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TeddyBear

Proposal: A request of evidences, before making any change at game!

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It's also worth noting that the designers play the game, so it's not like we're relying entirely upon public opinion to figure out the power levels of various things.  :P

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31 minutes ago, Mason said:

It's also worth noting that the designers play the game, so it's not like we're relying entirely upon public opinion to figure out the power levels of various things.  :P

Wuuuut?! And here I thoght you guys had never seen a minis game and just drew rules out of a hat! 😛

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5 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Wuuuut?! And here I thoght you guys had never seen a minis game and just drew rules out of a hat! 😛

A hat? Pshaw.

I prefer to emulate the masters.

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1 hour ago, tmod said:

I have not played with or against the shuffle, but there seems to be some players having at least some success with it. Also read about a "shuffle light" variant doing ok as well, but no first hand experience.

I don't disagree that Nico seems very strong, just bringing it up cause I felt this is a bit of a circle argument:

1. Nico is OP because he has the strongest card draw in the game.

2. Others have stronger card draw.

3. Yeah, but they don't count because they're not OP.

I agree with most of your post, but I feel like this is a very short summary.

My opinion is not that Nico is OP because he has some of the strongest card draw. It's that he has the crazy draw without any possible downside to it (among other things that have pushed him over the edge for me). Nicodem as a summoner needs cards and soulstones to function during his initial Turn 1 and 2 just like any other summoner. However, the recent releases have sped up this process and granted him a lot easier acces to whatever resource he requires, be it cards, soulstones or corpse markers. Other summoners are left completely in the dust.

 

I get his concept, he's supposed to work like some sort of machine that is unstoppable once in motion. He used to have problems getting his engine going as it was reliant on corpse markers. Then he got My Little Helper and Asura Rotten which give him easy access to 4 corpse markers/zombies on Turn 1. This eliminated the corpse marker problem.

The card problem is partially solved by My Little Helper, Phillip and his own aura. Other summoners might have problems with summoning as they don't have the cards, but Nicodem can get an easy 9 card hand WITHOUT summoning. It only gets better as he summons and this allows him to set up for other models or the next Turn. This is his engine already running straight on Turn 1 and all he needed was 3 models: Mortimer with MLH, Phillip and something to drop markers for Phillip. The soulstone cost for your crew is decently large for this, but it means your Turn 3 master is suddenly ready Turn 1. Imagine Yan Lo suddenly getting a model allowing him to get 2 free ascendant upgrades at the start of the game. Would that not be an auto-include and way too strong?

Soulstones (to use in game) are only partially a problem. Most Nicodem players I've seen run 7 stones and they burn 0-3 on the first Turn. Afterwards they barely need any as their hand is ready to dominate afterwards. The most I've seen used was 5 and that was because he had really bad luck with his card draw. Before Wave 5, Nicodem needed those 7 stones, now he needs them a lot less.

Then there is his summoning pool. As others have mentioned, just making it Undead minions opens him up to a very large pool of potential summons. I have no problem with a summoner having options, it's part of their power. Other masters can have strong support or crazy damage, so summoners should get flexibility. But Wave 5 opened a can of worms with Kentauroi. Nicodem went from LOL Turn 1 to WTF DID HE JUST ALPHA ME due to a single model. I've had the pleasure of playing against people who had amazing luck on Turn 1 and got 2 Kentauroi charging in my crew on Turn 1. I believe this should not be possible.

 

My most-played summoners are Asami follwed by The Dreamer. Asami can also alpha an opponent with a summon, but she has to spend quite a lot of AP, cards and a Wound for that to happen. Nicodem can summon a Kentauroi, still have a stacked hand from all the card draw and he doesn't have any sort of penalty for doing this.

The Dreamer works rather differently as he usually summons in Lilitu to lure something closer and then pound that thing with Stitched Togethers or his other crew members. The difference is that Dreamer needs a lot more investment than Nicodem who can just summon, fire and forget.

 

The point I'm trying to make with these examples is that Nicodem was supposed to have his own sort of gimmick. Due to constant new Waves, he has managed to take the gimmick of all the other masters AND manages to eclipse them in those gimmicks. I believe that this is not a healthy situation for the game and especially for the Resser faction as they currently have barely any reason to take a master besides Nicodem. Well, except to play for fun or to make it a fair game for the opponent.

