Jump to content
thatlatinspeakingguy

Considerations for Summer Errata

Recommended Posts

In the perspective of summer errata, which models would you like to see get changed? And I am speaking here not of a soulstone change, but something more substantial. Here are my considerations:

 

Buffs

Jaakuna Ubume – contradictory design rendered her too weak in the current state of the game: you want to activate her early, but then she looses her Manipulative. I would like to see it exchanged for Vanished (an ability granted by Charm Warders). One point increase of her Defense would be welcomed too.

Draugr – interesting concept, but it turned out it does not work at all. I would let them keep their Ht changing ability (to eventually hide them somewhere) and current damage track, but the rest of the abilities, actions and triggers should no longer be related to their Ht. None of them is incredibly strong and now you actually pay 8ss for third part of them. I know we tend to have slightly overcosted/understated minions for good reason but that was a step too far.

 

Nerfs

Now, I would like to state that I don't want to see anything in our faction toned down unless other factions are going to received a deserved hit too. Moreover, I know that Nicodem is perceived as a problem, but I don't feel familiar enough with him to speak confidently about the possible solutions. So take what I say with a grain of salt. I don't think that Nicodem needs to be addressed in person, like other problematic masters, but it is rather the corpse generation engine that requires to be toned down. Nicodem's strength is proportional to the amount of corpses laying idly around, and faster he gets a lot of them the more likely he will snowball to the victory. Non-Ressurs complain mainly about Asura, but I feel that it has much to do with a general bias towards wave 5, which is perceived by many players as another step in a wrong direction. Personally, I don't think we could compete with other factions without her in wave 5 environment and I don't think that she has to be addressed in the first place to tone down Nicodem. I would say that the main offender, at least since My Little Helper has been released, is Corpse Bloat. It gives you two corpses out of nowhere, which translate into more cards and activations. So I propose to make it 1 ss upgrade, remove (0) action from it, increase the range of its second action, thus changing it into purely offensive upgrade. Two free corpses less on turn one seem to be a big deal in a perspective of a snowball effect of summoning and drawing cards. Or maybe I miss the mark completely?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Disagree with corpse bloat. That’s 3 and two upgrade slots. That’s a fair cost. 

I personally feel there are a few things that are pushing Nicodem over the top. His summoning pool Undertaker and kentauroi. 

At a minimum undertaker should be changed so it only works for drawing cards either on non peons, or only when killed and not sacrificed. Being able to draw cards for using zombies for summoning gives resources for an action that should be draining them.

Kentauroi are silly when Nicodem can summon them. I don’t have a problem with Molly summoning them, but Nicodem shouldn’t be able to. So either change Kentauroi to enforcers, change them so they aren’t undead or figure out a way to restrict nicodems summoning pool, which should have been done from the beginning. 

  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed on Kentauroi. Rather than make them Enforcers, I think it'd be better to give them the following Ability:

Unnatural Science: This model may only be hired or summoned by The Ones Left Behind.

This would be consistent with the goal of taking them off Nicodem except as hires, where they'd still be worthwhile, without giving them access to upgrades. Because Kentauroi with My Little Helper would be vicious.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like Carrión effigy to be usable and the good datsue ba is so fragile... I think she could use some tweak.

Also Id love to see tomes printed in yanlos DF and WP stat.

Sloth is rather bad too. Id like he could lend his 'just lay down' ability to other models.

Its been so long that I played Nico that I cant have a strong opinion in this matter. Before kentaurois I struggled with nico against agressive Alpha lists. DF 4 is such a big drawback that when I read all that Nico hate I remember getting efficiently mauled at the beggining of turn 2. I would say that the engine is far from unbeatable. I've faced It two Times with seamus and have won both. Maybe the opponent was lacking the necessary skill.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mojopin said:

Also Id love to see tomes printed in yanlos DF and WP stat.

Come on, lets be serious. It would virtually turn him into 8/8 master with incorporeal, ItW and 5 AP. He's strong enough right now, although I would like to see Fortify the Spirit baked into his card. Maybe in 3rd edition they will use smaller letters on stat cards ;)

Agree about Datsue Ba, at least a wound more would be welcome. As for Sloth, he is indeed horrible, like many C7, unfortunately.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Surely the model with the biggest target on their back is Asura Roten.  She instantly became a staple in almost every Resser list because she does so much that she basically feels like having a second master on the field. 

Summoning free zombies without a flip, forcing WP checks just for activating, giving all your weaker models a decent attack AND Hands From Below? 

