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cbtb11235813

Models better out of faction

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I've noticed recently some of the newer models in our faction that appear better (on paper, I have never played these masters) with a non-Arcanist crew. For example

Ferdinand Vogel - Since he is a mimic, Lucius can hire him. While I love playing him in Arcanists, he seems to have more direct synergy with Lucius than any Arcanist crew (red tape, censure, and he is a lawyer, obvious theme there). Aside from possibly Marcus with his beast shenanigans, and turning into a beast, I don't see him in "theme" with anything we have. 

The Scorpius - The only way I've seen this model used to any degree of success is a poison Marcus crew, which in itself is a sub-optimal way to play Marcus by general opinion. But since it is a beast, why not bring it with the obvious poison master (and Marcus' former student) McMourning. You've already probably spent resources getting poison out, which is usually the idea of a McM list. Rather than try to turn Marcus into McM, run Sebastian along with the Scorp, and have everything eat 3 damage and slow when it activates, and then again at the end of turn. That turns that oppressive aura into nothing short of punishing in my opinion. Throw in an Performer with an even better expunge than McM, and you could damn near call him tri-faction.

This is in no way a complaint, simply an observation. Especially since we have things that work both ways. Johan is absolutely punishing if used well in an Ironsides list, and has super obvious synergy with at least half of the Arcanist crews. I don't see anything in Outcast the he works quite as well with (other than Levi hiring a bunch of Arcanist constructs, but thats a different story). 

Anything else you've noticed? Are these models actually better out of faction? Again I've never played these master, but I have played against McM with performers, and heard plenty about Vogel in Lucius 

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Rail golem. I don’t rate it myself, but I can see it’s the reason Hoffman’s On Sight Assimilation can’t declare triggers on the copied attack. Likewise Howard Langston for no triggers on Machine Puppet obey, etc. Also power looped steam arachnid swarms with Ml7 repeating attacks for extra nibbling.

 

How’d you DO that with your avatar pic?! It’s absorbing the default color everywhere!

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46 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Rail golem. I don’t rate it myself, but I can see it’s the reason Hoffman’s On Sight Assimilation can’t declare triggers on the copied attack. Likewise Howard Langston for no triggers on Machine Puppet obey, etc. Also power looped steam arachnid swarms with Ml7 repeating attacks for extra nibbling.

 

How’d you DO that with your avatar pic?! It’s absorbing the default color everywhere!

Oh yea, forgot about better SA swarms with Hoffman. I'm a bit salty about that, they should obviously be best with Ramos. 

 

And on the avatar pic, I have no clue what you're talking about haha

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Vogel isn't very synergistic with Lucius, red tape is more useful if you don't already have two models in your crew to apply it and the beast qithin gets no buffs from Lucius on acvount of not being a minion or mimic (which is super weird because I thought Vogel isthe beast within so it should logically* be a mimic).

The reason it has mimic and Lucius payers are all over it is probably because they got a story snippet together during the campaign when guild won one week for Vogel. Lucius players are also known for their penchant for sillyness, theme and amusing but hopelessly useless lists. ;)

The beast within can drop down two scrap markers which I believe is pretty useful for many arcanist models.

 

*used in a very loose definition here

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3 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Vogel isn't very synergistic with Lucius, red tape is more useful if you don't already have two models in your crew to apply it and the beast qithin gets no buffs from Lucius on acvount of not being a minion or mimic (which is super weird because I thought Vogel isthe beast within so it should logically be a mimic).

The reason it has mimic and Lucius payers are all over it is probably because they got a story snippet together during the campaign when guild won one week for Vogel.

The beast within can drop down two scrap markers which I believe is pretty useful for many arcanist models.

You're right, the scrap generation is fairly nice, especially for Ramos and summoning Raspy

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Vogel is Lucius’ model, the Beast Within is Marcus’ model—they just happen to come in the same kit. Sort of like coryphée and the duet, if anyone ever wanted those tissue paper models (almost double the cost of a mannequin for one more wound?!).

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16 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Vogel isn't very synergistic with Lucius, red tape is more useful if you don't already have two models in your crew to apply it and the beast qithin gets no buffs from Lucius on acvount of not being a minion or mimic (which is super weird because I thought Vogel isthe beast within so it should logically* be a mimic).

 The reason it has mimic and Lucius payers are all over it is probably because they got a story snippet together during the campaign when guild won one week for Vogel. Lucius players are also known for their penchant for sillyness, theme and amusing but hopelessly useless lists. ;)

The beast within can drop down two scrap markers which I believe is pretty useful for many arcanist models.

 

*used in a very loose definition here

Oops, I have cheated with the beast within getting + flips from lucius.  oops.

I haven't gotten a lot out of Vogel in Lucius lists, even with cheating tbh.  Jury helps, but Lucius is already card hungry so its a tough sell to discard to get his push.  The NB Vogel Lucius with Bulltungin has some possibilities I guess.Edit: I'm of the belief that Vogel's tactical action should have all of those effects without the trigger.  But maybe that would be too much.