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Just wanted to point out as well, while the majority of the conversation is on Nico, but Sandeep definitely needs a nerf and that's coming from someone who regularly uses him. I hope they don't smack him down too hard, but i'd also like to not feel like half of my other masters (especially poor Colette) are subpar options in comparison.

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On 5/23/2018 at 12:41 PM, whodares said:

I agree with most of your post, but I feel like this is a very short summary.

My opinion is not that Nico is OP because he has some of the strongest card draw. It's that he has the crazy draw without any possible downside to it (among other things that have pushed him over the edge for me). Nicodem as a summoner needs cards and soulstones to function during his initial Turn 1 and 2 just like any other summoner. However, the recent releases have sped up this process and granted him a lot easier acces to whatever resource he requires, be it cards, soulstones or corpse markers. Other summoners are left completely in the dust.

 

I get his concept, he's supposed to work like some sort of machine that is unstoppable once in motion. He used to have problems getting his engine going as it was reliant on corpse markers. Then he got My Little Helper and Asura Rotten which give him easy access to 4 corpse markers/zombies on Turn 1. This eliminated the corpse marker problem.

The card problem is partially solved by My Little Helper, Phillip and his own aura. Other summoners might have problems with summoning as they don't have the cards, but Nicodem can get an easy 9 card hand WITHOUT summoning. It only gets better as he summons and this allows him to set up for other models or the next Turn. This is his engine already running straight on Turn 1 and all he needed was 3 models: Mortimer with MLH, Phillip and something to drop markers for Phillip. The soulstone cost for your crew is decently large for this, but it means your Turn 3 master is suddenly ready Turn 1. Imagine Yan Lo suddenly getting a model allowing him to get 2 free ascendant upgrades at the start of the game. Would that not be an auto-include and way too strong?

Soulstones (to use in game) are only partially a problem. Most Nicodem players I've seen run 7 stones and they burn 0-3 on the first Turn. Afterwards they barely need any as their hand is ready to dominate afterwards. The most I've seen used was 5 and that was because he had really bad luck with his card draw. Before Wave 5, Nicodem needed those 7 stones, now he needs them a lot less.

Then there is his summoning pool. As others have mentioned, just making it Undead minions opens him up to a very large pool of potential summons. I have no problem with a summoner having options, it's part of their power. Other masters can have strong support or crazy damage, so summoners should get flexibility. But Wave 5 opened a can of worms with Kentauroi. Nicodem went from LOL Turn 1 to WTF DID HE JUST ALPHA ME due to a single model. I've had the pleasure of playing against people who had amazing luck on Turn 1 and got 2 Kentauroi charging in my crew on Turn 1. I believe this should not be possible.

 

My most-played summoners are Asami follwed by The Dreamer. Asami can also alpha an opponent with a summon, but she has to spend quite a lot of AP, cards and a Wound for that to happen. Nicodem can summon a Kentauroi, still have a stacked hand from all the card draw and he doesn't have any sort of penalty for doing this.

The Dreamer works rather differently as he usually summons in Lilitu to lure something closer and then pound that thing with Stitched Togethers or his other crew members. The difference is that Dreamer needs a lot more investment than Nicodem who can just summon, fire and forget.

 

The point I'm trying to make with these examples is that Nicodem was supposed to have his own sort of gimmick. Due to constant new Waves, he has managed to take the gimmick of all the other masters AND manages to eclipse them in those gimmicks. I believe that this is not a healthy situation for the game and especially for the Resser faction as they currently have barely any reason to take a master besides Nicodem. Well, except to play for fun or to make it a fair game for the opponent.

 

I just did yesterday major play testing with Nico using one of the nerfs that are suggested all over, I didn't allow myself to draw cards from peon deaths and sacrifices. I also with the direction of my Henchman tried increasing the summon cost by 1 for all models, and only bringing them in on one health, to see if that would balance summoning. This completely gutted the power of the summoning. I had to use Patchwork with every summon just to have anything that wouldn't get destroyed from range attacks off the bat. And when I had nothing higher then an 11 in my hand I had to use 4 corpse markers to make one 5 wound Kentatori. It felt like I was playing without enough corpse markers all game. The nerf to I Can Use That made it completely useless as I only got one card draw off it all game as the opponent only attacked living models near Nico and undead outside his bubble. The Zombies were pointless because I never had any after Nico went, so Asura's translated attack was pointless. All said and done I never got more then one summon off a turn and felt like I could have played without Manical Laughter that entire game. The only Zombies that actually were of use were the ones Asura put down up the board to tie up enemies.

