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Cedar

Our worst models

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On 5/28/2018 at 11:12 AM, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

I feel that Ligeia suffers from Nurse syndrom - she's a mix of average or below average stats and extremely powerful ability, which makes her really difficult to price adequately. I haven't even glued mine - so overpriced and fragile she seemed to me initially - until someone has actually used her against me. I had no non-:ToS-Range: Ca attack in my crew and getting rid of her suddenly became a huge problem. After that I have changed my mind about her. I would say that she's ok, but you shouldn't take her if there's not enough terrain to hide her or if you anticipate easy counters (like Carrion or Shadow Emissary).

Lady L has the same problem that almost all incorporeal models have - they are good against crews that can't ignore it, but are extremely weak even when enemy takes one model that has damaging CA action or can ignore Incorporeal.

On 5/27/2018 at 10:33 AM, daniello_s said:

Gunslingers - come on... i played them (and against them) few times and they were good.

They have one problem - Convict Gunslinger isn't Sue. Right, he has a bit more accurate attack, but has 2" lower range and lower min damage. If they have +1 Wk and +2":ToS-Range: Rg i'd consider them in my crew. Or at least having :ToS-Crow: in DF, so they could declare Return Fire each time they were attacked.

 

On 5/27/2018 at 9:41 PM, Zebo said:

Other model subpar for me is the Student of Conflict. 4ss is too expensive, and 2 ap for giving 1 ap also

True, I forgot about her.

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13 minutes ago, Cedar said:

They have one problem - Convict Gunslinger isn't Sue. Right, he has a bit more accurate attack, but has 2" lower range and lower min damage. If they have +1 Wk and +2":ToS-Range: Rg i'd consider them in my crew. Or at least having :ToS-Crow: in DF, so they could declare Return Fire each time they were attacked.

Well with Rapid Fire and potential 3+ attacks they are almost same on damage track like Sue and they have Sh6 instead of Sue's Sh5. I think they are pretty good as they are now.

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I cannot believe that the specialist was off your list, He is expensive, slow, and not very effective

Friekorps Troopers are 1 with a bullet

Pride should also be on your list

Winged Plagues are awesome, the are more mobile than Wretches, have a better Defense early in the turn and Armor 1 for a minion is solid, plus the slowing down of other models is key as well. Great synergy with Benny as well for his 0 dmg action 

 

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Don't understand the "1 with a bullet" expression. 

 

In fact, Specialist was on my list. 

 

How would you "fix" the models you consider "subpar" on our faction? 

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1 hour ago, beergod said:

cannot believe that the specialist was off your list, He is expensive, slow, and not very effective

To be honest I didn't include models that I'm not familiar with on that list. Before recent errata and Wave 5 Specialist was one of our worst models, but now I want to try him more.

 

1 hour ago, beergod said:

Winged Plagues are awesome, the are more mobile than Wretches, have a better Defense early in the turn and Armor 1 for a minion is solid, plus the slowing down of other models is key as well. Great synergy with Benny as well for his 0 dmg action 

Unfortunately, my experience with them is highly negative. They are thematic model for Hamelin which works best outside of this master. I might give them another chance with this master and take them instead of Crooligans. In other crews I either take Necropunks(Levi) or Void Wretches/Banditos.

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Lady Ligeia is my favourite thing about a Jack crew.

She has absolutely won me games, and ruined opponents plans. I also don't think it is very difficult to get her where you want her to be on full wounds.

Hide her behind some large bases and/or cover on her advance. She's walk 6 and incorporeal so when it's time she can just walk right through said cover and blocking models. Give her defensive stance every single turn, and when you have her where you want her go defensive x2. There are so many ways to move her around in a tormented crew that I find it's never an issue to use 1 of her AP each turn for defensive stance.

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3 hours ago, Mikey_C said:

Lady Ligeia is my favourite thing about a Jack crew.

She has absolutely won me games, and ruined opponents plans. I also don't think it is very difficult to get her where you want her to be on full wounds.

Hide her behind some large bases and/or cover on her advance. She's walk 6 and incorporeal so when it's time she can just walk right through said cover and blocking models. Give her defensive stance every single turn, and when you have her where you want her go defensive x2. There are so many ways to move her around in a tormented crew that I find it's never an issue to use 1 of her AP each turn for defensive stance.

Unfortunately she folds against Wp based attacks like a paper especially that majority of these attacks are ranged Ca attacks so being Incorporeal is not protecting her anyway.

