The year of the guild...!or not...

[Fazza92]

Hi all,

At the start of the year ,with the new GG18 and the new models, we all have see a spark in the night, yell that the year of the guild was come!

After 7 month ,you again think that the 18 is the guild's year?Me not.

After 7 month of games I've see that Guild is more efficient than first, thanks to some schemes and thanks to 3-4 new models, but what that I really see is that Guild is again under other factions.

Most of our masters aren't competitive, and the most competitive has a lot of bad enemies in all other factions.

Nellie is the only good  master ,but is necessary a good eye to perform a good game, and other factions have master that can do more or less same thing .

Hoffman is really strong, but you can play Hoffman only when Strategy and schemes are combined, and not against Resser or TT.

Lady Justice is good only against Resser,maybe only against Reva and Nicodem.

Perdita is good but now she has a cache ridiculous compared to others beater in other factions(2 SS an upgrade for have a 0 that can permit her to ignore armor or cover, Reva for 2SS ignore damage reduction with an in-built crow).

Do you again think that Guild is strong?I think that we continue to have a lot of problem and that probably our combination of master and minion is the worst of the game.

Guild can be out-activated very easily and we have not pieces with a good mobility and high def (not tell my to play 2-3 watcher because I hate proxy),we have not good draw engine(most of the times we need to discard card on card to play ability or attack) and we haven't pieces that can control enemy models...So my verdict (log faux is with me in this sense) is that Guild in gg18 is 100 times more better than in GG17,but at the end we sucks again...

 

[SAYNE]

Guild still feels like middle of the pack to me, apart from gg17, has always felt relatively balanced. You don't have any awful masters anymore, (except maybe mcMourning, but it's a choice to bring him anyway) and your range of useful minions is increasing dramatically. 

I would say Guild still somewhat suffers from being overly specialized, sans Nellie but that is one of the "staple" weaknesses of the faction. Just like TT struggles with armor, Neverborn is squish like Gremlins, Arcanists... Just kinda suffer, Ressers tend to have weakest early game etc. Now these are generalizations and NOT rules, but it's fair that Guild has a weakness in this regard. 

Out activation is always an issue in a faction where lots of big models cost a lot, but with the recent Guild Guard decrease and their usefulness as scheme runners I definitely haven't seen more than a model or two difference to start with most games I've played, which is usually overcome relatively early with Guilds high AVs and higher damage tracks. 

Most factions don't exclusively have a card draw engine either, it's usually a master or specific combo that allows it, and Lucius is getting infamous for how GOOD Deep Pockets is (I'd throw condescending in there too if your opponents regularly draw tons of cards). 

Lastly, someone does have to come in last place. It isn't always a great feeling, and I'm fairly certain that Guild is not the worst faction, but even if it was, would that matter? Guild can win *almost* as easily as any faction, and it did have a period of time where it was THE winning faction. It happens all the time and could always happen again. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for my gremgrems to be clear winners.

 

[Ludvig]

@Fazza92 I'm not in a position to say which faction is the best or worst but I need to ask a few questions about your statements and offer a few of my own.

How are we weak in the activation game with guild guard and hounds as well as Nellie? I thought we had strong activation game compared to a lot of factions.

I'm pretty sure our wave 4 and 5 minions are far from the worst in the game. Do you use the latest releases like the ones that allow any non master to ignore all reductions?

No mention at all of Sonnia or McCabe? I find them both strong in the right pool. From my perspective if a single master is always the best pick in any pool that is poor design of that master/faction.

[4thstringer]

1 hour ago, Fazza92 said:

Hi all,

At the start of the year ,with the new GG18 and the new models, we all have see a spark in the night, yell that the year of the guild was come!

 After 7 month ,you again think that the 18 is the guild's year?Me not.

 After 7 month of games I've see that Guild is more efficient than first, thanks to some schemes and thanks to 3-4 new models, but what that I really see is that Guild is again under other factions.

 Most of our masters aren't competitive, and the most competitive has a lot of bad enemies in all other factions.

Nellie is the only good  master ,but is necessary a good eye to perform a good game, and other factions have master that can do more or less same thing .

 Hoffman is really strong, but you can play Hoffman only when Strategy and schemes are combined, and not against Resser or TT.

Lady Justice is good only against Resser,maybe only against Reva and Nicodem.

