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Rosskov

Balanced Errata chat

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So there has been a lot of disparate, and fairly impassioned,  discussion calling for nerfs and cuddles across various forums. While this is good (and shows that people care about the game) I thought I would start a faction neutral thread for people to voice measured tweaks to improve game balance. 

 

For example,  given the current perception of the power levels of sandeep and von schill, why not drop sandeep's cache to 1 and raise von schill's to 4 (you could even come up with some fluff to describe von schill 's acquisition of the stones). 

This thread is not intended to be balance in terms of taking from one and giving to another but I feel that this is a proportionate tweaking.

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5 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

And all posts in the thread must be read in the voice of this guy. 

Screen_shot_2011-12-25_at_4.52.05_AM.png

I have no strong feelings about this either way... all I know is my heart says maybe!

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I'm not sure a couple of stones for the cache is the appropriate way to balance masters. I'd rather see abilities redone. You could have granted Lucius a 7ss cache, he would still have been pretty lame before his errata. Von Schill probably needs more than a few stones and likewise for debuffing the top dogs.

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Agreed with Ludvig. Simple Cache tweak will not fix the gap between good and bad master. Some of them would need their actions/abilities/ups being changed to level them up.

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If +/- 1 cache would make the best and worst masters balanced I'd say we were already at a good enough balance and could skip the errata for them.

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17 hours ago, Rosskov said:

For example,  given the current perception of the power levels of sandeep and von schill, why not drop sandeep's cache to 1 and raise von schill's to 4 (you could even come up with some fluff to describe von schill 's acquisition of the stones). 

Would having 3 more or less stones available for hiring really change how Von Schill and Sandeep perform? 

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7 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I'm not sure a couple of stones for the cache is the appropriate way to balance masters. I'd rather see abilities redone. You could have granted Lucius a 7ss cache, he would still have been pretty lame before his errata. Von Schill probably needs more than a few stones and likewise for debuffing the top dogs.

I'm not sure I agree for most of this.  While for some masters (like pre-errata Lucius) stones in cache aren't the issue, Schill would basically be playing several stones up if his Cache wasn't so garbage, because he really does need his cache to stay alive.  Similarly, Deep would be either playing several stones lower for his crew or would actually be killable.  That would make a big difference.

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Most masters in the game that summon have low cache, and those that do not tend to have higher,

I would have to agree, in my opinion bringing these two masters more "in line with other options" but provide some sort of meta-change to them lowering deep to 1-2 ss and Von Schill to 3-4 would be quite  a nice'n'quick fix.

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Don't agree on the summoner vs non-summoner soulstone correlation. Pretty much all outcasts have 1 or 2 except Parker who is wave 4 and has 4. All ressers have 3 or 4. McMourning has summoning in ressers at cache 4. McCabe or Perdita doesn't summon but only have cache 2.

Listening and reading about Sandeep lately I thought the issue was that he did everything, the whole crew was condition immune and oxfordians were immortal, impossible to counter with him and his crew generallt just pwned the living crap out of eveything. Doesn't sound like something -2 cache solves.

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26 minutes ago, green-n-dumb said:

Hope that June arrata will touch Niko and Sandeep.
Its realy dusgusting to play against Sandeep theese days.

Well afaik he was demolished few times at the ITC last weekend so he can be countered somehow. I'm not saying he is not too good at the moment but he was defeated somehow.

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I know, because player skill and good old luck' of' the draw have no bearing on the game.

I will remember to forfeit right away next time when I play against Nico or Deep or...

I kill them in their deployment on 2nd activation.

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1 hour ago, PolishSausage said:

I know, because player skill and good old luck' of' the draw have no bearing on the game.

I will remember to forfeit right away next time when I play against Nico or Deep or...

I kill them in their deployment on 2nd activation.

What did you play? Sounds vicious, better be safe and nerf this one too. Two birds with one stone! And don't forget to hit something gremlin on the way. No Errata is truly complete without some sweet sweet gremlin Tears!

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I think he was saying that sort of thing that can happen through chance or skill disparity. Both of which could do with being stepped back, or forward, a moderate amount. For neutrality. 

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not really.

Deep is DF 5 with reduction 1 and nothing else to keep him alive (dont care for armor when hitting with Min 5's), never seen a deep player put imbued protection on him ( I do it)

Nico is Df4 with a DF trigger on an upgrade I have never seen anyone take, arm2 from graveyard spirit is ignored.

