Tactica: Pandora

[Kealios]

I played my first game with Pandora tonight. 30ss with Candy, Kade, Teddy, and 2 Sorrows. I knew I was going to run a few things incorrectly, and Kade and Candy got wacked early on. I had a Sorrow linked to each one, and on retrospect should have kept one for Pandora herself. My sneaky opponent actually knew to focus fire on the Sorrows, and killed Candy's before she could heal it and then Kade's went soon after.

[report is here ]

I was playing Viktoria, with Taelor, Hans and Bishop. On turn 6, I was down to Pandora only, who had both Viktorias standing in melee range of her, 6 wounds taken, and hannibal still had Taelor and Hans left (but reasonably far away).

Pandora was in trouble. She had taken 3 wounds, and the two Viks activated simultaneously.

The two failed 5 of 6 WP tests to target her, meaning 5 more damage to them. The one that hit did 3 damage and Pandora was down to 3 Wd.

Then Pandora went. She cast Project Emotions and Cheated to get a solid cast off. The one Vik failed and therefore the other did. I used that for "Pity" Then I cast Self-Loathing on one Vik who had 3 Wd remaining and killed her. Then I cast SL again on the other who, at the start of Pandora's turn had 5 Wd left, landed it, and killed her (1 for the PE, one for SL and then 3 for the damage her sword did to herself).

Bottom line? We think Pandora is more of a Front-Line master who masquerades as a back-row caster. I think I needed a way to keep a defensive screen in front of her and lure opponents in to melee range, but this is just a theory. A Sorrow to link to her and use Siphon Magic would have been a nice thing, as well as a way to shunt damage to.

She is the finesse character I knew she would be, but proved by my "Pandora's near lack of defense" thread, I didnt trust in Expose Fears to save her. It really did.

I'm going to tinker with her support crew and try again.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Kealios
added battle report link

[chaos45]

Yes from what we can see Pandora will be better against melee forces especially since she can push 4 inches away from them everytime they fail a WP check.

Thus, if they fail the first attack WP odds are they wont get a second swing due to the 4 inch push. Honestly after getting a couple more games in it looks like Criid is just the one master Pandora has alot of trouble with, due to the heavy anti-magic abilities, AoE, and ranged fire esp Samuel- his RoF 3 on 1 target with flaming bullets is instant death if he doesnt have to move esp with his trigger hit another model in 3 inches.

Almost 4 starters painted up at current and Pandora was the 3rd one painted, but mainly cause its one of the easier ones to paint imo.

[goblyn13]

Take a Totem, With the Poltergeist, pandora's favored totem it gives you a bit of ground control. or the other option, is to take Primordial Magic which will give you arcane reservoir allowing you to increase your control hand by one.

The other option is to consider adding a Doppleganger, as the Doppleganger will help in Initiative as it causes your opponent to draw at Fate -1, add the ability to copy and having Kade and Kade the second in melee makes for a very nasty combo.

[Kealios]

Yes from what we can see Pandora will be better against melee forces especially since she can push 4 inches away from them everytime they fail a WP check.

Thus, if they fail the first attack WP odds are they wont get a second swing due to the 4 inch push.

You know, I mostly forgot about this until it was Pandora's activation, when she used it once to skate backwards to cast from safety. What I DID do, however, was stand toe-to-toe with the 2 Viks, forcing them to make a WP Duel every Action they chose to swing at me. Gun-Vik failed 3 times, taking 3 damage (too bad I didnt have a Sorrow on hand - but it would have just been charged easrly on), and Sword-Vik failed her first 2 times. It was a nice damage boost (he was out of Control cards so it wasnt as risky as it sounds) that allowed me to kill them both the next round.

Good ideas on the Doppleganger and Poltergeist. Maybe I will make room for them at 35ss.

[dboeren]

I like Pandora's concept, but I'm just not a fan of the Candy or Kade models. Fortunately I have no problem with proxying models that don't exist yet. What do you all suggest taking with her in a list that has neither Candy nor Kade? I'm fine with the Sorrows or any of the other released Neverborn models, and I'm just not familiar at all with the unreleased stuff until my book arrives probably Wednesday or Thursday. What other models can provoke a WP duel?

Also, can someone explain the difference between the normal Pandora model and the Avatar version? Is this just an alternate sculpt or does it have different abilities in the game?

Thanks!

[TheBugKing]

Also, can someone explain the difference between the normal Pandora model and the Avatar version? Is this just an alternate sculpt or does it have different abilities in the game?

Thanks!

Well Avatar rules have not been released yet...

Hope that helps!