Perdita is good but now she has a cache ridiculous compared to others beater in other factions(2 SS an upgrade for have a 0 that can permit her to ignore armor or cover, Reva for 2SS ignore damage reduction with an in-built crow).

Do you again think that Guild is strong?I think that we continue to have a lot of problem and that probably our combination of master and minion is the worst of the game.

Guild can be out-activated very easily and we have not pieces with a good mobility and high def (not tell my to play 2-3 watcher because I hate proxy),we have not good draw engine(most of the times we need to discard card on card to play ability or attack) and we haven't pieces that can control enemy models...So my verdict (log faux is with me in this sense) is that Guild in gg18 is 100 times more better than in GG17,but at the end we sucks again...

 

No mention of Sonnia, Lucius or McCabe?

Here is my take on it.  I think we are stronger than we have been, but we didn't have a killer master.  Since the errata has come down, I think we have only gotten stronger.  TT is in a really nice place right now, but according to Logfaux they are not even a statistically significant amount better than we are.  I suspect if I play a TT player and beat them tonight, the Guild would no longer be at the bottom of the chart.  

Has your experience with Guild not been very successful in 2018?   I've been winning at a higher rate than I did in GG2017.  Honestly it is hard to tell if I am playing more games against weaker players or what, but its felt a lot better for me.

 

[admiralvorkraft]

I've had success for years playing Guild against type. Now we have an awesome spread of cheap utility minions. Lucius went from good to incredible with his new upgrades. Lady J plays a strong denial/skirmish role. Sonnia has solid board control...

Sure, if you lean into the "Step 1 kill things, step 2 ? Step 3 profit!" model then you're going to struggle against players and factions that play different games in different ways.

Thanks to the Family models Guild more than any other faction has been pigeonholed by the global meta despite having the tools to play in a number of different ways.

[Fazza92]

I know that Cabe is a good master but I’ve write only the name of my masters(I’ve only see he TT ).

I’ve see Sonnia play several time and I think that ‘s not a good master ,she eat too much resource and she has’nt a good output of damage.

I’ve never see Lucius nor GuildMorning.

Hoffman can make Construct near he very resilient ,but he is a guy with 10 wounds...If you take a good alpha strike or a master that can ignore damage reduction he is dead very easy,and is not easy hire more than 7 models with him.

I win more than in Gg17,but I continue a see that other factions have ever more solutions to do combination of strategy and schemes(I play Arcanist too).

And then we have too much master Francisco depending...

Lady J without Francisco can be easily killed.

Perdita too with only 10 wounds.

Sonnia has Df4 ...

Francisco is probably one of the better model in game,but is a “tax” several times beacause our Beater masters without he can be easily killed.

[4thstringer]

8 minutes ago, Fazza92 said:

I know that Cabe is a good master but I’ve write only the name of my masters(I’ve only see he TT ).

I’ve see Sonnia play several time and I think that ‘s not a good master ,she eat too much resource and she has’nt a good output of damage.

 I’ve never see Lucius nor GuildMorning.

Hoffman can make Construct near he very resilient ,but he is a guy with 10 wounds...If you take a good alpha strike or a master that can ignore damage reduction he is dead very easy,and is not easy hire more than 7 models with him.

I win more than in Gg17,but I continue a see that other factions have ever more solutions to do combination of strategy and schemes(I play Arcanist too).

And then we have too much master Francisco depending...

Lady J without Francisco can be easily killed.

Perdita too with only 10 wounds.

Sonnia has Df4 ...

Francisco is probably one of the better model in game,but is a “tax” several times beacause our Beater masters without he can be easily killed.

wew.    

I do agree that we depend more than we should on Frank.  That being said, I haven't had a problem playing without frank more often than not this year.

I promise you Sonnia isn't weak. 

You mention playing arcanists too.   Are you having success with Arcanists whose names don't end with "eep"?

I feel like guild has better pushes, better card draw, and better damage than arcanists.  Our obey masters are better than their obey masters, our damaging masters are better than their damaging masters.  Basically the only things arcanists do better than us are 1. Summon, 2. practiced production, 3. have the busted oxfordians.

[Ludvig]

@Fazza92 

As long as Hoffman is carrying his upgrade he can reduce damage no matter what the enemy says about ignoring it so he usually reduces about 3 points of damage down to a minimum of one getting through. He is not squishy unless they ignore defensive triggers but in that case many masters are squishy.

How can you know most of thr masters and faction is hopelessly useless if you haven't tried half of it?

