Mah is good

[Math Mathonwy]

This is going to be a bit of a disjointed ramble. Bear with me. And feel free to engage with anything or just talk about Mah in general.

I won a small tournament last weekend using Mah twice and Wong once.

Manifest Destiny is absolute gold. Get Off My Land every turn is bonkers good. It of course allows you to reach silly far but it also allows you to yo-yo back to safety. In the first game, which had Eliminate the Leadership in the pool, I used Mah mostly to Holler and then hop forward on the last activation and then back off again with Get Off My Land at the start of the next turn.

In a practice game I used Get Off My Land to suddenly change course and attack a different area of the battlefield taking out a Scheme runner. Push 8", then Let Mah Handle This for a further 6" Push and suddenly you're really far away from where you started and you still have three AP to do stuff with.

I used Hollering a ton. When using Mah as a beatstick I always tend to be a bit disappointed but Hollering is great stuff. Mah as a positioning piece is something I've advocated for a long time. Ca 5 is seen as bad but since you only need to tie against Wp (usually 5 or 6), I got it through against enemies a lot as well. And usually I used all my Mah AP on the first turn just to Push my own stuff around. The range is really good.

What is the most potent defense in the game? It's not being there to be attacked in the first place and Mah is nowadays very good at that. Pushing 8" through Severe terrain and taking Disguised can keep her amazingly safe. In fact, in the two tournament games she wasn't attacked even once as it wasn't worth it.

Her Initiative suit boost is something that I don't like relying on. I don't take a ton of Melee stuff and aim for Rams. I just take good stuff and take whatever boost I happen to get. Much happier that way.

Bushwhackers are also really good. Their main problem is that they lack access to the third AP but with Get Off My Land they get a really amazing "AP" and it happens at an interesting time in the turn. 5SS and their Focus shot to 14" Ignoring Cover is really quite good. Now, I wouldn't use more than one since they are card hungry (even the Focus often eats a card for Damage, good though that may be) but one is certainly a contender. I really do think that when taking one, she is on par with a Lightning Bug which is pretty bonkers. Their 2 Wd shoot action when someone else misses is pretty useless. I mean, I guess if there's an enemy model with one Wound left it's worth it but otherwise I wouldn't take it. Cover against non- OTOH and their great statline - those are good!

Pit Traps has been pretty potent. In the practice game it was good, in my first tournament game it was pure gold and in the second tournament game it didn't do much. In the first tournament game my opponent had godly hands and had to drop really high cards to Pit Traps. Even a 12! In the second tournament game the traps did affect my opponent's placing, so even if they seemingly didn't do all that much, they still did something.

I used Little Lass for the Pit Traps but using both her and Bushwhacker put quite a bit of strain on my hand. Often when activating Mah I didn't have any cards I wanted to switch anymore and it's a bit sad dropping an 11 even if you get to draw afterwards. In the practice game I took a Crier but he was one-shot by a lucky three Severes on negatives so didn't help for long. Still, certainly a thing to consider. I also took a Banjonista and happened to get Tomes for Initiative so at least the Crier's death contributed two cards  

Mech Pork with Mah is good. Those positive to Charge Attacks are potent! And Bayou Two-card relieves pressure from her hand which is always good.

[Ludvig]

You need to get with the program Math, everything except two masters with semi-fixed lists is unplayable! Don't you go trying to create a good mood.

On a more serious note we need to expand our finnish-swedish collaboration. I want a good spanking from that spoon! 

[daniello_s]

Great writing Math. Really good insight into wooden spoon lady😁

After Broken Promises I found Mah 4th best Gremlin master after Zipp, Somer and Wong (and Wong only because Glowy upgrade otherwise she would be 3rd).

She can hit pretty well, she is mobile, she can push her models around, she can cycle bad cards. With proper models (which means with high Ml stat) her crew can be very aggressive and dangerous. I found Survivors and Whiskey Golem really good with her now (thanks to their cost drop). Also Emissary is really decent with her and I used to take him pretty often.

Bushwackers are decent now although they are still card hungry and I don't dare to take more than one. They are very nice as the flanking models and backup scheme runners with quite solid punch for 5SS minion.

Pit Traps i treid few times with Little Lass but at the end of the day I prefer to take third Survivor instead. Little Lass I think should be dropped to 3SS and then she could be seen bit more often.

 

[Math Mathonwy]

5 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Great writing Math. Really good insight into wooden spoon lady😁

After Broken Promises I found Mah 4th best Gremlin master after Zipp, Somer and Wong (and Wong only because Glowy upgrade otherwise she would be 3rd).