I would say nerfing the summoning in any way takes out Nico's prime advantage. If you take out the card draw you make summoning slow down to something akin to Molly or Kirai, but both of them will actually have faster when you take into consideration Take Back the Night. Nico still needs such a massive points spend on his support models now that reductions in summoning will gut him to a level not as strong as other summoners.

I find it has to be one or the other in nerfing card draw or summoning, and not both on whatever tweaks are going to be made. If both get made he comes to the board without a single key advantage as you are fighting to just summon to survive instead of using the summons to win the game. I know because that is what I ended up doing all game myself. You remove Mort, Phillip, or Asura from the mix you now loose twice as much in resource generating, thus you are forced to take all those models now or be a very slow summoner.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Toastmn said:

 

I just did yesterday major play testing with Nico using one of the nerfs that are suggested all over, I didn't allow myself to draw cards from peon deaths and sacrifices. I also with the direction of my Henchman tried increasing the summon cost by 1 for all models, and only bringing them in on one health, to see if that would balance summoning. This completely gutted the power of the summoning. I had to use Patchwork with every summon just to have anything that wouldn't get destroyed from range attacks off the bat. And when I had nothing higher then an 11 in my hand I had to use 4 corpse markers to make one 5 wound Kentatori. It felt like I was playing without enough corpse markers all game. The nerf to I Can Use That made it completely useless as I only got one card draw off it all game as the opponent only attacked living models near Nico and undead outside his bubble. The Zombies were pointless because I never had any after Nico went, so Asura's translated attack was pointless. All said and done I never got more then one summon off a turn and felt like I could have played without Manical Laughter that entire game. The only Zombies that actually were of use were the ones Asura put down up the board to tie up enemies.

I would say nerfing the summoning in any way takes out Nico's prime advantage. If you take out the card draw you make summoning slow down to something akin to Molly or Kirai, but both of them will actually have faster when you take into consideration Take Back the Night. Nico still needs such a massive points spend on his support models now that reductions in summoning will gut him to a level not as strong as other summoners.

I find it has to be one or the other in nerfing card draw or summoning, and not both on whatever tweaks are going to be made. If both get made he comes to the board without a single key advantage as you are fighting to just summon to survive instead of using the summons to win the game. I know because that is what I ended up doing all game myself. You remove Mort, Phillip, or Asura from the mix you now loose twice as much in resource generating, thus you are forced to take all those models now or be a very slow summoner.

 

 

 

Never test more than 1 rule at a time. You nerfed him in 3 different areas, 1 of which is a pretty large nerf and 1 being a massive nerf. There's a reason that the only summoner that summons in models at 1 HP has a passive healing aura.

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17 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Never test more than 1 rule at a time. You nerfed him in 3 different areas, 1 of which is a pretty large nerf and 1 being a massive nerf. There's a reason that the only summoner that summons in models at 1 HP has a passive healing aura.

I thought so too. Yet these combined nerfs seem to be what the most of the community is calling for. If they have their way is will destroy Nico.

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1 minute ago, Toastmn said:

I thought so too. Yet these combined nerfs seem to be what the most of the community is calling for. If they have their way is will destroy Nico.

No, they really aren't. And even if they were, Wyrd doesn't just balance based on the whims of the community.

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2 hours ago, Toastmn said:

I also with the direction of my Henchman tried increasing the summon cost by 1 for all models, and only bringing them in on one health, to see if that would balance summoning.

Your local Henchman has very peculiar understanding of that game's balance I must say.