[Fazza92]

2 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

wew.    

I do agree that we depend more than we should on Frank.  That being said, I haven't had a problem playing without frank more often than not this year.

I promise you Sonnia isn't weak. 

You mention playing arcanists too.   Are you having success with Arcanists whose names don't end with "eep"?

I feel like guild has better pushes, better card draw, and better damage than arcanists.  Our obey masters are better than their obey masters, our damaging masters are better than their damaging masters.  Basically the only things arcanists do better than us are 1. Summon, 2. practiced production, 3. have the busted oxfordians.

Yeah We probably have better master,stand alone,but I ‘ve found that other factions as more sinergy within models,better scheme runner,better non-master beater ecc ecc.Do you use Dita,Sonnia or LJ without Francisco?

[4thstringer]

Just now, Fazza92 said:

Yeah We probably have better master,stand alone,but I ‘ve found that other factions as more sinergy within models,better scheme runner,better non-master beater ecc ecc.Do you use Dita,Sonnia or LJ without Francisco?

Sure, all the time.  My last game I ran LJ without Frank and killed a charm warder, asami and a couple of obsidian oni with her.  Between the brutal effigy and her own heal when I need it, she wasn't really ever in danger.  If I am facing something that I am worried about LJ dying, I will run badge of office.

[admiralvorkraft]

@Fazza92 - What I'm saying is, drop Frank. I never bring him outside of Perdita and I do not miss him. Try playing Lucius, try playing McCabe. Build your lists with a bury/paralyze element. Or take Dashel to neuter alpha strikes.

Try actually looking at the models we have in faction and using them to solve your problems rather than starting with Frank/Phiona/Peacekeeper (or whatever) and complaining that you can't build a crew. Of course you can't, you're starting ~30ss down at that point and outside of specific strats/schemes it leaves you playing with 20ss to actually score points versus 50ss crews.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh, but you can't say that a faction is bad when you only use a tiny sliver of the models in that faction.

[Mortarion]

7 minutes ago, Fazza92 said:

Do you use Dita,Sonnia or LJ without Francisco?

I almost never play Fransisco with Lady J. And it is very rare that she dies. The only Guild master that I think "needs" Fransisco is Sonnia. Since he can fix all her downsides (low Df, Slow Wk and problems with getting stuck in close combat) he is a bit too good for her to pass up on. For other masters he is good, but you don't need to take him.

[Ludvig]

Mortarion regularly kicks my ass with both Sonnia and Lady J btw so I have trouble seibg how they are weak.

[Tors]

Oh Boy i don't even know where to start o_0 

Most

 of our masters aren't competitive, and the most competitive has a lot of bad enemies in all other factions.

Thats.... thats so wrong on so many levels, but lets brake it down for you:

Nellie is the only good  master ,but is necessary a good eye to perform a good game, and other factions

 have master that can do more or less same thing .

Well of course you need a 'good eye' to perform good, if thats what you mean. It would be sad if there were autopilot masters which don't recquire a certain skill level. I wouldn't rate Nellie the "only good master". I have yet to meet another master who can just pass activations or combine teleportation, push & slow (with 1 AP), or has general AP-Transfer and activation control ... and i didn't even mention her pseudo-defensive trigger she hands out to anyone nearby or healing or cheap mercs or... 

Have other factions good control masters? Of course! Shame if they didn't but that doesn't invalid nellies strenghts one wee bit. While i don't share the regular opinion here, that she is the Red Joker of the Guild, she remains incredible versatile and can face down most pools and enemys. 

Hoffman is really strong, but you can play Hoffman only when Strategy

 and schemes are combined, and not against Resser or TT.

while Hoff likes his bubble, thats not the only way to play him. His new Upgrades opened up a whole bunch of new options, he can be suprisingly fast, is tough as nails and hits as hard as most beaters. Don't go over board with his Robots and don't reduce him to a Support role. I have no idea why you couldn't play him against Resser. Just the Lure? Take a Domodore and your own Belle! Show those Amateur necromancers how its done! Or take a queller and watch those Bells walk. Or or or, there are more than enough options. And against TT? Easy Game, face tank a yasunori. They usually don't bring high damage attacks besides a few focused ones. Non reducable amor is your friend against those ninja people.

Lady Justice is good only against Resser,maybe only against Reva and Nicodem.

