two..you have now cut down his effectiveness at gathering parts.

Ramos has those wonderful spider bombs, send a few on mission to kill the dogs and then you can make more later. They have the same speed, one lower Df and 6 more Wd. Nico player would be able to get one turn of searching before you hit his dogs.

[goblyn13]

Can also hire Hamelin, he has a 0 action that eats all corpse/scrap counter in 6"

[orius]

Technically, he is only getting 2.5 counters per turn by using the 5 dogs in this manner. The Canine Remains also must stay within 6" of Nic...easy to accomplish the first two turns, but after that, once you've had a bit of time to advance, its not unreasonable to Lure him away from the dogs with any number of tricks.

Yes, the ability to summon is phenominal. I likely wont face this list any time soon, but get close to Nic and he looks like he splats nicely. But thats the trick, isnt it? Getting close?

No technically he gets 5....Nicodem can use them right away the dogs dont have to give them to him its just an added bonus.

and Nicodem does not splat nicely, he will have soft cover against ranged and if you are a melee threat he turns those lovely corpse counters into mindless zombies he can pop instead of dying. Flesh constructs can be utilized to toss you away from him as well or hanged man fear. Heck use a crooked man with a sink hole and end the dudes life! He has options...

[orius]

Just a thought, the dogs are out front and possibly 6" away if they go to max range. They have Df 5 and only Wd 3. They arent all that hard to kill. If you are having problems with them getting and passing tokens to Nico, just shoot them or spell one or two..you have now cut down his effectiveness at gathering parts.

Ramos has those wonderful spider bombs, send a few on mission to kill the dogs and then you can make more later. They have the same speed, one lower Df and 6 more Wd. Nico player would be able to get one turn of searching before you hit his dogs.

they have def 5 until nicodem makes them def 7 and gives them soft cover against ranged...

If you use sebastian/mortimer these guys can companion a dog which companions all of them so they can collect all those tokens in one go.

and

[orius]

Can also hire Hamelin, he has a 0 action that eats all corpse/scrap counter in 6"

this is a good option! with arcanist I can also take the december acolyte he can collect them...sort of...but like i said in my edit of the initial post I am hoping the game doesnt become autoinclude hamlin or other options to take away corpse/scrap counters.

[Kealios]

No technically he gets 5....Nicodem can use them right away the dogs dont have to give them to him its just an added bonus.

You cannot use Corpse Counters carried by other models unless it specifically says so. This is the whole reason the dogs have the For You, Master Ability. What bonus do you think he would get from that Action, or why would the dogs even have it, if Nic could just use them?

and Nicodem does not splat nicely, he will have soft cover against ranged and if you are a melee threat he turns those lovely corpse counters into mindless zombies he can pop instead of dying. Flesh constructs can be utilized to toss you away from him as well or hanged man fear. Heck use a crooked man with a sink hole and end the dudes life! He has options...

As mentioned above, if you get past his defenses, he doesnt put up a huge fight. This is why he actually has 12 Wd and a Df of 3 combined with Hard to Wound 1 - he needs that extra turn to get some more defenses in play. This is why my post mentioned that getting close to him was the trick?

[Draykin]

If you use sebastian/mortimer these guys can companion a dog which companions all of them so they can collect all those tokens in one go.

and

I read it as you only get one (1) extra dog "Compainoned" for each one that gets it. Morty could get 2, Nico doesnt have companion.

The only way the dogs can get there counters and give them to Nico in the same turn is if something dies on them. It takes an all action to searck for them. They then have no more actions for that turn.

Nico cant use them if they are in the possesion of the dogs until they give them up.

[Kealios]

I read it as you only get one (1) extra dog "Compainoned" for each one that gets it. Morty could get 2, Nico doesnt have companion.

You, sir, are correct. Even so, not bad having 2 Canines going at once.

Heck, do 2 turns of Search in a row with your dogs, and turn 3 they funnel over their stuff before moving up. Woot!

[Draykin]

true enough, however if he sends his spider bombs after them by turn two the dogs are in trouble and they are not strong enough to take on a spider or two. If they die then they dont get to send there tokens along.

[orius]

You cannot use Corpse Counters carried by other models unless it specifically says so. This is the whole reason the dogs have the For You, Master Ability. What bonus do you think he would get from that Action, or why would the dogs even have it, if Nic could just use them?

As mentioned above, if you get past his defenses, he doesnt put up a huge fight. This is why he actually has 12 Wd and a Df of 3 combined with Hard to Wound 1 - he needs that extra turn to get some more defenses in play. This is why my post mentioned that getting close to him was the trick?

AWW HA! then i have been playing part of it wrong! I figured you could use counters others had on your side, if this is not true then that is awesome!

still 2.5 is more than enough for him to use every turn with a move or casting the defense spell.

[Kealios]

I figured you could use counters others had on your side, if this is not true then that is awesome!

Page 24, "Counters", 2nd paragraph under the call out box: "Models may only use and discard counters that they carry or are on the table, never counters carried by another model."

[capcap]

Just curious but have you tried the electrical ghost that does auto damage? That seems like it would own models that have to stay close to each other.

[Dv8guy]

Ok after reading this post I chewed through my book devouring to see this. But where do the dogs get a "search" action. I see it no where in their description?