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6 hours ago, Toastmn said:

 

I just did yesterday major play testing with Nico using one of the nerfs that are suggested all over, I didn't allow myself to draw cards from peon deaths and sacrifices. I also with the direction of my Henchman tried increasing the summon cost by 1 for all models, and only bringing them in on one health, to see if that would balance summoning. This completely gutted the power of the summoning. I had to use Patchwork with every summon just to have anything that wouldn't get destroyed from range attacks off the bat. And when I had nothing higher then an 11 in my hand I had to use 4 corpse markers to make one 5 wound Kentatori. It felt like I was playing without enough corpse markers all game. The nerf to I Can Use That made it completely useless as I only got one card draw off it all game as the opponent only attacked living models near Nico and undead outside his bubble. The Zombies were pointless because I never had any after Nico went, so Asura's translated attack was pointless. All said and done I never got more then one summon off a turn and felt like I could have played without Manical Laughter that entire game. The only Zombies that actually were of use were the ones Asura put down up the board to tie up enemies.

I would say nerfing the summoning in any way takes out Nico's prime advantage. If you take out the card draw you make summoning slow down to something akin to Molly or Kirai, but both of them will actually have faster when you take into consideration Take Back the Night. Nico still needs such a massive points spend on his support models now that reductions in summoning will gut him to a level not as strong as other summoners.

I find it has to be one or the other in nerfing card draw or summoning, and not both on whatever tweaks are going to be made. If both get made he comes to the board without a single key advantage as you are fighting to just summon to survive instead of using the summons to win the game. I know because that is what I ended up doing all game myself. You remove Mort, Phillip, or Asura from the mix you now loose twice as much in resource generating, thus you are forced to take all those models now or be a very slow summoner.

I find it strange that nerfing his summoning would take away his prime advantage. Perhaps we've been focussing too much on just his summoning, but have you read what else he can do to support his crew?

Rigor Mortis: Give an enemy slow or a friendly Undead fast. has 14" range and requires a 4 to get off for the fast. That's pretty strong, especially when his summoned models are not slowed, even immune to slow within his aura.

Decay: Blast attack that heals friendly Undead and damages enemies. Built-in trigger to fully heal a friendly model hit by this action for the cost of a Corpse Marker.

UPGRADE: Undead Crowning: :+flip to damage and Ca for all friendly Undead models within 8".

 

I'd say he has plenty of stuff on his card and a decent upgrade to properly support his crew. Right now the fact is just that his summoning is so strong that nobody even seems to look at the rest of his card.

 

 

I'm not certain why you had to use 4 corpse markers to summon a single Kentauroi with an 11, even coming in on 1 Wound and stone cost +1. You would need 2 markers for +2 Ca, 1 marker for the heal and possibly a stone in case your 11 isn't a crow. That still nets me only 3 markers instead of the 4 you've used.

 

 

About your comment that he can only summon 1 model per Turn if you take away his crazy card engine: welcome to the club. You already get extra cards thanks to Phillip in comparison to other factions and they can seem to do just fine when it comes to summoning. You're also not forced to always summon 11+ card requirement models every single Turn. Nicodem has a huge summoning pool and answers to pretty much any situation. Need scheme markers, get Crooligans, etc....

 

 

 

As others have said here: you really went hard mode on yourself. Summoning on 1 Wound is not something Nicodem needs, that's Dreamer's downside. Upping the summoning cost is also not needed as it would make Hanged impossible to summon and I'd say they are (or were) a big part of his identity. Hitting his resource generation seems to be the most logical, followed by also taking away the ability to summon Kentauroi. Kentauroi don't pose a problem with Molly due to how she summons, but Nicodem clearly was not designed for this interaction.

 

I trust Wyrd to take the correct actions in order to balance the field some more. Playtesters can miss things or underestimate the impact of certain changes. At least Wyrd acknowledges there are problems and takes action to fix them.

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3 hours ago, whodares said:

I find it strange that nerfing his summoning would take away his prime advantage. Perhaps we've been focussing too much on just his summoning, but have you read what else he can do to support his crew?

Rigor Mortis: Give an enemy slow or a friendly Undead fast. has 14" range and requires a 4 to get off for the fast. That's pretty strong, especially when his summoned models are not slowed, even immune to slow within his aura.

Decay: Blast attack that heals friendly Undead and damages enemies. Built-in trigger to fully heal a friendly model hit by this action for the cost of a Corpse Marker.

UPGRADE: Undead Crowning: :+flip to damage and Ca for all friendly Undead models within 8".

 

I'd say he has plenty of stuff on his card and a decent upgrade to properly support his crew. Right now the fact is just that his summoning is so strong that nobody even seems to look at the rest of his card.

