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4thstringer

Messing around with a Nellie list. Your thoughts?

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I've written previously (probably over year ago now) about using Nellie with a thalarian stone to trigger a ton of run from the truth.   I've come up with a list I'd like to run into a game of guard the stash.  It didn't kill so often as push models back and slow them using Nellie, Allison Dade and others.

This variation uses watchers to build up more evidence and alternative facts to draw me cards so I can make more attacks miss, thus getting more pushes from run from the truth.  Before I pushed those models into clockwork traps, but I didn't really have the points in this version, and they really are bad risks with take prisoner in the pool.

Declared Faction: Guild 
Crew Name: rd 2 nellie 50ss 
Leader: Nellie Cochrane - Cache:(4)
   The Thalarian Stone 1ss 
   Guild Funds 1ss 
   Alternate Facts 2ss 
The Printing Press 3ss 
Allison Dade 8ss 
   Lead Lined Coat 1ss 
   Transparency 1ss 
Phiona Gage 8ss 
   Lead Lined Coat 1ss 
   A Debt To The Guild 1ss 
Field Reporter 4ss 
Watcher 4ss 
Watcher 4ss 
Witchling Thrall 9ss 
 

Your thoughts?

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@4thstringer   I have thoughts...... probably misdirected and wrong.....but thoughts nonetheless. However, they vary radically based on what the schemes are for this strategy and idea. I think you can achieve a similar control oriented objective using different tools, perhaps more effectiveness, but it would require selections that may not be palatable for all scheme pools. 

Overall this approach seems to center around area and AP control and denial. It seems to me that the "Run From the Truth" should be secondary to generally spamming slow and controlling areas. Run from the truth only works when they have engaged your models and missed within range of Nellie and The Thalarian Stone works even less of the time- only when the attacks are directed against Nellie. When the conditions are right the cost is still pretty significant (discarding a Soulstone) to make it work. Typically I would think that if you can slow something before it gets into combat and/or push it away then it isn't likely to continue to give you the opportunity to get much mileage out of it anyway. 

I have looked at running something aimed more towards control than just killing as well but it looked quite a bit different (50%). I had intended to try it out tonight but my opponent backed out on me....maybe I will get a chance to try it tonight. If nothing else I will be out on the East Coast at the end of the month for work and can usually get a game night in with some dudes in Crystal City and may try it out then if the strategy and schemes support it. 

I will skip going into the list until after I see if you have a determined Strategy/Scheme pool or if you are looking at the concept more generally in which case I might post other versions of it. 

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The pool is one I am playing in for a small tournament in Virginia in a few weeks.  I don't intend to use it for experienced opponents, but the tournament is beginner friendly so if I face a beginner I figured I could take a list which doesn't use her more powerful upgrades.

The pool is guard the stash, corner public demo, hold up their forces, take prisoner, guarded treasure, dig their Graves.

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Disclaimer- replying to this thread in detail pushed off my Queller tactica until tomorrow. 

 

Kind of an interesting crew with the pool you laid out. As in the other discussion I am still on the fence or not a big fan of Guild Funds. If you are committed to playing The Thalarian Stone then I can understand its inclusion but as I mentioned above think it is more practical to just focus on Slow/Push spam and get some use out of "Run" when they are attacking a DF 7 Phiona instead of exposing Nellie. 

Generally I think you can get more mileage out of "Run" if you have something like Queller in your list- then between putting models on (-) flips and having some high DF models like Phiona you are more likely to be able to build in opportunities to take advantage of it. With a Queller casting double Restraining Wand and Phiona tanking against anything that is MI 6 or lower (when DF 7) you can potentially have 2-3 options per turn to push models out with "Run" while Nellie, Allison, and maybe Hannah are spamming Fast and Phiona is putting in work for the few kills you need. 

I understand the potential benefit from the Watchers but if you are willing to take a slightly different approach would probably look at swapping them out for either Guild Guard or Desperate Mercenaries (if running Embedded & Hannah) to squeeze a couple of extra points to either turn the Reporter into a Queller or turn the Thrall into Hannah. If you are willing to re-arrange or drop a couple of upgrades then you can look at some other options as well......and end up with a list completely focused on something else that looks like what I am going to recommend below. 🙂 In all seriousness if it is intended to be a lower threat Nellie then I think it works and is viable to still let you push back some threats and make a fun game out of it. Even if it is new players though I would go ahead and take the usual upgrades and show them how Nellie works- you don't have to go 100% every turn and can always shift to casting Incite, Scathing Review, and Hot Off the Presses to change things up some.  

