Proposal: A request of evidences, before making any change at game!

[cbtb11235813]

12 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

Duncan Bilz, stopped plays with Sonnia that you know? 

He still plays her consistently. Solo'd her for Adepticon and took 2nd, 1st in the team tournament, and 3rd in the story encounter (I don't think her solo'd her there, but played her at least once). I'm going to the same tournament as him this weekend, and I plan to see plenty of Sonnia 

[TeddyBear]

47 minutes ago, Haagrum said:

@edopersichetti was expressing strong support for the ideas in the post quoted.

@edopersichetti have nothing to expressing strong support, as i said before, i don't play with sandeep or nicodem. This year, after announce of gg2018  i have only 3 casual games with Sandeep after i just played only Gremlins until today. Free unnecessary personal attacks makes me irritating.

I don't want, as usual, this thread become a place full of unnecessary insinuations. Is it true i am opposed to nerfs, but if supported by good reasons, all right. 

If there is a problem (for example)  with Nicodem and his method for drawing cards (despite he is this, from release of game) then, there's also a problem with some Neverborn, Outcast, Gremlins and TT.

 

 

[Haagrum]

As a mostly-Neverborn player, I'm all for nerfing Bloodwretches to only draw cards when targeting enemy models. That'd be enough to fix them, without making them garbage. The combination with a Doppelgänger and Serena Bowman is a bit too much like playing solitaire.

[-Loki-]

You're effectively asking them to 'show your working'. I find that an incredibly entitled attitude. They don't have to explain why they make their balance adjustments, it's their game. You're not their teacher to sit there and say 'you're wrong, here's why'.

[TeddyBear]

12 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I think releasing Reva closely after Levi's nerf is a bad joke. She is so similar to him in so many ways that I don't see why they nerfed Levi's attack aspect in the first place. At least she isn't immortal.

Also, i wanted to quote again Ludvig, in relation to this sentence, to ask you all, how many of you are agree? i'm completely agree with Ludvig, although we have differing opinions about nerfs.

I ask you: Wouldn't it be better leave Levi has he was? I think that's normal that every year there are new stronger release then old, this is marketing. But i wonder why weaken one master and after release a similar new one? What i ask is just more transparency (allow me the term)

 

 

[TeddyBear]

10 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

You're effectively asking them to 'show your working'. I find that an incredibly entitled attitude. They don't have to explain why they make their balance adjustments, it's their game. You're not their teacher to sit there and say 'you're wrong, here's why'. 

here's another "keyboard lion"😁

Wanna hear something? I try to ask.. then whatever Wyrd's developers will decide, neither you or me be able to change it.

[-Loki-]

Lol, keyboard lion.

[TeddyBear]

12 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

Lol, keyboard lion.

oh right, it is just a "slang" expression to say "someone acts tough, behind the screen of his pc" probably there is no translation..🤓

anyway you should learn to stick to speak only about discussion.. 

[-Loki-]

I was acting tough? I have an opinion of your attitude, that seems to have struck a nerve. 

I didn’t ask you to meet me round the back alley for some fisticuffs.

[TeddyBear]

11 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

I was acting tough? I have an opinion of your attitude, that seems to have struck a nerve. 

I didn’t ask you to meet me round the back alley for some fisticuffs. 

then, i don't understand, why you say "you're not their teacher".. i don't want teach anything to anyone..i seems i made  a fair question? or no? why do you give me these appellations?  You can't answer civilly, with maybe one " i can't agree for these reasons exc exc.."?

Anyway, it's ok..

[-Loki-]

I didn’t realise I wasn’t being civil. I could have used harsher language.

What I meant was the whole ‘show your evidence’ is a lot like a math teacher berating you and marking you down for not showing your working in an exam in high school.

They have no obligation to do so. They do explain it though, and have in each errata thread.

[TeddyBear]

30 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

I didn’t realise I wasn’t being civil. I could have used harsher Language.

i quote myself, lol

2 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

Free unnecessary personal attacks makes me irritating.

I don't think you understand, "Civil" in the sense that you could, speaking only about this discussion, why bring flames in discussion? Sorry but you're no one to judje my attitude. Which i then repeat it seems to me a fair proposal.. then if wyrd developers will want answer me, good. If  no, no problem.

If you had use harsher language, i would've adapt accordingly surely.

Certainly, i can make a mistake in the title, often i use a web translate, this may cause misunderstanding, if someone else has received impression of "a math teacher" i apologize, i didn't mean to.

 

[-Loki-]

But I am addressing the thread. I feel the entire idea incredibly entitled, as I first said.

[Regelridderen]

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

... this is marketing..