I love using Asura, but daaaaayumn thats a lot of value for 8 stones. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to see, Seamus and Mcm slightly improved. Maybe Seamus, may not must randomize in shooting..? But maybe i'm saying nonsense.. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, stonecrowe said:

Surely the model with the biggest target on their back is Asura Roten.  She instantly became a staple in almost every Resser list because she does so much that she basically feels like having a second master on the field. 

Summoning free zombies without a flip, forcing WP checks just for activating, giving all your weaker models a decent attack AND Hands From Below? 

I love using Asura, but daaaaayumn thats a lot of value for 8 stones. 

I don't find her to be a problem in my non-Nico games, and with Nico it'd probably be better to nerf the card draw engine (Sebestian, Philip and the Nanny).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's my ideas for this errata

Buffs:

Bete Noir: She seriously needs some love. Her main issue is being super dependent on what the enemy takes. I'd remove the living/undead caveats on her actions and abilities so if you go up against Collodi, Tara, Dreamer, or anything else that doesn't use living models , she's not severely hampered from the start. I'd also give her an ability like Cloaked in the Void: This model cannot be dealt damage while buried. As another issue with Bete is that Void Wretches, Aionus, Death Marshal Recruiters, and Lady J can all just insta-kill her if they happen to be taken.

Draugr: This model seems very confused. It's a weird one and it's not working out how it is now. I'm suggesting a pretty significant overhaul. Change Mutable Form to: After succesfully resolving an action, this model may choose to change its Ht stat to 1, 2, or 3 until the end of the game. Change Bulk: While this model is Ht 3, it has Hard to Wound +1 and -1 Df. While this model is Ht 1, it has Fragile +1 and +1 Df. Give it Instinctual. Basically, instead of picking 1/3 of your abilities to benefit from each turn, you can cycle through them so long as you keep succeeding. There's definitely 8ss worth of abilities on that card but you're locked out of most of them each turn.

Cuddles:

Undertaker: Only allow it to activate when undead are killed, not sacrificed. It's silly that Nico can gain resources from doing something he already wants to do.

Kentauroi: Change Zombie Steed to once per turn. Make it unsummonable somehow. Either through making it an enforcer, or giving it an ability that says it can't be summoned.

Asura: Change zombie summoning to a (0) C6c, TN 9cc. Summon a mindless zombie in base contact with a Quarantine Marker. This model does not need LoS to the summoned model. This specifically hurts Nico as he's gonna want that crow or ss for his own summoning, but still usable as it can sometimes be necesary. Also allows QZ markers to stick around which I think are a really cool aspect of her design. Make Residents of Rottenburg an 8" ability so she's in at least a little danger. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/21/2018 at 12:00 AM, catbat07 said:

I don't find her to be a problem in my non-Nico games, and with Nico it'd probably be better to nerf the card draw engine (Sebestian, Philip and the Nanny).

She is also pretty amazing in a Reva Crew and allows you to not be required to take Guises of Death in order to be able to threaten the enemy half in Turn 1. In addition, Reva loves enemies with less Df and Wk so they can't escape all those Corpses thrown at them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's worth noting that the christmas errata is for the changes to make stuff fun again and summer is for stuff that is breaking the game apart. I would assume we will mostly see models taken down a peg this summer and not minor buffs.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

It's worth noting that the christmas errata is for the changes to make stuff fun again and summer is for stuff that is breaking the game apart. I would assume we will mostly see models taken down a peg this summer and not minor buffs.

Sad but accurate :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Sad but accurate :D 

That what my wife calls me too! Except for the accurate part. :D

  • Haha 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ludvig said:

It's worth noting that the christmas errata is for the changes to make stuff fun again and summer is for stuff that is breaking the game apart. I would assume we will mostly see models taken down a peg this summer and not minor buffs.

Dammit, you're right. I don't care about Nico - if he has to be sacrificed, be it so. But I don't agree with a sentiment frequently expressed here and there that everything playable we get in Wave 5 should be nerfed, because Nico can make a good use of it. Asura makes almost every Ressurectionist master better. She's our Francisco.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

Dammit, you're right. I don't care about Nico - if he has to be sacrificed, be it so. But I don't agree with a sentiment frequently expressed here and there that everything playable we get in Wave 5 should be nerfed, because Nico can make a good use of it. Asura makes almost every Ressurectionist master better. She's our Francisco.