That sounds like a fair assessment. Mah might edge out over Wong in some pools and certain tables but yeah, agreed!

5 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

She can hit pretty well, she is mobile, she can push her models around, she can cycle bad cards. With proper models (which means with high Ml stat) her crew can be very aggressive and dangerous. I found Survivors and Whiskey Golem really good with her now (thanks to their cost drop). Also Emissary is really decent with her and I used to take him pretty often.

I don't have Survivors but those do seem like they would really sing with Mah. Strongly considering picking them up.

I also really should build my Whiskey Golem. He is such a beast in Supply Wagons! But unfortunately I have the Nightmare version so that's what? 68 parts or something? And impossible to transport  

5 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Bushwackers are decent now although they are still card hungry and I don't dare to take more than one. They are very nice as the flanking models and backup scheme runners with quite solid punch for 5SS minion.

Yeah, taking two certainly seems like too much discard. But man I was quite blown away by taking one.

5 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Pit Traps i treid few times with Little Lass but at the end of the day I prefer to take third Survivor instead. Little Lass I think should be dropped to 3SS and then she could be seen bit more often.

If the table has good choke points, I think that Pit Traps is a really good deal. Little Lass certainly could be a stone less, agreed. She is definitely a "fun" choice as opposed to being the "optimal" choice. Sammy with Pit Traps for four more is a consideration, I suppose. More card swapping as well!

[TeddyBear]

i'll be boring maybe, but what core list do you use generally with her?

I don't have bushwackers..

[DanteJH]

Yeah, I got mah some months back and was actually presently surprised! I like using her as a disruption piece with ‘aim for the sore spots’ being a favorite. A 4’ melee means an 8’ bubble of engagement around mah, it’s silly good. 

I was suprised how stupid fast she is too! As you said, get off my land and let mah handle this it HUGE. I haven’t used hollerin much but I’ll try it next game, I haven’t been disappointed by beat face mah yet. Ml 8! 

I also really do like bushwackers. I take 2 with mah and a crier and they do serious work! They’re great all round models with a decent gun, a great melee and more movement than they no what to do with!

here’s my base list

50 SS Gremlins Crew

Mah Tucket + 5 Pool

 - Know The Terrain (1)

 - Manifest Destiny (1)

 - Do Over (1)

The Little Lass (4)

 - Lead Lined Apron (0)

Francois LaCroix (8)

 - Stilts (1)

Burt Jebsen (8)

 - Dirty Cheater (1)

Gremlin Crier (7)

 - Dirty Cheater (1)

Pere Ravage (6)

Bayou Bushwhacker (5)

Bayou Bushwhacker (5)

 

 Pretty elite crew but I haven’t dropped a game with it yet! Most of it should be pretty self explanatory except pere. He’s just there because he makes me giggle

 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

13 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

i'll be boring maybe, but what core list do you use generally with her?

I don't have bushwackers..

The only autotakes for me are Raphael (with Dirty Cheater) and a Slop Hauler (I'm old school like that). Little Lass has always been in my lists but she isn't optimal as such. Other than those, I often take a Mech Pork, a Taxidermist, and Trixiebelle. Common pics are also a Banjonista, Crier, The Sow, Francois, Crier, Sammy, Bayou Gremlins, Merris, Iron Skeeter, even Sparks (not optimal!).

My exact list for the first tournament game (Public Executions), for example, was

• Mah (Manifest Destiny, Know the Terrain, Liquid Bravery) (7 Pool)
• Little Lass (Pit Traps)
• Trixiebelle (A Gun for a Lady)
• Raphael (Dirty Cheater)
• Taxidermist (Dirty Cheater)
• Mech Pork
• 2 x Slop Hauler

[daniello_s]

My core crew is:

Mah - dc, manifest destiny, apron

Whiskey Golem - Barrell Up

Emissary - mah's conflux

2x Swine Cursed

3x Survivor

Sometimes i change Emissary for Burt/Taxidermist with dc

[Math Mathonwy]

Did we just post three lists with the only common model between them being Mah herself? And Little Lass in two of the lists?

Ummm... Wow. Whoever said that Gremlins lack viable choices?  

 

But goes to show how versatile Mah is! I wonder if any other Master would produce three list suggestions with zero overlap in models (discounting totems)?

[daniello_s]

Gremlin power!

Forgot to mention - if i want to go crazy i swap one Swine Cursed for Rooster. Rooster pushed into enemy crew with buffed Ml is so funny thing to do😎

[TeddyBear]

Thanks! i'll take inspiration from them 😎

Edit. But with Emissary i could take 2 benefits from "Chores"?