 

Both of these masters are very hard to beat if you take a standard " I punch you- you punch me" list and slowly crawl up the board.

This is not meta, current meta is T1 range extensions/pushes and lots of blasts. Neither of them will live long if you have the tools to focus them down and take advantage of the low DF.

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10 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Both of these masters are very hard to beat if you take a standard " I punch you- you punch me" list and slowly crawl up the board.

This is not meta, current meta is T1 range extensions/pushes and lots of blasts. Neither of them will live long if you have the tools to focus them down and take advantage of the low DF.

Such an interesting way of playing this game...
I really understand that "meta" stuff, but Malifaux games that rely on a turn 1-2 bombing win/loose is not "a lot of fun" for me (and for my community)... If you tell me it is the only way to deal with those masters, then we're fu**ed.

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I can only agree with @bedjy. The game shouldn't require an alpha strike (or any other single tactic) to win.

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Personally, I have come to think that is the issue with most of the masters we would regard as upper tier. From listening to podcasts and reading battle reports almost universally it seems that the upper tier masters just have that confluence of ability to massively affect the game and almost impossibility of dying. Seriously really pay attention to how the attitudes of the players are on how often those masters die and you’ll notice a pattern.

I think it would be a better game if they just hit every tier 1 masters survivability a little bit. 

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29 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Personally, I have come to think that is the issue with most of the masters we would regard as upper tier. From listening to podcasts and reading battle reports almost universally it seems that the upper tier masters just have that confluence of ability to massively affect the game and almost impossibility of dying. Seriously really pay attention to how the attitudes of the players are on how often those masters die and you’ll notice a pattern.

I think it would be a better game if they just hit every tier 1 masters survivability a little bit. 

Why ? So that the easy counter to the OP is to one tun kill them ?

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So there is more variety of choice in masters.

To me, although others might disagree, the most important models to balance and make certain there are no bad or sub optimal picks are the masters.

As it stands there is a small handful of masters that if you want to play and have any shot at winning a competitive event you have to use. They show up over and over and over. Even in listening to the reports from the latest fad of the week, all the talk around the iron Scorpius, you can still see the issue because almost without exception all the top competitors were saying they could only play their “sub-optimal” masters against players they knew or strongly suspected were significantly less good players than themselves.

If you look at the commonly seen top masters they all share the issue that by any reasonable expectation they are either unkillable, or are such a sink of resources that spending that amount of resources actually is less efficient than just letting them run around, while at the same time being exceptionally strong at dictating the terms of the overall game. 

And in terms of balance yes it would be more ideal to buff every master to their level, but there are what, 49 masters in the game, and if they add more masters to the game that increases even more. Much easier and more practical to nerf a handful then buff a cart load.

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6 hours ago, bedjy said:

Such an interesting way of playing this game...
I really understand that "meta" stuff, but Malifaux games that rely on a turn 1-2 bombing win/loose is not "a lot of fun" for me (and for my community)... If you tell me it is the only way to deal with those masters, then we're fu**ed.

that's why at my store we have "gentleman agreement" before the game we ask are we playing hard list or fun list.

Any "hard"list includes turn 1 hits. The reason this is optimal it swings current crew SS value.

For the longest time when M2e first came out I would religiously play 4-6 bells, just to kill 1 of opponents 5-6 ss model and summon a 5-6 ss bell (Seamus)

This immediately created a 10-12 ss swing between the crews turn 1 and gave immediate foreshadowing on whats to come in later turns.

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Do you think your groups "Alpha Strike" Meta is a product of it being the best strategy, or just lack of players with the skill to counter it? It's not something i've seen at top tables around me and is normally the move of the lesser of 2 skilled opponents as it puts more in the hands of luck vs skill since its so all in.

 

 

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22 hours ago, green-n-dumb said:

Hope that June arrata will touch Niko and Sandeep.
Its realy dusgusting to play against Sandeep theese days.

LOL. The hyperbole never ends when it comes to Sandeep.

Heaven forbid we accept the reality that all Masters will never equal, or even close to equal. Player skill and Master parity are the biggest factors in winning games.  Any good player who uses a good Master can beat Sandeep.

Hamelin, Nellie, Lady J, Viks, Nico, Kirai, Reva, Lilith, Asami, Collodi, Somer, Zipp, Wong.

Any of these can beat Sandeep. Be a good player, pick smart schemes, play the Strat.

Yes he’s strong, and I’m sure there will be adjustments, but to act like the only solution is nerf him into the ground is ridiculous. 

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