 

Shifting gears- until you got to the last scheme I thought that one of my options would work. Still can, just with a little more risk. Unfortunately the options I was going to propose do still use her "good" upgrades though they are still less "killy" than the dream team. 

With either version the lists focus on maximizing control by slowing and pushing key models out of critical areas and denying the opponent the AP necessary to close with and neutralize your crew, accomplish the strategy and schemes, and disrupt your scoring. The pool you provided limits the options somewhat but Take Prisoner, Guarded Treasure, and Dig are still good options. I don't like Hold Up because it is too easy for the enemy to deny after the first time you score it though it is easier to score with a Nellie crew than some others (slow, fast, pushing models). Public Demo isn't really an option for the crews I would propose and Take is kind of Hit or Miss; like Hold Up a Nellie crew can score it better than some but it isn't my first choice. 

There are several lists/options I have looked at for Nellie to run a more heavy control list over the standard kill team. There are a lot of things in common between then with a few tweaks here or there depending on how you want to focus. My "standard" Nellie™ (N w/Delegation, Misleading, GF or MMMV; PP; Frank w/Wade In, LLC; Phiona w/Trans, LLC; PK w/Numb, Queller, GG x 2) can hand out quite a bit of Fast or Slow naturally without really focusing fully on it and still has the flexibility to deal with the high point kill-machine Enforcers, armor/incorporeal, etc. With the Queller it can also set up the "Run" pushes even though it isn't built to play that kind of game I think it could just by making different choices in play.

To focus heavier on the control aspect there are a couple of ways I would change the "core" list- the simplest version would be to swap out Frank for Allison and keep everything else the same or start looking at something a little more radical with a few more changes. Adding Allison gives you 2 x Slow from Her, 2 x Slow from the PK, and then dealers choice of Slow/Fast/etc from Nellie with the Queller setting up "Runs" on whatever is in charge range or engaged that you haven't pushed out or neutralized. Alternately you can look at swapping out Frank, the Queller, and some upgrades to get Allison and Hannah in the list as well: N w/Delegation, Embedded; PP; Phiona w/Trans/LLC; Allison, PK, GG x 2, and Hannah...you can always switch an upgrade around (drops Transparency off Phiona to get a LLC for Allison Dade or pick up Numb to the World for the Peacekeeper). This list may still be too much kill power but it can potentially provide a lot of control. If it is more kill power than you wanted against Crew Box + players (new or limited model pool players) with the PK in the list and you can always drop him for the Thrall and a couple of extra upgrades which would look like: N: w/Delegation, Misleading, Embedded; PP; Phiona w/LLC, and Transparency; Allison w/LLC, Witchling Thrall, GG x 2, Hannah. 

You could actually still do Public Demo with this list as well giving you the option to play for just about any of the schemes.....and it could be played up or down based on the caliber of the player/list you are against. A final easy swap if you want the core functionality of the final version with less power then drop the Thrall, drop an upgrade, and swap out Misleading for Guild Funds to stick the Queller back in and grab one of the Watchers to ping at Nellie to stack more evidence. 

 

Final note- though these crews are all possible less killy than a standard Nellie list against a newer player it might make for a more frustrating game to spend the whole game with your key pieces Slow and kept out of the action than to just be in the one-sided slug fest where though you are losing you are getting to kill some things in return. 

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6 hours ago, thewrathchilde said:

Disclaimer- replying to this thread in detail pushed off my Queller tactica until tomorrow. 

 

Kind of an interesting crew with the pool you laid out. As in the other discussion I am still on the fence or not a big fan of Guild Funds. If you are committed to playing The Thalarian Stone then I can understand its inclusion but as I mentioned above think it is more practical to just focus on Slow/Push spam and get some use out of "Run" when they are attacking a DF 7 Phiona instead of exposing Nellie. 