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Specialist is weak as f*ck. I was able to use it in just 1 out of 4 games without him dying very early and blowing over my own models, and just because I left him in the back. That one match he damaged the hell out of the enemy crew, but df 4 is just too low when always the enemy is going first against him. Expensive, weak, situational, crappy Mi attack; just bring him if you need blast, burns and slow/paralysis removal. 

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On 5/27/2018 at 8:41 PM, Zebo said:

Other model subpar for me is the Student of Conflict. 4ss is too expensive, and 2 ap for giving 1 ap also. 

There are times that that fast is amazing. She isn't wanted in all lists, but she is at least something to consider. If I can get 2 extra master (or expensive model) AP in the game, then I think its probably well worth the 4 (or 5 as a merc because I do consider her out of faction as well) ss cost. And thats before you look at the options in a Viks list where it moves a viks for 1 Ap, and can have 3 attacks with minimum 4 if you want. 

If this is making your list of 10 worst models in faction, then I think we're in a good place. 

The Alpha strike is looking more and more common at the moment, and every crew can hire her for an easy first turn fast, which will make the Alpha strike hit harder. Sometimes she isn't the best way to add fast to your strike, but a lot of the time she is. 

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57 minutes ago, Adran said:

The Alpha strike is looking more and more common at the moment, and every crew can hire her for an easy first turn fast, which will make the Alpha strike hit harder. Sometimes she isn't the best way to add fast to your strike, but a lot of the time she is. 

I found that she is mostly used outside Outcasts, mostly with Zipp. OC have access to Oathkeeper, which is cheaper way of giving your master AP (although it takes one upgrade slot, which is more problematic than very low cost).

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I've been thinking that, with the "jack of all trades" thing over the Freikorpsmann, is a little bit difficult to balance a 5ss model. 

 

I mean, by now the attack of the Freikorpsmann is very weak, but can be improved greatly spending many resources. For a 5ss mini, making a shot of 7-8 damage is quite awesome, specially if it can be followed by a second shot of minimum 3-4 damage (even a second shot with 7-8 damage), or in close combat with Ml 6 and damage between 3-4 and 6-7. Yes, its a big waste of resources (3 cards, two of them :Guild: with one of those must be at least a 5, plus the high cards to cheat attacks if necessary and the 11+ for the damage cheats), but is absolutely insane that a minion can do this. How do you improve their shitty attack without making uncontrollable with the buffs? Only increasing the min damage up to 2 would mean minimun damages of 4-5.

 

And for the resilience? Def 5, armor +1 and 5 wounds... Increase the def to 6? I'm not against, but they would be along VS and the Steam Trunk the only Freikorps with that defense (and Anna, also). Increase the wounds? Both Trapper and Librarian have 6wd and none feel hard to kill, although it could be different in a 5ss mini. 

 

Their mobility? Unimpeded is not the strongest movement boost, here are many options that could be interesting, but this only would improve their scheme runner facet. 

 

What would you do? 

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biggest issue is that at 4 stones korpsman are too good, at 5 not good enough. even with some some tweaks they most likely would not see play out side of VS as the faction has better scheme runners in the form of Winged plagues and Void Wretches The change I would make is to VS him self in that for each korpsman in the crew he he gets a SS back up to max of 3

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9 hours ago, beergod said:

biggest issue is that at 4 stones korpsman are too good, at 5 not good enough. even with some some tweaks they most likely would not see play out side of VS as the faction has better scheme runners in the form of Winged plagues and Void Wretches The change I would make is to VS him self in that for each korpsman in the crew he he gets a SS back up to max of 3

I think the easier fix at this point is to make them a little worse and drop them to 4ss. The addition of the engineer really ruined them. 1) for one point more you get a better model. 2) the fact that the engineer can add rams to the freikorpsman would fix them, except adding rams to pretty much any other freikorps model is a better return on investment, so the freikorpsman is still bad.

Maybe drop crit strike, up the damage to min 2 and lower them to 4ss. Something else might also have to drop, but at 5ss they are just outclassed by so many things. 

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On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 9:56 PM, Mikey_C said:

I think the easier fix at this point is to make them a little worse and drop them to 4ss. The addition of the engineer really ruined them. 1) for one point more you get a better model. 2) the fact that the engineer can add rams to the freikorpsman would fix them, except adding rams to pretty much any other freikorps model is a better return on investment, so the freikorpsman is still bad.