:flute:

[goblyn13]

I like Pandora's concept, but I'm just not a fan of the Candy or Kade models. Fortunately I have no problem with proxying models that don't exist yet. What do you all suggest taking with her in a list that has neither Candy nor Kade? I'm fine with the Sorrows or any of the other released Neverborn models, and I'm just not familiar at all with the unreleased stuff until my book arrives probably Wednesday or Thursday. What other models can provoke a WP duel?

Also, can someone explain the difference between the normal Pandora model and the Avatar version? Is this just an alternate sculpt or does it have different abilities in the game?

Thanks!

Wow, without Kade and Candy, that's an interesting proposition, since those are Pandora's Heavy Hitters. You can take Sorrows, they are a must really as they can help in the willpower duels(aka inflict damage on fails). You can add in Teddy, he's a big' ol construct (demonic teddy bear). You can add in Terror Tots as they run well and give your army some serious speed, And there is the Doppelganger, which is a shapeshifting dynamo, who adds a nifty ability that he causes your opponent to draw Initiative at Fate -1 (nasty nasty ability)

As for the Avatar Pandora, she's an alternate model right now, however there are plans in the works for having Avatars of all of the masters.

[Brasidas]

Avatar version has no rules as yet, she'll be addressed in the future, apparently.

[Thortheviking]

I've been playing Pandora against a Perdita crew almost exclusively since the release of the book. It is true that in wide open boards, her crew will outshoot and probably destroy Pandora's crew before her crew really sink their teeth into any of the Guild's shooters. However, there shouldn't really be any wide open fields. Between the amount of terrain that should be played and the fact that you alternate placing, the Pandora player should be able to create areas of cover while she and her folks approach the killing zone.

Additionally, I would agree that at smaller points costs it is difficult to make Pandora's crew effective (without including non woes). Playing a Treasure hunt with Pandora against Perdita is almost impossible in a 6 turn game in a low point cost game.

But with a larger list, sufficient cover, and decent strategy flip, Pandora's crew can hold their own against Perdita (whose crew is ideal for destroying Woe crews). I even won one of the games. I was able to cause 3-4 wounds at a time due to failed WP tests.

Don't discount this Master. Once you get the feel for combining effects, her crew is Brutal.

[Kealios]

I'm glad you brought this up. I was just pondering her versus Lady J.

We all know that Perdita's See the Unseen gets around Pandora's Expose Fears because The Box Opens is specific while See the Unseen isnt...therefore, Pandora has no defense against Perdita.

Forget Perdita! Lady J can give this same ability to EVERYONE with Blind Justice! Suddenly, this spells bad things. I wonder if these spells/abilities bypass Harmless? (I think not, since those dont require a test to target, but rather to hit)

Since the last time I played Pandora she took out the two Viks by relying on Expose Fears, I think this would spell doom on her and her Crew. Any ideas?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Forget Perdita! Lady J can give this same ability to EVERYONE with Blind Justice! Suddenly, this spells bad things. I wonder if these spells/abilities bypass Harmless? (I think not, since those dont require a test to target, but rather to hit)

Everyone within 6" of Lady Justice yes. But sadly it doesn't include herself. (as per the Aura/Pulse rules on pg. 25)

And yes Blind Justice & See the Unseen will bypass Harmless as their wording is: 'ignore increases in Rg and Df, and any Duels required from spells or talents to target models.

And Harmless states you have to pass a Wp->12 Duel when targeting this model with an attack.

[Kealios]

Interesting. I had read the entries of both Expose Fears and Harmless and had thought they shared different enough requirements that Harmless would remain intact, but I suppose not. I dont like that spell/ability at all. At ALL

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

That's why you Pacify Lady Justice pronto!

Or throw a Teddy/Bad Juju at her.

[Kealios]

You have a point on the Pacify. However...oh nevermind, she isnt Stubborn against non-Undead. Woot!

I have a problem losing initiative, so this may not be a reliable option. Even burning SS to reflip gets me nothing. Usually

I was thinking of adding Hamlin into Pandora's crew because he has a plethora of nasty (and long range!) WP-Duel spells. Problem is, he costs 10 for Pandora, and as my buddy Hannibal says, taking beef out of her list in the form of Teddy or Juju would unbalance the list. Bummer...such potential...

[Thortheviking]

I'm glad you brought this up. I was just pondering her versus Lady J.

I haven't played against Lady Justice, but, I have some thoughts anyway:

1. Pandora should always be behind cover or other height 2 or 3 models. This should help increase survivability from people who don't have to take a WP test due to ignoring.