 

 

I'm not certain why you had to use 4 corpse markers to summon a single Kentauroi with an 11, even coming in on 1 Wound and stone cost +1. You would need 2 markers for +2 Ca, 1 marker for the heal and possibly a stone in case your 11 isn't a crow. That still nets me only 3 markers instead of the 4 you've used.

 

 

About your comment that he can only summon 1 model per Turn if you take away his crazy card engine: welcome to the club. You already get extra cards thanks to Phillip in comparison to other factions and they can seem to do just fine when it comes to summoning. You're also not forced to always summon 11+ card requirement models every single Turn. Nicodem has a huge summoning pool and answers to pretty much any situation. Need scheme markers, get Crooligans, etc....

 

 

 

As others have said here: you really went hard mode on yourself. Summoning on 1 Wound is not something Nicodem needs, that's Dreamer's downside. Upping the summoning cost is also not needed as it would make Hanged impossible to summon and I'd say they are (or were) a big part of his identity. Hitting his resource generation seems to be the most logical, followed by also taking away the ability to summon Kentauroi. Kentauroi don't pose a problem with Molly due to how she summons, but Nicodem clearly was not designed for this interaction.

 

I trust Wyrd to take the correct actions in order to balance the field some more. Playtesters can miss things or underestimate the impact of certain changes. At least Wyrd acknowledges there are problems and takes action to fix them.

I think you may want to go back and re-read my post. You seem to have missed many details in your response.

As I stated, my opponent was using ranged attacks on me, so the bubble around Nico was mostly his support pieces while I had to use my summons to move out and tie up his range pieces. This meant summoning, healing and making Fast every turn to get off the move and attacks. Only things I had at my disposal that coudl reach that far were Kentatori and Shikome. Kents summon natively at a 12crow, and Shikome at 11crow. With the nerfs I had, when the highest I had in my hand was an 11, I needed a 13 to summon the Kent. That meant two sacs of corpses to raise casting by 2, one more sac to summon with only 1 wound, and 1 more to bring him to 5 wounds. Without the nerfs he could have been brought in with nearly full wounds with only 3 corpse.

I was out of points to Take Undead Crowning, nor would it have helped since I couldn't get anyone into my bubble until turn 5. All spare corpses that were generated were well outside Nico's reach, so I could only rely on what Mort and Asura could make. Phillip sand my card draw each turn was just not doing it for the cycling, by turn 5 I pulled no crows and had no stones. this proved to me that nerfing is going to make it that Nico will need to run with full stones again. 

As for not summoning 11 and up card summons, with the nerfs I had over half of his summon list was now 11+, so your assessment there was off, and everything left would need a 9 or 10 with nothing in there that was particularly speedy or killy at range. This is what left me with only getting off 4 summons all game, compounding things by making zombies with Maniacal Laughter a waste of time since I had to sac all of them in a turn to counter act the nerfs.

My opponent was smart enough/lucky enough to not have to attack any undead inside Nico's bubble, so They never got to benefit from his pulse flips or he benefit from the card draw, so its easy to counter that bubble and always has been unless you just flood the board with belles. I was unable to summon enough belles because of the situation facing a lot of range attacks, so I got very little chance to Lure. The nerfed summoning would have meant If I had proprieties on belles I would have had not much in good health/Fast to melee with. Also, keep in mind I was now struggling to have enough corpse markers in that situation due to how spread out I had to fight. If I was facing Neverborn or constructs, it would have been the same there as well as much of their pieces don't drop corpses.

My conclusion after that test is that nerfs to Nico's summoning is not needed. Nerfing out card draw off the peons may re-balance him enough by itself.

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52 minutes ago, Toastmn said:

snip

I think you missed the part where I transitioned from the faulty experiment you tried to the general statements I made. You used 2 nerfs that will never happen for Nicodem in the 1 Wound summoning and the upping of summoning costs. You also seem to play on an open map without cover if your opponent can bring in that many sniper-type models.

 

Granted that you disregards those 2 nerfs, do you think it is normal that a backline summoner should be able to threaten backline sniper models with a single summon (Kentauroi, Shikome)? On the first Turn?