Maybe drop crit strike, up the damage to min 2 and lower them to 4ss. Something else might also have to drop, but at 5ss they are just outclassed by so many things. 

I think it's fine if not everyone values a model, I like them as their are, I would be less likely to pick them up if they didn't have crit strike. I would especially never consider them in other factions as a weaker 4ss.

I just don't see the appeal of making the model cheaper, by making it a weaker/generic model, at that point you could just get a desperate merc.

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I agree that the korpmen is lacking "something" but I don't know if nerfing them and making them cheaper is a good choice. Maybe a movement trick o something like that would make them worth the price

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On 5/27/2018 at 3:41 PM, Zebo said:

Other model subpar for me is the Student of Conflict. 4ss is too expensive, and 2 ap for giving 1 ap also. 

If you make SoC 3SS, you make Viktoria's a lot better because she's still a Sister with armor, can take part in movement tricks and healing.  It would dwarf what a Desperate Mercenary could do for the same points.

She's 4SS because she's also a mercenary; if you only had to pay 4SS out of faction to get an unrestricted Fast, it's a little too cheap as a Totem.

Quote

I agree that the korpmen is lacking "something" but I don't know if nerfing them and making them cheaper is a good choice. Maybe a movement trick o something like that would make them worth the price

If you really wanted to take all of the synergy upgrades from Von Schill and Hodgepodge Emissary, they make all the Freikorps models worth it... but no one wants to use Von Schill as a support/enhancement model, and I don't blame them.

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Lets compare the FM (Freikorpsmann) to the beloved FT (Freikorps Trapper)

  • FT is 2 more ss, they have the same stats, except for FT with one more wd, and FM with one more charge inch.
  • FM has unimpeded, FT has from the shadows.
  • FM has a better melee (6vs3), and a slightly better dmg track, FM has crit, and a trigger to raise his df by 2.
  • Their Sh is the same, FT has longer range, especially if focused, and FT has slightly better damage, with a :+flip to attack.
  • both got crit, and push
  • FM has a (0) to add a suit from a discarded card, and FT can leave engagement.

They're pretty similar, they just function a lil different. FM can even do more damage with his (0), maybe FM are just too general for people's tastes.

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6 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

If you make SoC 3SS, you make Viktoria's a lot better because she's still a Sister with armor, can take part in movement tricks and healing.  It would dwarf what a Desperate Mercenary could do for the same points.

She's 4SS because she's also a mercenary; if you only had to pay 4SS out of faction to get an unrestricted Fast, it's a little too cheap as a Totem.

If you really wanted to take all of the synergy upgrades from Von Schill and Hodgepodge Emissary, they make all the Freikorps models worth it... but no one wants to use Von Schill as a support/enhancement model, and I don't blame them.

Although vS can work really, really well in this role, depending on the strat/scheme pool and some other things.  Stand back, shoot and support the team.  

2 hours ago, wafew said:

Lets compare the FM (Freikorpsmann) to the beloved FT (Freikorps Trapper)

  • FT is 2 more ss, they have the same stats, except for FT with one more wd, and FM with one more charge inch.
  • FM has unimpeded, FT has from the shadows.
  • FM has a better melee (6vs3), and a slightly better dmg track, FM has crit, and a trigger to raise his df by 2.
  • Their Sh is the same, FT has longer range, especially if focused, and FT has slightly better damage, with a :+flip to attack.
  • both got crit, and push
  • FM has a (0) to add a suit from a discarded card, and FT can leave engagement.

They're pretty similar, they just function a lil different. FM can even do more damage with his (0), maybe FM are just too general for people's tastes.

I think that's it.  They're too general and they do nothing well.  Even 5 and 6 SS models are often decent at one thing.  Being a little difficult to kill is about the only thing they do, and that's only within 6" of vS - and even then they're not all that difficult.  

Another difference is that the trapper has an impact on how your opponent moves around the board - FM doesn't.  And because you're not moving trapper, you're often focussing him.

 

I do take FM reasonably often though, just one.  

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On 6/2/2018 at 12:52 PM, wafew said:

I think it's fine if not everyone values a model, I like them as their are, I would be less likely to pick them up if they didn't have crit strike. I would especially never consider them in other factions as a weaker 4ss.

I just don't see the appeal of making the model cheaper, by making it a weaker/generic model, at that point you could just get a desperate merc.