[Platov]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Did we just post three lists with the only common model between them being Mah herself? And Little Lass in two of the lists?

Ummm... Wow. Whoever said that Gremlins lack viable choices?  

 

But goes to show how versatile Mah is! I wonder if any other Master would produce three list suggestions with zero overlap in models (discounting totems)?

Looks like I will post 4th list. Mah is my favorite master, and after book 5 she got waaaay better. But I still rely on Rams much, and it works quite good, because of emissary and crier. It's kinda melee-based crew, everything is about killing enemy models, but in current GG it's totally fine.

50 SS Gremlins Crew
Mah Tucket + 4 Pool
- Manifest Destiny (1)
- Know The Terrain (1)
- Out For Blood (2)
Mancha Roja (9)
- Dirty Cheater (1)
Lucky Emissary (10)
- Conflux of Bushwhacking (0)
Burt Jebsen (8)
- Dirty Cheater (1)
Gremlin Crier (7)
Wrastler (5)
Wrastler (5)

 

7 models is not much, but i find this list quite good.

 

Mah is for positioning, hunting enemy schemerunners, and occasional hit-and-run.

Mancha, with +1 more Ml, and positioning from Mah, is absolute monster. Imo, best henchman with Mah. And with 7-8Ml he can insta-gib even enemy Masters, with 3 hit combo.(Arm Lock+Pelidriver+Finisher triggers). Im REALLY surprised, that noone offered Mancha as good addition to Mah's crew.

Burt, well, Burt is Burt. He does his Burt stuff.

Emissary is good for chosing Chores, and he's a Ml beater, so he fits well in this crew.

Crier helps with additional card-draw, with manifest destiny, and Mah\Mancha\Emissary discard he is quite good. Plus, in late turns, you can sacrifice him for +flips, and then sacrifice Bayou Gremlin for one more turn of +flips.

Ml 8(with Ram Chores) 5SS minion, 1\2\3 damage 4 times per charge. They are, imo, designed for Mah, and they are good with her. And they can take a punch. They, also, can act as schemerunners. Slow, bad schemrunners.

And yes, i don't take totem at all. Lass is ok in general, but additional Wrastler looks better.
 

[Math Mathonwy]

That's certainly a fourth very different approach!

But Out For Blood with a Pool of four and Mancha Roja (who tends to use Stones for Triggers as well as to stay alive) seems weird? I used to take Out for Blood a lot but it really wasn't worth it for me. I've been much happier with Mah ever since I dropped it.

13 minutes ago, Platov said:

And with 7-8Ml he can insta-gib even enemy Masters, with 3 hit combo.(Arm Lock+Pelidriver+Finisher triggers)

Making it work against SS users is really tricky, though, since all of the three required Triggers are after damaging. And Arm Lock doesn't necessarily do anything as it can be overcome with SS. Though naturally it can be very costly in SS for the opponent. But OTOH if you fail an assassination attempt with Mancha, he tends to get pulverized by the return attention.

I may sound like a negative nanny but I do love different takes and I will probably test Mancha with Mah in the future. So thank you for the list, even if I disagreed with it a bit.

[daniello_s]

I would love Manja but his short Cg range is too paunfull... and not always you can have impassable terrain when and where you want to use his extended Cg ability...

[PolishSausage]

The only time we used to play Mah was with 2ss stuffed ( crew took 6x stuffed and 2x tax) using Mah to push pigs all over the place.

But again, you know what happened to that.

 

Only other list I seen success with was the emissary and 5-6 survivors, sprinkling in raphael+pere as the troublemaker duo.

[edopersichetti]

I've tried her a few times before the boost and so I dropped her because she was obviously flawed. Now I know she's greatly improved, I just wish some of those boosts were on her stat card and not upgrades.

Yes Manifest Destiny is great - it's autotake, and in fact, it should probably be part of her card already, as I just said. I find Pit Traps useful too.

Lass - meh, she's a distraction piece at best, even though the upgrade trick is nice. Send her up, mess with the opponent a bit, then Mah gets free Armor
The last game I had with Mah, I tried Wrastlers. They are good, especially if they can tag team, but a bit fragile - to be expected.

Haven't tried Survivors yet - I can imagine they'd be useful. Cheap stuff is always useful - especially if they're that tough and versatile.

Of course, I love Trixie and Taxidermists are also some of my personal favorites.

Emissary: love the model, can't make it work, not even with Mah, who's probably the best (the only?) master to make it work. Also, not a big fan of big targets costing a lot of SS, at least not in Gremlins. But maybe it's just me and by luck - my Arcane Emissary always dies badly too. He'll stay on the shelf until Wyrd decides it's time to help him (hopefully soon) as he's easily the worst Emissary in the game.

