demonherald Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I realize that, but I think simply the fact that I have to be able to place the thing on a gaming table (something I will never, ever do) will take away some of the fun for me. I will likely, at some point, have to scrap ideas due to this limitation, and settle for something I'm not as inspired to do, and I would never be able to present the things the way I would want to due to the limitations of the competition. Thus, it's better for me to stay out... I know where your coming from there.. painting tie is limited enough..... personally i wouldn't be interested i entering but don't mind doing the judging organising help kind of thing.. I literally have so many paining commitments that I don't have the time to spend on gaming or terrain currently and for the pretty much forseeable future.. No oneelse (well that I associate with regularly) round here games.. painting I need me a figure some paints and brushes and away Igo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ritual Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well, I for one do not want people to drop out because they feel limited by the contest, that was my whole point! So if Ritual wants to make a cool big scenic base for his entry, I encourage it! After all, the whole point of the contests is to encourage people to hobby more...not less. So please drop the "terrain = gaming" thing and make it just as accessible for painters or diorama builders. The more the merrier! Make terrain, not war...! :hippie: Thanks, Marijn! I'm fine with either, really! If you want to make a Terrain (as in gaming terrain) competition, which, I realize, probably would be easier to administrate, I fully understand. I just thought a terrain competition (in the wider sense of the word) would be a way for me to get off my ass and do a couple of more involved pieces that I can later put miniatures on. My work usually starts with a miniature and then I do a base for it, and at that point I mostly settle for a rather regular sized base area. It's just that the point for me to do things like this would be to make a nice display piece, and limitations such as the edges having to "blend" into a gaming table would make things a little less fun for me. It would be similar to painting a mini, but not being allowed to use any green. Sure, I could do it, and it might become a really nice looking mini in the end. But, what if I think that green is just the right colour for something on the mini? Stupid example, perhaps, but illustrates the feeling rather well, I think. But, set up the competition the way that will be the easiest and best way to administrate it. I might join, or I might skip it. We'll see... I'll try to make a terrain-piece (non-capital 't') sometime soon, regardless... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBugKing Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 So how about this: If the piece is clearly for gaming it gets a bonus point. Yes you would be hurting yourself by not making a gaming piece but given your evident skill Ritual I don't think it would hurt you much. Although I still think that leaving it completely open would be ok. I don't see a relevant difference between a piece like Bexly's dio and an actual objective piece. Bex's sculpting and desert treatment qualifies as a good example of terrain in my book. It wouldn't be able to have the figures on it to enter though. I think perhaps what should be allowed is a pitch to the judges if you are unsure about including some scenic figures. If the judges say it's OK then go for it. It does put more of an impetus on the judging team and it's likely that what one accepts another will turn down but that is also cool. It adds to the challenge of the comp and further decreases the smarmy "I did this already and I'll go ahead and enter it cause I can" crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hinton Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Wow; seems there is quite a bit of interest in this. From my point-of-view, I would prefer to see it as "terrain" and not "Terrain". The idea would be to create a scenic environment; whether it will be used for gaming or dioramas wouldn't figure into scoring/judging/voting. I think it could work in an Iron format, but it would take some work to get the details and rules hammered out. As was mentioned, would things like Hirst Arts blocks (which I also enjoy using) be allowed? Would everything have to be scratch-built or would a certain amount of pre-made items be accepted? Would the judges be able to tell the difference? Having it as a "straight" competition, much like Femme Fatale or Rotten Harvest, would give people more time to work on their entries and things could be broken down into categories. However, we wouldn't want to get over-specialized. It could be broken down into size categories; after that, people can make it whatever setting they want. Either way, the same questions would be relevant to either format (what is allowed and what isn't). Like DH, I had the idea of each round being a different size. It could either be that the base size grew larger or smaller as the rounds progressed. All-in-all, we would want it to stay fun and be something for the community as a whole. I would like to see people that don't usually do terrain getting involved and really stretching their limits, much like IP does in regards to painting. Ok, better get back to work (I'm not allowed to access the site from there, so I popped home real quick). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malebolgia Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 @TBK: But why would a gaming piece get bonus points? Sounds a bit animal farmey to me. If I make a WARMACHINE gaming piece of a Cryx Necrotite mining facility and Anders makes a diorama of a Steampunk railroad piece (which he will later use for a diorama for a painting contest or whatever), why does my gaming piece gets bonus points? Where's the logic in that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterdita Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Maybe diaromas could be its own category or something. After all we are trying to make things to scale, and without a miniature to reference scale, For me would be hard to picture and therefore understand the size and quality of it. If you make a sweet looking house thats just a bit to small for the figures then its not so sweet anymore. Or maybe require one pic to have a mini/lighter/coin in it so we can see scale. I like a non iron format, one shot deal with some of the ideas Rob has already mentioned. You could still do a short time frame or whatever but an epic terrain building commitment would push me away. And yeah, try and let people do whatever they want, so we can all have fun and get something we want for whatever reason out of it in the end. But I'm down whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supervike Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I really love the idea, and would be semi-interested in being a participant. I'd love to know how it feels to be on the other side of this sort of thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brushmistress Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I really love the idea, and would be semi-interested in being a participant. I'd love to know how it feels to be on the other side of this sort of thing! Oh now we have to have this - I wanna see Jim enter something and have some fun for a change!