My comment about the lower cards summoning was also disregarding those 2 nerfs. Hell, even with the nerfs he now has to pay thesame cost cardwise as the other summoners.

If your opponent doesn't have to attack any undead in Nicodem's bubble, I'd also say you're either doing something very right by tying up his models or something very wrong in giving him targets he shouldn't have.

 

 

Your entire conclusion is based on a faulty premise and can be easily dismissed.

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4 minutes ago, whodares said:

I think you missed the part where I transitioned from the faulty experiment you tried to the general statements I made. You used 2 nerfs that will never happen for Nicodem in the 1 Wound summoning and the upping of summoning costs. You also seem to play on an open map without cover if your opponent can bring in that many sniper-type models.

 

Granted that you disregards those 2 nerfs, do you think it is normal that a backline summoner should be able to threaten backline sniper models with a single summon (Kentauroi, Shikome)? On the first Turn?

My comment about the lower cards summoning was also disregarding those 2 nerfs. Hell, even with the nerfs he now has to pay thesame cost cardwise as the other summoners.

If your opponent doesn't have to attack any undead in Nicodem's bubble, I'd also say you're either doing something very right by tying up his models or something very wrong in giving him targets he shouldn't have.

 

 

Your entire conclusion is based on a faulty premise and can be easily dismissed.

Now you are making a faulty premise. All the models I had to tie up were actually in the mid-field, and all had heavy ranged attacks. I never got into the opposing back field.

By disregarding the nerfs you are not adding anything to the discussion. I know how Nico works, I've played him for 3 years, I don't need you to educate me on his abilities.

I played a game where someone played a good counter to Nico using a ranged crew. I used my summons to counter his range, and the nerfs to the summoning and card draw slowed me down so much that I wasn't able to summon in a way to target my objectives or get an offensive advantages. The game ended up very low score and nico's typical summoning was now at 50 to 60 percent its speed even with the accelerated corpse making.

I did this double nerf to see what the result would be from the combined calls of the community to reduce card draw and summoning on Nico would be. Taking the Kents away from Nico isn't going to happen either, as that would just be a bad business decision in general in my view. Now, let's see you try this combo of nerfs out and post your results, and actually add to the discussion.

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9 minutes ago, Toastmn said:

Now you are making a faulty premise. All the models I had to tie up were actually in the mid-field, and all had heavy ranged attacks. I never got into the opposing back field.

By disregarding the nerfs you are not adding anything to the discussion. I know how Nico works, I've played him for 3 years, I don't need you to educate me on his abilities.

I played a game where someone played a good counter to Nico using a ranged crew. I used my summons to counter his range, and the nerfs to the summoning and card draw slowed me down so much that I wasn't able to summon in a way to target my objectives or get an offensive advantages. The game ended up very low score and nico's typical summoning was now at 50 to 60 percent its speed even with the accelerated corpse making.

I did this double nerf to see what the result would be from the combined calls of the community to reduce card draw and summoning on Nico would be. Taking the Kents away from Nico isn't going to happen either, as that would just be a bad business decision in general in my view. Now, let's see you try this combo of nerfs out and post your results, and actually add to the discussion.

There's no point in trying out that combination of nerfs. Anyone should be able to see that increasing the costs of all his summons by 1 while also making his summons come in at 1wd is going to neuter him. They're not going to happen, his summoning is fine. It's his ease of summoning that's the issue.

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10 minutes ago, Toastmn said:

Now you are making a faulty premise. All the models I had to tie up were actually in the mid-field, and all had heavy ranged attacks. I never got into the opposing back field.

By disregarding the nerfs you are not adding anything to the discussion. I know how Nico works, I've played him for 3 years, I don't need you to educate me on his abilities.

I played a game where someone played a good counter to Nico using a ranged crew. I used my summons to counter his range, and the nerfs to the summoning and card draw slowed me down so much that I wasn't able to summon in a way to target my objectives or get an offensive advantages. The game ended up very low score and nico's typical summoning was now at 50 to 60 percent its speed even with the accelerated corpse making.

I did this double nerf to see what the result would be from the combined calls of the community to reduce card draw and summoning on Nico would be. Taking the Kents away from Nico isn't going to happen either, as that would just be a bad business decision in general in my view. Now, let's see you try this combo of nerfs out and post your results, and actually add to the discussion.