Excuse me, but rofl? Did i miss anything or do other factions come with immunity to raw damage? Combine her with one or even two recruiters and she become almost unkillable. Or is it the motherfucking best Offensive Condition removal in the game thats bothering you? Oh i know it's this other upgrade which is a bane to tara and everything using bury (so basically every Outcast nowadays)? Or the place effect that let's her hop over impassable Terrain, alive something and hop back? I kind of fail to see while she should only be used against resser... in fact i don't even think she's our best anti resser pick....

Perdita is good but now she has a c

ache ridiculous compared to others beater in other factions(2 SS an upgrade for have a 0 that can permit her to ignore armor or cover, Reva for 2SS ignore damage reduction with an in-built crow).

Perdita is the most played master of mine and between debt, fastest draw, Heroes gamble and jury its rare i need more then cache 2. Would she rock with 4? Hell Yeah! Who wouldn't? Reva has no Franc, no Papa, no jury. No cool hat. Or pistols. Reva can go suck on a corpse. Of course if you throw her in middle, grinning like a lunatic you will need more prevention, but even 4ss won't prevent stupid decisions... use your speed, range and brain to pick fights you win and drag your opponent down in the long term. Shoot their sceme runners and use every card - perdita and campany are one of the few crews who can do just that.

Do you again think that Guild is strong?I

 think that we continue to have a lot of problem and that probably our combination of master and minion is the worst of the game.

Yeah, totally and 110%. You just seem to have a very narrow view with basically every model you listed here and forgot about a whole lot of other stuff. Like Sonja, or Lucius. Both can handle most opponents and are on par with the one's listed above. McMourning has now a hiring pool almost as big as levi and McCabe is as versatile as ever.

I would rate the internal balance of Guild Masters as one of the best in game and we don't have to be afraid of any other faction.

Last year i would have said we are lacking in the Minion Department. But then came Monster Hunter. And Investigator, and Riot Breaker, and Domodare, and Queller, and Thralls (Oh those lovely thralls). Besides very very good Henchmen, those Minions doesn't have to stand back one bit.

Guild can be out-activated very easily and we have not pieces with a good mobility and high def (not tell my to play 2-3 watcher because I hate proxy),we have not good draw engine(most of the times we need to discard card on card to play ability or attack) and

 we haven't pieces that can control enemy models...So my verdict (log faux is with me in this sense) is that Guild in gg18 is 100 times more better than in GG17,but at the end we sucks again...

Most of my lists start at 8 Models. And i don't even field many Guards or Hounds or Watcher. Of course this can be out activated by Rats or Gremlin but thats not a big problem if you wield superior range or have a metric shit ton of chain activations to kill the evil stuff bothering you before it activates. Expert sleuth is your friend with securing crucial initiative. And  no mobility?! Between almost as much pushs as TT (See Thralls, Investigator, queeg, rot Breaker and and and), stalk and most masters (Sonja and J have non) having movement shenanganis... 

My verdict is not the guild suck, but you should definitly play more.

[Fazza92]

You have right I need more play,but last time I’ve founding a little boring play Malifaux,with a lot of opponent that can easy draw 9/10 card per turn,too much mobility,too much model that can do damage without reduction (Hoffman say that enemy cannot ignore Armor,his defensive trigger is not an armor,so for example Zipp or Reva can Kill him easily ,and the run away with their impressive movement)...

For example the last game I do against gremlins was boring and traumatic when I lose Nino at first enemy activation on first turn,lose a monster hunter on first enemy activation on second turn...then 10 models with lot of mobility that can go out of los e place scheme to make point.

Anyway I consider my self a good player,with Colette,Kaeris and Ironsides logfaux tell me a 83% ratio win( all in GG17)

and in Gg 18 I play only Guild and I’ve a 66% ratio of win.

Maybe I ‘m only bored to fight with master like Zipp,Reva or Nicodem that are too much overpower...

[Fazza92]

1 minute ago, Fazza92 said:

You have right I need more play,but last time I’ve founding a little boring play Malifaux,with a lot of opponent that can easy draw 9/10 card per turn,too much mobility,too much model that can do damage without reduction (Hoffman say that enemy cannot ignore Armor,his defensive trigger is not an armor,so for example Zipp or Reva can Kill him easily ,and the run away with their impressive movement)...

For example the last game I do against gremlins was boring and traumatic when I lose Nino at first enemy activation on first turn,lose a monster hunter on first enemy activation on second turn...then 10 models with lot of mobility that can go out of los e place scheme to make point.