This isn’t marketing, this is idiocy.

Games Workshop has proven pretty well, how that business model just causes your player base to migrate into other games. When it comes to tabletop gaming no company has the juice to ignore their fans, as marketing is primarily via word of mouth, players recruiting other players etc.. Wyrd has done a wonderful job in combatting the need for a flavor of the month simply by not using fixed lists, and allowing players to change their setup, dependant on scenario and opponents. Yet with seven factions, a throng of different Masters and even more models, it would be odd if one or two didn’t stand above the rest - especially when constantly releasing new models.

And in an age, where errata can be implemented at the drop of a hat - and an app upgrade - there is no reason, not to react to ones customers.

 

[TeddyBear]

41 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

This isn’t marketing, this is idiocy.

Games Workshop has proven pretty well, how that business model just causes your player base to migrate into other games. When it comes to tabletop gaming no company has the juice to ignore their fans, as marketing is primarily via word of mouth, players recruiting other players etc.. Wyrd has done a wonderful job in combatting the need for a flavor of the month simply by not using fixed lists, and allowing players to change their setup, dependant on scenario and opponents. Yet with seven factions, a throng of different Masters and even more models, it would be odd if one or two didn’t stand above the rest - especially when constantly releasing new models.

And in an age, where errata can be implemented at the drop of a hat - and an app upgrade - there is no reason, not to react to ones customers. 

 

i hope and i pray be so.. i don't know anything about Gw, but i heard about their problems.

I'm sure you're agree with me, that last Masters [Edit. apart Parker] are a little be better then old, it makes sense to me..

In my opinion probably GG do a lot in this sense, but i don't have appropriate knowledge to be sure..

[Zebo]

I don't feel Parker being better than any previous Outcast Master. 

[Adran]

<modhat> Please consider your comments. Humans don't read tone and intent very well, especially if you are not in your native language. If you write something and think it could be mis interpreted try and write it differently. If you read something and think it's insulting you, stop and see if it could be read differently. I choose to believe we're all here because we like this game and want it to be as good as it can. And because of that we don't deliberately insult each other. <end modhat>

Personally I don't know if there is a summer errata planned, the schedule you are thinking of was Aaron's and he has left. He has posted previously on why some things changed, and what you can say is that they don't just see what the forums say and copy that. Any changes that do happen are ones they have looked carefully at. I don't know who the lead is at the moment, but I think wyrd as a company has earnt my trust on these that it's not just decided by volume or by the magic8 ball. It's nice if they tell us why they changed it, but it isn't essential and could lead to other issues so I just go on trust.

I'm not a fan of nerfs but for the same reason I'm not a fan of buffs, I have to get a new card either way. I don't play enough tournament games at the moment to know all the problems and even when I was a good player I didn't follow the norms on power lists and disagreed that a lot of them were problems, because to me they weren't. I'm much more worried about an ok list in the hands of a good player, than an amazing list in the hands of an ok player. I guess this puts me nearer Justin thinking than Aaron thinking about errata. I've not had a nerf that has stopped me using a model. Others may but I used a stuffed pig because I wanted a stuffed pig, not because it was 2 stones for an activation.

[TeddyBear]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

<modhat> Please consider your comments. Humans don't read tone and intent very well, especially if you are not in your native language. If you write something and think it could be mis interpreted try and write it differently. If you read something and think it's insulting you, stop and see if it could be read differently. I choose to believe we're all here because we like this game and want it to be as good as it can. And because of that we don't deliberately insult each other. <end modhat>

I don't understand, i asked bad the question? As i wrote is not good? 

But in fact, i would have preferred, that we limited to answer at discussion, but if someone turning the debate in personal attacks,  i preferred answer consequently. 

When i say that i don't play with Nico or Sandeep, why suggest otherwise?!? What does this with discussion?

 

1 hour ago, Adran said:

t's nice if they tell us why they changed it, but it isn't essential and could lead to other issues so I just go on trust.

Why you say this? Why other issues? i may be wrong, but talking as customer, i wish it was like that.

But for example: there is some masters that can drawing so much cards, this is perceived like a problem; as i asked in previous posts wouldn't be possible improve some single mercenary models, that can negate drawing cards mechanics? insetad nerfs

And what about my question on Levi/Reva..? 

I would really like to clarify that, i'm not a fan for nerfs for every masters, not only for nico or sandeep. But if Nico's drawing mechanics are a problem, for me there is a problems also with other many masters.