Generally I think you can get more mileage out of "Run" if you have something like Queller in your list- then between putting models on (-) flips and having some high DF models like Phiona you are more likely to be able to build in opportunities to take advantage of it. With a Queller casting double Restraining Wand and Phiona tanking against anything that is MI 6 or lower (when DF 7) you can potentially have 2-3 options per turn to push models out with "Run" while Nellie, Allison, and maybe Hannah are spamming Fast and Phiona is putting in work for the few kills you need. 

I understand the potential benefit from the Watchers but if you are willing to take a slightly different approach would probably look at swapping them out for either Guild Guard or Desperate Mercenaries (if running Embedded & Hannah) to squeeze a couple of extra points to either turn the Reporter into a Queller or turn the Thrall into Hannah. If you are willing to re-arrange or drop a couple of upgrades then you can look at some other options as well......and end up with a list completely focused on something else that looks like what I am going to recommend below. 🙂 In all seriousness if it is intended to be a lower threat Nellie then I think it works and is viable to still let you push back some threats and make a fun game out of it. Even if it is new players though I would go ahead and take the usual upgrades and show them how Nellie works- you don't have to go 100% every turn and can always shift to casting Incite, Scathing Review, and Hot Off the Presses to change things up some.  

 

Shifting gears- until you got to the last scheme I thought that one of my options would work. Still can, just with a little more risk. Unfortunately the options I was going to propose do still use her "good" upgrades though they are still less "killy" than the dream team. 

With either version the lists focus on maximizing control by slowing and pushing key models out of critical areas and denying the opponent the AP necessary to close with and neutralize your crew, accomplish the strategy and schemes, and disrupt your scoring. The pool you provided limits the options somewhat but Take Prisoner, Guarded Treasure, and Dig are still good options. I don't like Hold Up because it is too easy for the enemy to deny after the first time you score it though it is easier to score with a Nellie crew than some others (slow, fast, pushing models). Public Demo isn't really an option for the crews I would propose and Take is kind of Hit or Miss; like Hold Up a Nellie crew can score it better than some but it isn't my first choice. 

There are several lists/options I have looked at for Nellie to run a more heavy control list over the standard kill team. There are a lot of things in common between then with a few tweaks here or there depending on how you want to focus. My "standard" Nellie™ (N w/Delegation, Misleading, GF or MMMV; PP; Frank w/Wade In, LLC; Phiona w/Trans, LLC; PK w/Numb, Queller, GG x 2) can hand out quite a bit of Fast or Slow naturally without really focusing fully on it and still has the flexibility to deal with the high point kill-machine Enforcers, armor/incorporeal, etc. With the Queller it can also set up the "Run" pushes even though it isn't built to play that kind of game I think it could just by making different choices in play.

To focus heavier on the control aspect there are a couple of ways I would change the "core" list- the simplest version would be to swap out Frank for Allison and keep everything else the same or start looking at something a little more radical with a few more changes. Adding Allison gives you 2 x Slow from Her, 2 x Slow from the PK, and then dealers choice of Slow/Fast/etc from Nellie with the Queller setting up "Runs" on whatever is in charge range or engaged that you haven't pushed out or neutralized. Alternately you can look at swapping out Frank, the Queller, and some upgrades to get Allison and Hannah in the list as well: N w/Delegation, Embedded; PP; Phiona w/Trans/LLC; Allison, PK, GG x 2, and Hannah...you can always switch an upgrade around (drops Transparency off Phiona to get a LLC for Allison Dade or pick up Numb to the World for the Peacekeeper). This list may still be too much kill power but it can potentially provide a lot of control. If it is more kill power than you wanted against Crew Box + players (new or limited model pool players) with the PK in the list and you can always drop him for the Thrall and a couple of extra upgrades which would look like: N: w/Delegation, Misleading, Embedded; PP; Phiona w/LLC, and Transparency; Allison w/LLC, Witchling Thrall, GG x 2, Hannah. 

You could actually still do Public Demo with this list as well giving you the option to play for just about any of the schemes.....and it could be played up or down based on the caliber of the player/list you are against. A final easy swap if you want the core functionality of the final version with less power then drop the Thrall, drop an upgrade, and swap out Misleading for Guild Funds to stick the Queller back in and grab one of the Watchers to ping at Nellie to stack more evidence. 