Anyway I consider my self a good player,with Colette,Kaeris and Ironsides logfaux tell me a 83% ratio win( all in GG17)

and in Gg 18 I play only Guild and I’ve a 66% ratio of win.

Maybe I ‘m only bored to fight against master like Zipp,Reva or Nicodem that are too much overpower...

 

[Ludvig]

Did you miss what happened to Nico the other day?! His card draw draw was severely reduced and his summons now come in on one wound.

Hoffman's ability says that enemy models can't ignore armour and that models may reduce damage regardless of enemy effects stating otherwise. Nowhere does it state they can only reduce with armour regardless of other effects so any reduction gains that bonus.

[Tors]

Last time i played against Gremlins i lost Abuela t1 to Rami, securing my opponent 3 Points for vendetta and i proceded having a hell of a game,  which ended in a draw as he prevented the needed 2dmg with this last stone, rescuing his master from being assassinated by perdita (played only with her Cache of 2...)  and thous denying me last points for eleminate.

Again i don't think the masters or the "newest" bane of the game here 'Alphastrikes' are your problem. Countering those is merely a matter of exercise. It's just an early starting piece trade and usually ressource intensive. Usually the psychological pressure is the worst about it. Keep cool, play on. 

[admiralvorkraft]

That attack on Zipp probably needs a nerf - there's a reason Grab and Drop is a (0) and Up We Go (or whatever it's called) is significantly better. But that doesn't mean that our masters are somehow invalid.

[Fazza92]

4 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

That attack on Zipp probably needs a nerf - there's a reason Grab and Drop is a (0) and Up We Go (or whatever it's called) is significantly better. But that doesn't mean that our masters are somehow invalid.

Yeah,Zipp need a nerf surely.

Reva too with her crazy range (he can run 25 “ in a turn and make 3 attacks that cannot be reduced and prevented,choosing where stat hit).

So guys,my last question ,do you win most of the time or do you draw most of the time ?

[Ludvig]

3 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

Yeah,Zipp need a nerf surely.

Reva too with her crazy range (he can run 25 “ in a turn and make 3 attacks that cannot be reduced and prevented,choosing where stat hit).

So guys,my last question ,do you win most of the time or do you draw most of the time ?

I lose most of my games playing arcanists vs mostly guild right now. 

A 66% win percentage is very close to a 77% win percentage unless you have played an insane amount of games so I'm not sure how much that statistic says. Considering a change of faction can likely lead to needing to learn a lot of new stuff while at the same time figuring out the new schemes I think it's pretty natural to lose more if you had played arcanists before 2017 and just switched to guild this year.

[Impact UK]

@Fazza92 It sort of reads like the grass is greener on the other side.

Something has changed in Guild this year, Francisco is no longer that must have model and has some serous competition for his place in a crew.  Guild Guard at 3ss is just great and a pair of them have been responsible for more than a couple of my wins this year.

As for most of the Guild masters not being competitive, well most of the time this all comes down to the player TBH but the only master I have not been seeing competitively is McMorning.  Personally I have had good results with Sonnia and Dita this year along with Nellie, my next test is to see how well I can do with Lucius in a tournament.

In regards to card draw you need to look at the Guild counters, Witchling Stalkers, Witchling Handlers & Guild Austringer.

[admiralvorkraft]

I lose most of my games period, because my most common opponent is incredibly good at the game. I've won or taken second in tournaments in four states. Mostly with Guild though I've also solo'd Jack Daw and Ramos.

Heck, pre-errata Lucius and Guild McMourning got me to a top table at an (admittedly small) tournament back in the day. We're definitely stronger than that now.

[cbtb11235813]

19 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

I’ve see Sonnia play several time and I think that ‘s not a good master ,she eat too much resource and she has’nt a good output of damage.

You've obviously never played against a good Sonnia player if you think her damage output is subpar. Yea she takes some support, but when your opponent has no models on the table come turn 3, that doesn't matter a whole lot

[Impact UK]

17 minutes ago, cbtb11235813 said:

You've obviously never played against a good Sonnia player if you think her damage output is subpar. Yea she takes some support, but when your opponent has no models on the table come turn 3, that doesn't matter a whole lot

I guess Sonnia has not got the best single target damage out put that is not her thing, it is those blasts that blanket the opposing crew and if you can add a dash of burning to the mix it is a regular night out at "Sonnia's BBQ & Grill".