If they hit Nico (which I think is super duper likely) then maybe the rest of the stuff will be fine? As you say, many factions have something above the curve and summer erratas usually don't go in with broad strokes. Even the last winter one left waves 4 and 5 almost completely untouched. Hit Nico, let the players shake out the kinks for a few months and see where that leaves Asura before potentially adressing any remaining issues this winter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course if Leveticus is an example a hit on Nico will relegate him from top tier to bottom third, about level with Seamus.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remove sacrificed from "I can use that!" And nico will be fine.

Asura honestly doesn't need a nerf. She's not stronger than jury, nekima, yu or yamaziko. She's really really good, but she's not broken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/25/2018 at 2:35 PM, Freman said:

Of course if Leveticus is an example a hit on Nico will relegate him from top tier to bottom third, about level with Seamus.

Levi relied largely on damage output to function, which they hit. Nico doesn't rely on his card draw entirely, so a hit to it wouldn't be as bad, since he's less specialized.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to see the Valedictorian's min damaged upped to 3 to make her more useful as a big beater. And Jaakuna given a buff, such a beautiful model to not see much play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two issues with that:

The Valedictorian is already a better hire for Sandeep than for ressers, upping her dmg to 3 would be great in ressers but probably op with Sandeep as he currently is.

Second, but more importantly, the summer errata is the emergency errata as stated by Wyrd’s policy, which certainly could change. That being the case I doubt very highly ANYTHING will get a buff, since underpowered models don’t break the game, they just don’t get played.

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1
  • Respectfully Disagree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would argue that useless models are very bad for Malifaux as a product line and is thus deserving of an "emergency" errata. Buying models that end up being useless feels awful for the customer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

I would argue that useless models are very bad for Malifaux as a product line and is thus deserving of an "emergency" errata. Buying models that end up being useless feels awful for the customer.

 I don't think any model is so bad that it isn't playable. (I'm fairly sure others disagree, but that's probably on what  you mean by is and isn't playable) Whilst some models may be a bad choice, you probably need to be playing at a high level to make them a bad choice that costs you the game, in which case you probably know before you buy. Waiting another 6 months for a below par model that is currently seeing play being boosted is not that unlikely. 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
  • Respectfully Disagree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

I would argue that useless models are very bad for Malifaux as a product line and is thus deserving of an "emergency" errata. Buying models that end up being useless feels awful for the customer.

Useless models don't exist. Putting a great looking sculpt on the table and enjoying a game with it will always be nice as will the joy of painting it. Super competitive only matters for tournament players, my club play all sorts of "unplayable" models and enjoy our games. Rules are always in flux and a company could go kaputt in two weeks. What you are paying for is the sculpt, if you only care for rules you could basically make bases and tape the names of the models to them.

 

Edit: The last part might be a bit of a hyperbole but honestly, not that much. Me and a few mates had a lot of fun playing warhammer with just paper units to see if we liked the new ruleset a few years back.

  • Agree 1
  • Respectfully Disagree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/26/2018 at 2:47 PM, Angelshard said:

Remove sacrificed from "I can use that!" And nico will be fine.

Asura honestly doesn't need a nerf. She's not stronger than jury, nekima, yu or yamaziko. She's really really good, but she's not broken.

I can see the merit with this but I don't actually use Sebastian with my Nico list and it is currently unbeaten in the latest design. I always felt like doing that just took it a step too far with the poison for 3 damage and getting 2 cards + 1 stone per zombie. 

Definitely something needs to be fixed and while I think that is definitely one of them, I don't think thats the only change which needs to happen. Undertaker removing sacrificed or peon would go a long way to reducing the card cycling. I'm sure there are other ways but those two are the main fixes I can think of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rules are as much if not more so a part of the product than the sculpt. The official tourney rules require you use the models or a close approximation of them made with mostly wyrd products, so its clear Wyrd doesn't want us to play with nothing but proxies. If i thought Wyrd was going to go bankrupt in two weeks or end product support for malifaux i would stop all my purchases immediately as the game would be dead, its somewhat of a gamble as unexpected things can happen but i don't think its likely Wyrd will disappear soon.

Whilst there are only a few truly useless models and quite a few of them saw changes in the recent errata, i was discussing more the principle behind balance changes than specific examples. I don't think the game is flooded with useless models, but i do think being "underpowered" is very much an emergency on par with being "overpowered" in terms of being disruptive to customers enjoying the product. Indeed the fact customers prefer certain sculpts over others is part of why those sculpts should be as viable as possible, to not punish them for their preferences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×