That's the entire point! Nobody in his right mind would even hit Nicodem with 2 of them, 1 Wd summoning and +1 cost, to begin with. It's like saying: let's see how good Dreamer is if we take away his healing aura and up his summoning cost by +1. Oh, he's bad, who could have guessed? DERPDERPDERP

A ranged crew can work, but only if the table allows it. Either your positioning was bad or your table was nearly empty if he could always snipe away newly-summoned models. Take that same situation with just the card-generating nerf and you'll still see Nicodem outperforms due to his incredible summoning pool and Kentauroi for free repositioning. 

You then mention a low-scoring game which seems to be fine if your opponent is tied up always killing your summons. Can't scheme if your AP is being drained for attacks. Or are you saying Nicodem is balanced in having the cake and eating it too? Should a single master activation be able to deny an entire Turn for an opponent?

 

I would personally like it if Wyrd took the slower nerfing approach and took away his Kentauroi summoning + Mindless Zombie card generation. Hiring Kentauroi is just fine, but being able to summon them as easy as he can right now is too much awesomeness and unbalanced. Mindless Zombies being moving corpse markers as they have always been is also fine and part of the identity of Ressers.

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1 minute ago, whodares said:

That's the entire point! Nobody in his right mind would even hit Nicodem with 2 of them, 1 Wd summoning and +1 cost, to begin with. It's like saying: let's see how good Dreamer is if we take away his healing aura and up his summoning cost by +1. Oh, he's bad, who could have guessed? DERPDERPDERP

A ranged crew can work, but only if the table allows it. Either your positioning was bad or your table was nearly empty if he could always snipe away newly-summoned models. Take that same situation with just the card-generating nerf and you'll still see Nicodem outperforms due to his incredible summoning pool and Kentauroi for free repositioning. 

You then mention a low-scoring game which seems to be fine if your opponent is tied up always killing your summons. Can't scheme if your AP is being drained for attacks. Or are you saying Nicodem is balanced in having the cake and eating it too? Should a single master activation be able to deny an entire Turn for an opponent?

 

I would personally like it if Wyrd took the slower nerfing approach and took away his Kentauroi summoning + Mindless Zombie card generation. Hiring Kentauroi is just fine, but being able to summon them as easy as he can right now is too much awesomeness and unbalanced. Mindless Zombies being moving corpse markers as they have always been is also fine and part of the identity of Ressers.

I don't understand why you can't concede the value of the experiment since it is what the community is talking about. Or are you only interested in making mean comments? (DERPDERPDERP for example?!}

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Just now, Toastmn said:

I don't understand why you can't concede the value of the experiment since it is what the community is talking about. Or are you only interested in making mean comments? (DERPDERPDERP for example?!}

Because the experiment doesn't have any value. It's like I've been saying and as @santaclaws01 has said: you completely gutted him in a way anyone with a brain could see it coming. Should I ask for an experiment removing Shenlong's ability to change stances or can we clearly see this would be the dumbest thing to do as it would make Shenlong worst in faction?

The nerfs you tried mostly had no realistic point of value, you combined 2 overnerfs with something that could possible be done and then make a point about the totality of your "experiment".

If you just used the card generation nerf, I would gladly admit value to your experiment. As it stands right now, you completely gut him, YET still managed to get an even game. This mostly has to do with player skill instead of master ability.

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2 minutes ago, whodares said:

Because the experiment doesn't have any value. It's like I've been saying and as @santaclaws01 has said: you completely gutted him in a way anyone with a brain could see it coming. Should I ask for an experiment removing Shenlong's ability to change stances or can we clearly see this would be the dumbest thing to do as it would make Shenlong worst in faction?

The nerfs you tried mostly had no realistic point of value, you combined 2 overnerfs with something that could possible be done and then make a point about the totality of your "experiment".

If you just used the card generation nerf, I would gladly admit value to your experiment. As it stands right now, you completely gut him, YET still managed to get an even game. This mostly has to do with player skill instead of master ability.

Fine, I will admit the summoning nerfs are too far, if you admit restricting Kent summons is something that will also won't be considered. The company will not allow such a popular new piece to be detracted in such a way that it could reduce sales.