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11 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Vogel is Lucius’ model, the Beast Within is Marcus’ model—they just happen to come in the same kit. Sort of like coryphée and the duet, if anyone ever wanted those tissue paper models (almost double the cost of a mannequin for one more wound?!).

I'm not sure about Vogel and Marcus. Scrap generation aside, I think that Vogel actually will end up working best with Ironsides and Colette.

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I see a lot of people take performer's out of faction paying the merc. tax for the "sip of wine" trigger. It works well with poison heavy crews, which Arcanists lack. 

I don't think this is a particularly good strategy, but I see people do it. 

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9 minutes ago, grim_stoki said:

I see a lot of people take performer's out of faction paying the merc. tax for the "sip of wine" trigger. It works well with poison heavy crews, which Arcanists lack. 

I don't think this is a particularly good strategy, but I see people do it. 

Isn't there a Marcus poison build.

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I feel like this is just a problem with our of faction hiring in general.

Gremlins for instance I feel miss out on pigs because of Marcus stealing them and models like Sparks and Mechanized Porkchop might as well have been arcanists or 10T models instead of Gremlins. 

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It could be worse.  The only guild models that would ever be taken in other factions are dogs in TT, and even that is only if the Lucas player decides they prefer luna to super weasel.

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31 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

I feel like this is just a problem with our of faction hiring in general.

Gremlins for instance I feel miss out on pigs because of Marcus stealing them and models like Sparks and Mechanized Porkchop might as well have been arcanists or 10T models instead of Gremlins. 

As a Marcus player I feel like pigs are a fun but suboptimal pick to put it politely, lacking access to upgrades, support models and whatnot from Gremlins.

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1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

I'm not sure about Vogel and Marcus. Scrap generation aside, I think that Vogel actually will end up working best with Ironsides and Colette.

He actually works amazingly in my Colette Dancing Blade crew and I see Vogel and the Beast getting lots of work done in almost any crew.  A bit of card draw with amazing control and a devastating punch when you need it.  Plus, Vogel basically has a prompt of his own with the Mask trigger to push and make a claw attack.  Not sure if many people noticed but you can target friendly Living MASTERS. (Hello melee masters!) Most notably Ironsides and Mei Feng but of course it allows for any master to push around if they're not a Beast.

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36 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

It could be worse.  The only guild models that would ever be taken in other factions are dogs in TT, and even that is only if the Lucas player decides they prefer luna to super weasel.

Lucius bringing investigators to nvb? ;) Not sure if any guild constructs can successfully roll with Levi? 

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1 minute ago, 4thstringer said:

I think it is clear that good players don't do that.

Hahaha! You are just at the forefront of the game, this time next year they'll be crying for nerfs to neverborn Lucius. :D 

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I have used Vogel with Ironsides, getting the free attack is certainly nice. 

2 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Isn't there a Marcus poison build.

There is, but I've seen very little evidence that is anything but a decidedly worse build than his other ones. You end up playing more Resser models than Arcanist, and to worse effect than a Resser master could get. But maybe no one has really figured it out yet, who knows. It is a fun list if nothing 

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1 minute ago, cbtb11235813 said:

I have used Vogel with Ironsides, getting the free attack is certainly nice. 

There is, but I've seen very little evidence that is anything but a decidedly worse build than his other ones. You end up playing more Resser models than Arcanist, and to worse effect than a Resser master could get. But maybe no one has really figured it out yet, who knows. It is a fun list if nothing 

Believe me, i get it.  I've tried to play Guild Poison McM.

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39 minutes ago, cbtb11235813 said:

I have used Vogel with Ironsides, getting the free attack is certainly nice. 

There is, but I've seen very little evidence that is anything but a decidedly worse build than his other ones. You end up playing more Resser models than Arcanist, and to worse effect than a Resser master could get. But maybe no one has really figured it out yet, who knows. It is a fun list if nothing 

Pack leader and shikome look like they have fun synergy. I would also have guessed you could use rattlers, Myranda and poison gamin if you wanted to stay loyal to arcanists.

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I tried it the other day with The Scorpius, 2 poison gamin, a performer, sabertooth, Kudra, Vogel, and the jackalope. Went up against Pandora, didn't go super well haha. The hardest part for me was the fact you needed 3 overlapping auras to really do anything effective with the poison, and all it did was 2 damage and slow in the best case scenario. And it put all of my important models in a nice bubble for Pandora to continually pulse out WP duels 

 

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I forgot how weird poison gamin are. Needing to activate the poison thing and not having infect built in on the spit significantly lowers their use.

Against Pandora I'd say pretty much no aura is worth bunching up too much for.

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

I forgot how weird poison gamin are. Needing to activate the poison thing and not having infect built in on the spit significantly lowers their use.

Against Pandora I'd say pretty much no aura is worth bunching up too much for.

Yea... I had never played against Pandora, I figured that one out shortly haha. And yes, poison gamin are a few tweaks short of being worth 5 stones. Make the aura passive, build in infect, maybe drop a stone still, and they might  see the table 

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9 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Isn't there a Marcus poison build.

I don't think you can get that much poison out of it though. The performers really only become valuable if you can get up to poison 4 or 5. 

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