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ritual Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Are you saying you want Jim to have fun. or that you want to have fun on Jim's expense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBugKing Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 @ Malbolgia The +1 point was merely a tip of the hat the "T"errain vs the terrain argument. The ONLY restrictions I personally would want is a box dimension that the piece would have to fit into (Or cylinder, what ever.) I could see this using the IP format but only for one round as well. You place where you place after that one round, no eliminations. Either that or maybe one elimination round and one group competition after that. The thing that I am really sticking to is the time frame. That is what will really push me and I am looking for that with reguards to terrain building. One of the things you guys may wnat to take a look at is how Terragenesis does their terrain comps. A winner sets up a theme and fields questions about what actually qualifies to be entered. Once in a while people get DQed because they don't follow the theme properly. This could be morphed to cover pretty much anything really. Perhaps the organizer is the one who makes that decision? that way if someone wanted to keep their piece secret they still could. Just bouncing ideas out there now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brushmistress Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Are you saying you want Jim to have fun. or that you want to have fun on Jim's expense? Yes? :tongue2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonherald Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I think rather than get hung upon the gaming vs display element on this thread at least a simple yes I'd be interested and keep me posted of further details if ya don't mind would be good ...:...the detals hammered on another thread sometime own he line..... The fact that the Bug King's nest has been stirred by the gameability vs prettyness debate says that there is something there to nail down pre comp... Maybe a small elimination or even league like points system could be worked out.. either way the key is tight deadlines pressure cooker to an extent letting imagination and creativity take centre stage....and most of all Fun Fun Fun.........An opportunity for people who don't normaly do it to get the brain working on the whole "scenery" Terrain /terrain making thing and have a blast while doing it .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBugKing Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Great call DH. I started ANOTHER thread to just show interest: http://wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?t=5483 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonherald Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Okay then ... sign up and shout yo on the poll thread and hammer some details put suggestions into the hat on this one.... Something tells me the bug is bouncing about this one...not sure what just something.... I'll put my name down on the seting up and sorting out the details side of things maybe a PM from anyone else wating to help out there (Brian??) and things can start to shape up.. Word of warning though it won't be a sometime in the next few weeks kind of thing the current events timing will have to be taken into consideration as well as a heap ofstuff to sort ot.. Maybe a one off comp as a dry run will emerge first to gague actual interest over thread shout interest. all good fun.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moavoamoatu Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 It can't be exactly as IP. I think you should not pair people for a terrain contest. The best entries go to round 2 and so on. You could start with categories and each winner in a category goes to the next round. If we have many rounds, it should start with simple pieces and go forward up to more complicated pieces of terrain or scenery. You can also do it as a one shot contest such as Femme Fatale, TT or Rotten Harvest contests and if people are interested then think about a kind of IP contest. BTW I am interested in organising it and why not being a judge (that would change). If I have to enter such a contest it can't be before september. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonherald Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 one idea is the escalation simple to complex points accumulated league style.... the knocout could work but I think it would be much more fun without it forpartcipations sake... depending on numbers groups of 4 or 5 with 1 2 3 4 5 points given for placing within that group .. added together at the end?? so many different ways ... That said the later rounds of IP always force people to push their gae so knockouts are great in that respect but for starters I think it would just be good to get everyone building ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabberwocky Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Interesting stuff! Along the lines of Terrain vs. terrain, it had been mentioned earlier to utilize categories to help contestants and judges equalize the playing field a bit. Would it be possible to have a "display" category? Display pieces must be placed on a plinth or other "non terrain" base, where as the Terrain pieces would be required to blend with the surrounding table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Just a thought from left field.... Maybe set up the contest as a "Terrian Idol"? (like American Idol) - where everyone gets to vote and only the top X scorers move on to the next round. So it's kinda like an Iron Painter and regular contest cross; everyone can vote on pieces in polls and have more than one round [with or without themes]. Just an idea. I'm not going to push it, just wanted to give an idea of a different format for a contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterdita Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I get to be Randy Jackson! "Yeah Dog!! That was Hot, Thanks for coming out tonight though. It's just not gonna work out dog sorry." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBugKing Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 No no! At this point all we are looking for are ideas. If you have one post it! The next bit will be to compile the ideas and talk about the various ones that people like or dislike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Caroland Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm of the opinion that using the IP format for a terrain contest wouldn't go over too well, mainly as it seems to me that there is a goodly bit more work to put into terrain, with or without the capital T, and by far I expect there would be a good deal less participants than we generally get in an Iron Painter or Wyrd Painting Contest. Folks will note, and some have already commented, that we haven't followed the exact contest course that we have in the past couple of years (meaning Femme Fatale didn't start up at the first of the year) and it has been discussed for some time publicly and privately that we're wanting to change things up a little bit in order to allow for some reorganizing and so that we don't get stagnant. A terrain contest was bandied about. Perhaps doing a straight up terrain contest would be a good way to test the waters, use the WPC format, or possibly get a judging group going, dunno, but take a dip and see what comes of it. Could do categories either by size or genre or even add some specialized themes. With or without miniatures. One thing I'm not too keen on is doing the gaming vs. painting bits as folks have brought that up in the past with being worried that we started out as a painting forum and now that we're working on a game as well worried that the 'painters' will get pushed out by the 'gamers'. Far from it if I can help it as I am a painter/hobbiest first and a gamer second, though Eric and some of the others flow the other way ... either way, we're wanting to keep this a fun and successful place for folks from all corners and interests. See some folks eager and willing and as always we're willing to accomodate and a few folks that have popped their hands up for organizing or working on it have my confidence from time past so whatever is decided upon in the long run I'll be happy to try and make it as easy and succesful as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skya Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'll poke my nose in here having been a part of Iron Painter since the very start. First off, I think it's a great idea. However, I expect you will get fewer participants. (I'm not interested, though I'd be happy to judge.) Given a smaller group of people the who do you get paired up against thing becomes a *much* larger issue. In order to eliminate that I'd recommend a the top scoring half of each round advances. This forces people to try their best each and every round, not advancing just on a lucky DNF. If you end up with 50 people instead of 10 entering this is less of an issue. That said I dont think the accumulated point idea will work well. Accumulated points require a very strong amount of consistency in scoring by the judges; not just within each round, which the IP judges do well, but from round to round. You'd really need to lay out rules with a break down of what each point level means to use as guidelines so you dont have three different judges using three different measuring sticks and occassionally changing the size of the stick in between rounds. With a system that does NOT keep track of the accumulated points you end up giving the judges an easier time because they only have to compare the pieces in the round they are judging and not neccessarily the ones they've judged in the past. Personally, in terms of restrictions I'd just stick with a simple 1 foot by 1goot square size limitation. Gaming vs diorama should be irrelivant. These arent being scored on telling a story, they're being scored on setting a scene. Creating a space that you can plunk figures into later. It doesnt matter if those figures will be gaming guys who are just wandering through or the pieces of a diorama that will permanently tell a story, because it will all be judged on the same merits. I see absolutely no reason people shouldnt be able to use Hirsht art blocks and such. The real question in terms of scoring is what is the end result, not how you got there. 1: How well is it built and painted 2: How well does the theme come through 3: What is the overall impression of the piece. Overall impression for terrain is going to be a lot more influenced by composistion, mood and cool construction in a terrain building competiotion. Where as in Iron Painter it's much more about the impact of the story being told, the effectiveness of the color pallate and the overall "pop" of the piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ritual Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) It seems a growing consensus over a few basic rules is taking shape: 1. size limitations: yes 2. theme: yes 3. short time-frame: yes 4. miniatures included: no (unless they are an integral part of the scenery, e.g. statues, corpses etc.) Am I right here? About materials, Hirsht art blocks etc., I think everything that can be considered as materials should be allowed. Even small, pre-cast items, such as lamp posts, window frames, tree stumps etc. should be allowed. Complete, pre-cast scenery items, however, things that can be used as scenery as-is after being painted, should not be allowed. That is, ready-made buildings, sets of ruins, rock formations etc. would be dis-allowed. Thoughts about this? I think judges will be able to see pretty well how much scratch-building is involved in a certain entry. And, if someone heavily relies on pre-cast items in their constructions it will influence the judging on technical skill. So, in my eyes, it's not a problem allowing pre-cast items, as long as they're clearly building elements and not complete, ready-to-use products. Edited February 13, 2009 by Ritual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonherald Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 pretty much yeah Anders..... a pretty good summary so far...... Add onto that that the chances of an IP format won't work ..(at least not initially ) and its starting to develop a shape as such ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ritual Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 It might be a good idea to have require pre-painting photos of the entries, so all can see a bit of how the terrain has been built and what types of materials have been used etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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