[santaclaws01]

8 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

But for example: there is some masters that can drawing so much cards, this is perceived like a problem; as i asked in previous posts wouldn't be possible improve some single mercenary models, that can negate drawing cards mechanics? insetad nerfs

Because this just leads to bloat. Model A has insane card draw. Create model B to counter model A. Then Model c gets created to mitigate/counter model B. Model D gets created to help model B. Rinse and repeat for every mechanic.

[Ludvig]

The armour vs armour-ignore arms race is solid proof to me that you can't just counter the counters.

Forcing everyone to play the same model seems like a poor sollution to me, I play in theme and generally stay away from mercs. You would also need to make said counter model so op that it was good even if the opponent didn't bring the master it was supposed to counter and then you have created a new boring autotake. If the model is bad in another matchup it's not worth the risk.

I think what Adran meant was don't derail your own thread by responding to out of line comments in the same way, report them to the mods and only reply to constructive comments (or the constructive parts of comments) if you have any ambition of keeping the thread on topic. It gets out of hand quickly.

[whodares]

10 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

I would really like to clarify that, i'm not a fan for nerfs for every masters, not only for nico or sandeep. But if Nico's drawing mechanics are a problem, for me there is a problems also with other many masters.

I'd actually like to know which masters you are talking about here. It would be interesting to know which masters can possibly rival Nico's drawing mechanics or just his powerlevel in general and isn't named Sandeep.

[TeddyBear]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Because this just leads to bloat. Model A has insane card draw. Create model B to counter model A. Then Model c gets created to mitigate/counter model B. Model D gets created to help model B. Rinse and repeat for every mechanic. 

 

53 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The armour vs armour-ignore arms race is solid proof to me that you can't just counter the counters.

Forcing everyone to play the same model seems like a poor sollution to me, I play in theme and generally stay away from mercs. You would also need to make said counter model so op that it was good even if the opponent didn't bring the master it was supposed to counter and then you have created a new boring autotake. If the model is bad in another matchup it's not worth the risk.

I understand ,and partially i agree with your views, but maybe a model like Anna in many cases is no so different..

58 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I think what Adran meant was don't derail your own thread by responding to out of line comments in the same way, report them to the mods and only reply to constructive comments (or the constructive parts of comments) if you have any ambition of keeping the thread on topic. It gets out of hand quickly. 

You have completely right.. damn at my bad attitude, thanks for advice. 

[TeddyBear]

21 minutes ago, whodares said:

It would be interesting to know which masters can possibly rival Nico's drawing mechanics 

Almost all Neverborn, in particular Lynch and Dreamer then there are Somer, Leveticus, Asami.. Should i continue to list?

Edit. And i say this against my interest, since i have all these masters, even at cost to change cards of all.

[Ludvig]

Anna counters very few power combos that I'm aware of so I'm not sure how she fits here. She is a very decent model with a very situational ability. 

Taelor is more of a specific counter to summons, it's just that she doesn't accomplish her job well enough and is very expensive so is generally not conaidered worth taking even against the things she supposedly counters.

[whodares]

17 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Almost all Neverborn, in particular Lynch and Dreamer then there are Somer, Leveticus, Asami.. Should i continue to list?

Edit. And i say this against my interest, since i have all these masters, even at cost to change cards of all.

I fail to see how these masters can rival Nicodem's card draw.

Lynch can get back aces on friendly activations, but those are aces and they are not useful for all models. Nicodem can get any card while doing his core mechanic.

Dreamer can give Playtime, but that's a (1) action instead of an Ability, so it has a cost associated with it. Even then the model with Playtime has to deal damage to get a card. So that's 2 conditions already. Nicodem can get cards doing his core mechanic (summoning) AND when models die in his aura. This is a magnitude easier to pull off and generates a ton more cards. Dreamer can maybe get 2-3 cards per Turn from Playtime. Nicodem guarantees 3 cards without doing any effort at all.

Asami has a single card draw after her activation ends. I'm not even sure why she's mentioned in your list, unless you're just going through all Masters that have a card draw ...

 

NICODEM has a card draw when undead models are killed or sacrificed near him. This means he gets card draw on summons and card draw when you kill or sacrifice his summons. Just summoning 3 models every Turn nets you 3 cards. Even low cards are great when you're flipping through the deck as much as him as he'll have a much more stacked deck. Combining this with support models means you can rather easily get to a 10 card hand (very conservative of me) AFTER summoning.

 

 

In order to reach Nicodem's card draw, Asami should have a card draw on summoning and when her models get killed/sacrificed. Even then she doesn't have the support of Phillip etc to get the engine going.

 

Point is: none of the Masters are even close to the drawing power of Nicodem while doing a core mechanic. As mentioned in previous posts summoning is supposed to be a resource drain. Nicodem actively comes out stronger on all front from summoning.