Agree on Bushwhackers x1 - they're good but card hungry like many other in this crew.

Crier - love the guy, but I would imagine he'd be left behind pretty easily plus he doesn't really like to be in melee anyway so hmmm

The rest is all obvious choices - Frank and Burt don't need explanations.

Overall I haven't played with her enough and I don't know if I'd trust her in a tournament...which only means I need to practice more with her

[Math Mathonwy]

So, Mah in the ITC.

I took her to four games there and I still think she's superb.

First game I lost before the game in that I took an idiotic crew against Wong and then copied the Schemes wrong and ended up taking a non-existing Scheme. But@Rosskov played Wong really well and I lost by more than three points so. But Mah pressured Wong really well and zoomed to safety when needed and so on. This was also the only game where I lost Mah.

Second game I faced Neverborn Swampfiend Lynch. Mah zoomed into a corner to kill a Silurid and Bad Juju burst out. Mah endured his attacks and then zoomed away leaving Bad Juju badly out of position (with Trixie ensuring that it stayed that way). Mah tied up a ton of models (and Raphael shot Lynch for 10 damage) giving me the win.

Third game against Hamelin in Close Deployment. I prepped the Francois bomb but flipped a Black Joker so Hamelin barely survived. Out of cards, though, he wasn't able to Summon more Stolen to protect himself and Mah zoomed in for a beginning-of-second-turn kill. Afterwards she did Punish the Weak and Symbols doing most of my points. The table was super weird (way more than half of it was forest) so Mah's Pushes and Unimpeded came in handy.

Fourth game was against Nico and I took Franc bomb again. Once more Black Joker ensured that Mah had to zoom in for a beginning-of-second-turn kill. She did Punish the Weak and Symbols doing most of my points. Unfortunately my opponent had Undercover Entourage as opposed to Take One for the Team and I lost. But it was definitely my best performance against Nicodem in a tournament.

Final game I played Wong and won basically solely through my opponent's horrid luck.

But yeah, Mah is amazing! Her mobility is out of this world and makes her really survivable and really dangerous. I can just imagine how annoying she must be to play against with her absolutely ridiculous threat range. She doesn't do massive damage so don't go after the toughest things but rather target the vulnerable stuff.

Also, amazing opponents. I had five super great games against super cool people.

[Rosskov]

Thanks @Math Mathonwy, I really enjoyed our game. Facing your Mah list was fairly tough but you are a great opponent to play against. I have been experimenting with that Wong crew for a while and it normally spends it's time in the opposite half from turn two. I think I only managed to get more than one model into your half from turn 3 onwards. Being able to hit my master in turn one for half his wounds and then be pulled back to relative safety by trixie is a powerful combination. Particularly when Mah can then be disguised.

You inspired me to try Mah in the next round.

 

It was corner, supply wagons v ten thunders Yan Lo. I managed to kill him in turn one and, between pit traps and mah engaging my opponents crime bosses, stop the wagon being pushed more than 3" in the game. Although it did mean I had to use three models (two with reckless) to push my marker into a scoring position.

Mah tied up two crime bosses for the entire game and only took one wound. She then pushed away at the start of the last turn, dropped a scheme marker, walked, dropped a scheme marker and then did let mah handle this to push an iron Skeeter out of engagement (so it could go and get the third covert breakthrough marker down) and re-engage the two crime bosses to win 8-2.

 

[daniello_s]

One Polish player played Mah against Sandeep and once against Shenlong at the ITC winning both games. There were few instances when opponents made weird moves (like positioning Sandeep 12'' from unactivated Mah and Golem) or flips were lucky (Red Joker on damage, Black Joker on opponents def flip) but he utilized her to the max extent which shows that with good crew (he used the list I showed few posts above once) she is very good master.

[trikk]

2 hours ago, daniello_s said:

One Polish player played Mah against Sandeep and once against Shenlong at the ITC winning both games. There were few instances when opponents made weird moves (like positioning Sandeep 12'' from unactivated Mah and Golem) or flips were lucky (Red Joker on damage, Black Joker on opponents def flip) but he utilized her to the max extent which shows that with good crew (he used the list I showed few posts above once) she is very good master.

AFAIK you just pasted his list that we tested in January

[daniello_s]

32 minutes ago, trikk said:

AFAIK you just pasted his list that we tested in January

You are not the only one who came up with this idea some time ago (since errata time more or less).

What's more his Wong list is basically same as I used to run for a year or so as well.

Seems some choices are so obvious even a puny player like myself can figure them out 😉