[nilus]

Ok after reading this post I chewed through my book devouring to see this. But where do the dogs get a "search" action. I see it no where in their description?

Don't have the book in front of me but here is the gist. Everyone who is either a scavenger or grave robbers get the (all)search ability to get 1 free token(of there respective type).

[Dv8guy]

Gf found it right after I posted. It's on page 45.

[Chase]

I ran this against Ramos and just summoned Punk Zombies and Mindless Zombies. The list was 2 Dogs, 1 Nicodem, 1 Sebastian, 3 Punk Zombies, and 1 Bete Noir for 35ss.

I think it has a lot of power given the fact that the game has a way to defend from strikes and spells where allows you to "fight" against it (duels). Seems like most mini games don't have this and instead have higher Toughness or an Armour roll.

With this in mind Buff's and non enemy effecting spells seem to be the name of the game. Making the Resurectionists pretty solid. You can't stop me from digging with Nicodem, 2 dogs, and Sebastain in turn 1. And in turn 2 "(0) For you master" over to Nicodem. Futher more the odds are in your favor that in the first draw of your hand to pick up a 9+ of Spades.

Next turn I make a Punk zombie and Midless Zombies or a Flesh Construct.

All and all I think this may be more powerful then other lists if you just duked it out blow for blow. I think the way to counter this would be a Merc that has "eat counters" or whatever, speedy models, or someone like Sonnia Criid.

[orius]

I FOUND MY COUNTER!!!

Leveticus FOR THE WIN!!!

I played a 30 ss game tonight using Leveticus and I just turned all his dogs and spawned undead into steam punk abominations! he doesnt get any corpse counters and if he kills them they now drop scrap counters!

Ill do a write up in the battle report section if you want more juicy details, oh by the way bete noire with Leveticus is the cats paws, bees kness, the sauce, totally awesome!

ramos who?

[Pavic]

Can also hire Hamelin, he has a 0 action that eats all corpse/scrap counter in 6"

How would this help? I did not think that his power could affect counters that are being carried by a model.

[goblyn13]

How would this help? I did not think that his power could affect counters that are being carried by a model.

won't help with the ones carried by the models, but against Nicodem, Mindless zombies can only pop up from uncarried Corpse counters within not from carried corpse counters, also eliminated alot of corpse counters and scrap counters to keep the Res cut down.

[hannibal]

Still, this is a pretty ugly combination. In a 20 SS game you could take Nicodem, 2 Canine Remains, Sebastian, and 2 Punk Zombies. If all the grave robbers searched on turn one and then used their zero action to hand them to Nicodem, that'd give him 4 counters. Reanimator isn't that hard a spell for him to cast and that's two flesh constructs. Now you're playing a 34 soulstone crew vs a 20 soulstone crew.

Is this something to be worried about or is this one of those "sounds scarier on paper" things?

[orius]

no it is preatty scary if your not prepared. However, the thing is he spends a ton of his points on digging counters and they are not doing anything else.

For instance in the game I played he kept 2-3 of his dogs back as well as sebastian thats like 11 points of his army doing nothing but digging one turn and turning over to nico next turn.

Add to this what he summons is slow that first turn and not 100% effective while your whole army is.

It is also slightly balanced with Nico in that if you want the tokens before he goes then it will take a few actions meaning Nico isnt going first or early to pop his uber undead buffs.

I do think when people start playing Nico and Mcmourning well it will create a meta need for dealing with corpse counters and summoning engines, that is a given in my mind.

Wether it be a way to kill the dogs easily even when they are hiding in his deployment zone all game or a way to negate corpse tokens by taking them yourself or removing them people will need a plan which i think the game designers planned for themselves.

and it comes down to two things you need to counter or preare for:

tokens dropped from killed creatures (yours and his)

killing summoning engine models (canines mostly)

For example Bad Juju could wreck his day coming in and landsliding his summoning engine crew.

The guild has options for sure...

the ressurectionist have options as well...

Arcanist have the acolyte who can set up for an assasination or just pick up the dropped tokens.

Outcasts and by extension all factions have Hamlin

[Zee]

And don't forget, you can try to win on the Strategy and Schemes, so choose wisely when facing said crews so that you can try to take them on those terms. It's not just about killing.

[hannibal]

I hear what you guys are saying, but it still sounds like an overpowering combo. I mean, they do lose a turn, but even on a 3x3 board I've found you can get into the game by turn 3. Turn 2 if both sides are going at each other.

And it's not like the dogs or sebastian will be out of it for long. Handing over the counters is a zero action, so they can move up on turn 2. And Nicodem can move up, summoning an undead every turn thanks to casting expert.

As for the stratagies and schemes, most of them can end up being carried out by just killing the enemy. Assassinate and Slaughter are kill the enemy strategies, and claim jump & reconnoiter are ones where the enemy has to basically position himself in the center of board thus giving you the option to go kill him.

As for schemes, hold Out is almost a gimme when it comes to VPs and Bodyguard is an easy to to achieve when you have a flesh construct standing by. That's 4 VPs right there . . .

I'm not sounding the alarms yet and saying it's broken and must be fixed. It just makes me wonder how someone could come back from being 14SS down. And that's just flesh constructs. Two more canines (for a 25 SS game) and you can start placing desolation engines.