 

Final note- though these crews are all possible less killy than a standard Nellie list against a newer player it might make for a more frustrating game to spend the whole game with your key pieces Slow and kept out of the action than to just be in the one-sided slug fest where though you are losing you are getting to kill some things in return. 

That is a lot to digest.  Thank you very much.  I agree with your point that this may be more frustrating for a new player than a base list.  I'll have to see how people at my club respond to it.

I'll try to respond again later today, it depends a lot on my work day.

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 I'm realizing that part of the issue for me is that the two models you would like to see me switch in are models which I do not yet own.  I don't have a queller or Hannah (though I could probably borrow Hannah or proxy either without much complaint.)  

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8 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

That is a lot to digest.  Thank you very much.  I agree with your point that this may be more frustrating for a new player than a base list. 

sure; no problem. Hopefully there was something of values buried under the layer of dross. My limited experience is that newer players (win or lose) are generally happier when they "feel" like they are doing something (~killing models) regardless of score or outcome than they are when they are locked down in a control game (even if the score is closer). 

1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

 I'm realizing that part of the issue for me is that the two models you would like to see me switch in are models which I do not yet own.  I don't have a queller or Hannah (though I could probably borrow Hannah or proxy either without much complaint.)  

It it purely/mainly as issue of model limitation or are there pieces of the discussion or theory that you take issue with?

If it just a model of model availability then as I mentioned before the list your proposed can do the pool you laid to and hit the objectives you have. Even if I completely agree with a post or approach I am almost always going to look at how it can be tweaked or changed in order to generate more/better discussion or see how an idea can be optimized instead of just providing a ditto that doesn't really provide much value. 

A much simpler tweak which I think would still add to the control options in your original list would be to just tweak the upgrades (assuming you buy into my argument against The Thalarian Stone) to get the 2 pts necessary to upgrade the Thrall to a Peacekeeper. They are both great beaters but the PK also provides another source of slow. 

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4 hours ago, thewrathchilde said:

sure; no problem. Hopefully there was something of values buried under the layer of dross. My limited experience is that newer players (win or lose) are generally happier when they "feel" like they are doing something (~killing models) regardless of score or outcome than they are when they are locked down in a control game (even if the score is closer). 

It it purely/mainly as issue of model limitation or are there pieces of the discussion or theory that you take issue with?

If it just a model of model availability then as I mentioned before the list your proposed can do the pool you laid to and hit the objectives you have. Even if I completely agree with a post or approach I am almost always going to look at how it can be tweaked or changed in order to generate more/better discussion or see how an idea can be optimized instead of just providing a ditto that doesn't really provide much value. 

A much simpler tweak which I think would still add to the control options in your original list would be to just tweak the upgrades (assuming you buy into my argument against The Thalarian Stone) to get the 2 pts necessary to upgrade the Thrall to a Peacekeeper. They are both great beaters but the PK also provides another source of slow. 

Technically I have the stones to make that switch.  I wanted my opponent to have to worry about public demo, but it ended up not mattering.

Did you know if your opponent is flipping high you can easily lose the game in one misaki activation?

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2 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Did you know if your opponent is flipping high you can easily lose the game in one misaki activation?

you absolutely can. I have only played it from the Thunders side and never been on the receiving end but have done it myself where Misaki came in with 5 AP ( 3 + Fast  + Conflux) under Recalled Training and just about my opponents whole crew walked off the table.....with Nellie you should be able to play against it better than most by running out the activations  and then using Incite and Slow(s) to prep for subsequent turns. The strategy/scheme pool you listed above kind of works against and prevents you from being able to take that tactic fully but you definitely would need to take a defensive approach using pushes and Slows to go after Misaki's support and use her own models to block her LOS and Incite's to ensure she isn't coming in first before you can react. That is definitely a match where (if I thought I was facing McCabe) I would be more apt to play the Thralls over some of the other choice since the Impossible to Wound shut down her cheating in severe damage and things like the PK with armor that reduce the impact of her blasts. 

I did try out the Nellie, PP, Phiona, Allison, Hannah, Executioner, and GG x 2 list tonight....went with the Executioner as an audible over the PK due to the schemes. Will short summary in the list post. 

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