2. Blind Justice is a spell, so it would have to be recast every turn for it to be effective, additionally, Lady Justice would have to activate early to get the spell off and make it beneficial to the most members of her crew.

3. I always keep Pandora in the rear of the army ( I haven't been outflanked yet, so i'm sure I'll get this thrown in my face shortly).....if people are shooting her, they are probably within 12 inches. Since i keep the rest of my army between Pandora and any assailants, it is probable that my entire army is within 12 inches of that attacker also. Since Pandora can use soul stones to prevent wounds, and also pass successful attacks to Woes in base contact, killing her outright may not be as easy as everyone is suggesting. Furthermore, if you don't kill Pandora in that gambit, you now have (besides baby, candy and teddy) multiple sorrows within 3 inches and/or linked to cause wounds upon activation, or, if I get priority and force you to take WP test before Lady J can reactivate Blind Justice in the next turn.

Anyway, I don't think it's hopeless. Pandora has been tough to play with, but every game I've been getting better, noticing more combos, and actually executing them at an appropriate time. I played against the guild in a "forested" board last night......That'll learn those gun slingers.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

2. Blind Justice is a spell, so it would have to be recast every turn for it to be effective, additionally, Lady Justice would have to activate early to get the spell off and make it beneficial to the most members of her crew.

That's why suggest Pacifying her first thing. Dropping her to being the last model that's activated in her crew is such an awesome thing.

Then she has to activate last.

Or throw Teddy or other nuisances at her that she has to deal with more than casting that spell.

[Thortheviking]

That's why suggest Pacifying her first thing. Dropping her to being the last model that's activated in her crew is such an awesome thing.

I agree Pacify is the solution. However, I am not always successful with Pacify/Incite. Lady J has a respectable WP, along with cheating and Soul stone flip n' add....there is no assurance that she will be pacified.

I just wanted to lay out all the factors I could think of that would put Pandora at a disadvantage to Lady J. I still think that, with the luck of the draw, it is not hopeless. In fact, hopefully I have linked enough sorrows to other models, that they'll want to deal with some of those before Lady J activates, or else they'll just get wounds upon (sorrow's) activation for no reason. Maybe Lady J will pacify herself....

[hannibal]

I was thinking of adding Hamlin into Pandora's crew because he has a plethora of nasty (and long range!) WP-Duel spells. Problem is, he costs 10 for Pandora, and as my buddy Hannibal says, taking beef out of her list in the form of Teddy or Juju would unbalance the list. Bummer...such potential...

We could just increase to 40 or 45 Soulstones. . . . :deal:

[Thortheviking]

at 40 stones Pandora's crew really shines. So many WP-> forced, so many sorrows within 3 inches.....

My question for the group is....in a largish Brawl (60-70stones), how effective will it be to have pandora, kade, candy, teddy, poltergeist, and (maybe hooded rider), with only sorrows to fill out the rest of your stone allotment? I want to do a themed list with Only Pandora's crew. I don't mind if it is difficult to win, I just don't want to create a list that my opponent thinks is boring, or purposely skewed to be a jerk. The theme should be fun. Thoughts?

[capcap]

Thanks for the posts guys. I'm going to try Pandora in some upcoming games with Teddy and the rider as some beef to her list. In my game I lost 2 of 3 sorrows in 2 turns and lost baby kade as well. At that point I messed up my opponent somewhat with the whole falls back spell effect which seems to be one of the best weapons Pandora has right now.

[Mala Fide]

Just read through the tactica and to be honest I didn't realise the amount of things Pandora could do. To be honest only bought her crew because of the evil baby figures and the idea of a demon teddy.

On a related issue, does anyone know teddy's release date in the UK?

[goblyn13]

Just read through the tactica and to be honest I didn't realise the amount of things Pandora could do. To be honest only bought her crew because of the evil baby figures and the idea of a demon teddy.

On a related issue, does anyone know teddy's release date in the UK?

for teddy, He hasn't been released in the US (and with Wyrd, Its a one release fits all kinda thing) so it'll be a bit.

[Thortheviking]

you could always sculpt a proxy till the model comes out.....http://wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?t=7740

[goblyn13]

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention, check out the ability on the Doppelganger, Ill Omens, it makes your opponent drawing at :mali-fate for initiative. Which helps to ensure that Pandora will be going first every turn, granted at 8ss he's not cheap, but he has a few other nifty abilities.

[Kealios]

Goblyn, Ive been looking hard at the Doppleganger. With little work he can also have Lilith's 8 Df and her massive sword, albeit without the auto-:mali+fate on damage, buts range and damage exceed what it comes with...