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18 minutes ago, Toastmn said:

Unfortunately for you, this makes you a hypocritical troll, as you were the first one to criticize and belittle the approach that was play tested without even bothering to consider its merits. All this while going on about nerfing Kentatori as if that solves the problem. Yet, I've not heard anyone bitch and complain about having a Yasonori tossed in their face the same way. You should try giving other people's ideas a little more thought before you tell them they are wrong.

 

At least I'm working to see what solutions could work, you are just flapping your gums while not even play testing a thing.

Your "playtest" was useless and you were abusing it to draw faulty conclusions just so they wouldn't nerf your precious Nicodem. There are plenty of people that agree that the Kentauroi interaction with Nicodem is most certainly on the more powerside of the spectrum. A single nerf will never solve the problem, a series of smaller, more compact nerfs can tone Nicodem down.

 

Plenty of people complain about Yasunori, which is why they upped his cost by 1 and Terracotta Warrior's cost also by 1. I rather feel that nerf was unnecessary, but I trust Wyrd in mlaking good decisions for the game. Ultimately this did not stop me from running them, but it did decrease overall power of all my crews. Something a mid-tier faction like Thunders didn't deserve, but oh well.

I applaud you for trying something, but next time at least try and think before you come playing expert. Running tests just for the sake of proving an obvious and easily understandable point is not helping the discussion further.

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19 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Never test more than 1 rule at a time. You nerfed him in 3 different areas, 1 of which is a pretty large nerf and 1 being a massive nerf. There's a reason that the only summoner that summons in models at 1 HP has a passive healing aura.

Couldn't agree more. This is basic testing methodology - you isolate one factor and try to measure its impact (in this case, you see what effect each nerf has on a crew). Then you repeat the tests. Then you test other factors the same way.

You don't combine them until much later, once you understand how each one affects the crew's operation. Otherwise, your data could be the result of any number of those changes, or any combination of them.

Nicodem needs to be toned down. It's probably something that can be done by changing Kentauroi to be non-summonable by Nicodem, making I Can Use That! only work on killed models, and/or maybe one or two other things. Claiming that he doesn't need a cuddle because of results from improper testing methodologies is manufacturing your data by design, which makes the argument easy to dismiss.

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2 hours ago, Toastmn said:

Yet, I've not heard anyone bitch and complain about having a Yasonori tossed in their face the same way.

So the entirety of august 2016-this janurary just didn't happen? He was definitely complained about. A lot.

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It's funny to hear all those complains about "autowinning" masters, especialy with my previous experience of playing Warhammer 40k.

I faced "overpowered" Sandeep 3-4 times - and every time I beat him. I faced Nicodem last tourney - and beat him 10-4.

Of course I can't say that all my opponents were top-1 tournament players, or that all of their lists were super-optimised.

But there's a thing: in Malifaux I can't say that there's a master that can give a low-skill player an auto-victory over a skilled one. The most of any victory lies in the hands and mind of a player, not in models or rules. And that's the balance as it should be.

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43 minutes ago, Domin said:

It's funny to hear all those complains about "autowinning" masters, especialy with my previous experience of playing Warhammer 40k.

I faced "overpowered" Sandeep 3-4 times - and every time I beat him. I faced Nicodem last tourney - and beat him 10-4.

Of course I can't say that all my opponents were top-1 tournament players, or that all of their lists were super-optimised.

But there's a thing: in Malifaux I can't say that there's a master that can give a low-skill player an auto-victory over a skilled one. The most of any victory lies in the hands and mind of a player, not in models or rules. And that's the balance as it should be.

I agree that there's no auto-win Master. However, you've outright stated that your opponents' lists weren't optimised and that they weren't necessarily excellent players.

You pretty much have to build a crew to play against the top-tier Nicodem crews using Asura Roten, Kentauroi summoning and Sebastian. If you can't  alpha strike, you're almost certainly going to lose. It'd be like going up against Craftworld Eldar in 7th ed 40K - it's beatable, but you have to have a bit of luck and know exactly what to take/do against it.

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The imbalance between masters only starts to be really felt when you are on a very tight skill level. I could probably play the most OP crap imaginable and still lose to a mediocre list built by a much stronger player. Until you both hit the "skill cap" or whatever you would like to call it skill is more important than many list choices. 

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