You actually consider taking them in other factions?
I wouldn't consider taking them outside of Schill.

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Every time I have run the Freikorpsmenn, they tent to just soak some damage then die and thats what I use them for in von schill either that or if I dont need to stick bodies in front of a freight train I they actually arent bad scheme runners but they sure could use either a buff or a ss reduction, though I fear at 4ss they would be too good.

They can be hard to kill and pretty deadly given the ss count but like others have said they dont really DO anything.

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On 6/3/2018 at 9:35 PM, Mikey_C said:

You actually consider taking them in other factions?
I wouldn't consider taking them outside of Schill.

I do! Only in Neverborn tho, next time I use them OoF, i'll post the crew and how it went.

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On 6/7/2018 at 3:29 PM, wafew said:

I do! Only in Neverborn tho, next time I use them OoF, i'll post the crew and how it went.

I've never even thought about taking them as a Merc, how do you normally use them/what do they do at 6ss you can't get from an in faction model?

The only reason I even noticed they had the merc characteristic, was for I Pay Better...

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13 hours ago, cbtb11235813 said:

I've never even thought about taking them as a Merc, how do you normally use them/what do they do at 6ss you can't get from an in faction model?

The only reason I even noticed they had the merc characteristic, was for I Pay Better...

I only consider taking them in Neverborn. The big thing they provide that the faction lacks is ranged damaging attacks. From my list of Neverborn, I have counted 9 that have a ranged attack that deal damage, poison, or burning, but none of them really fill the spot that i would take a freikorpsmann for. Others either don't do as much damage, can't attack as far, are more expensive, are not tanky, or lack a good melee. FM sits in a good spot at the middle of all those things.

FM can shoot far 12", which is only surpassed by angel eyes 14".

FM can deal good damage, 1/2/5 turns into a 3/4/7 if you can flip/cheat a ram, and add a ram with his (0), this is a little card intensive, but it can be helped with Jakob discarding an Ace he can draw back, or a zoraida/dreamer crew who earn cards, and it helps to focus and make one attack. Angel eyes is better at doing multiple lower damage shots, tuco and scion are more used for blasts and pulse aoe damage, iggy can dish a lot of damage ( up to 8 burning with 2 attacks and the woe upgrade ) but sometimes it's nice to have something die right away, plus burning can be removed. stiched can deal a lot of damage, but it's both risky, and only has a 6" range.

FM is also tanky, with armor, wp 6, has his freikorps suit, which fits very well in a nephilim crew, can up his df from a 5 to a 7 on a ml trigger ( which he can get from his (0)). He has the same amount of wounds as a blood wretch, of the same price.

and last, FM also has a good melee attack, which gives him additional flexibility. out of the list of shooters i have, scion is the only with both a good gun and melee, for 2ss more, and lower df/wp.

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31 minutes ago, wafew said:

I only consider taking them in Neverborn. The big thing they provide that the faction lacks is ranged damaging attacks. From my list of Neverborn, I have counted 9 that have a ranged attack that deal damage, poison, or burning, but none of them really fill the spot that i would take a freikorpsmann for. Others either don't do as much damage, can't attack as far, are more expensive, are not tanky, or lack a good melee. FM sits in a good spot at the middle of all those things.

FM can shoot far 12", which is only surpassed by angel eyes 14".

FM can deal good damage, 1/2/5 turns into a 3/4/7 if you can flip/cheat a ram, and add a ram with his (0), this is a little card intensive, but it can be helped with Jakob discarding an Ace he can draw back, or a zoraida/dreamer crew who earn cards, and it helps to focus and make one attack. Angel eyes is better at doing multiple lower damage shots, tuco and scion are more used for blacks and puse aoe damage, iggy can dish a lot of damage ( up to 8 burning with 2 attacks and the woe upgrade ) but sometimes it's nice to have something die right away, plus burning can be removed. stiched can deal a lot of damage, but it's both risky, and only has a 6" range.

FM is also tanky, with armor, wp 6, has his freikorps suit, which fits very well in a nephilim crew, can up his df from a 5 to a 7 on a ml trigger ( which he can get from his (0)). He has the same amount of wounds as a blood wretch, of the same price.

and last, FM also has a good melee attack, which gives him additional flexibility. out of the list of shooters i have, scion is the only with both a good gun and melee, for 2ss more, and lower df/wp.

Well when you put it like that

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