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KingCrow

Ways to inter-mix factions

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I've been thinking lately that there are quite a few models that have (or should have) certain characteristics that match those of Masters and Henchman in different factions.  If there is ever a 2.5 or 3rd edition, I think it'd be interesting to see some sort of rule added that allowed Masters (or Henchman led games) to hire models with their defining Characteristic from any faction with zero additional costs.  Or maybe +1 Soulstone and Mercs saw an increase to +2 Soulstones.  I personally favor the first idea of hiring at no additional cost.

This would let Colette hire Showgirls, Parker hire Bandits, etc.  To have this idea really make an impact, Wyrd would need to add Characteristics to many models. 

There would definitely have to be a limit to the number hired though.  I doubt we could make entire crews with a Master from another faction with this idea but just in case, need those limits. 

So, what are people's thoughts? What are some characteristics people would like to see added to models for certain masters? 

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There’s already a mechanic for this - Infiltration. Hire up to 4 models with keyword X.

They just need to use the mechanic more.

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27 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

There’s already a mechanic for this - Infiltration. Hire up to 4 models with keyword X.

They just need to use the mechanic more.

Ope! I had totally forgot that ability existed. Lol. Although isn't it mostly on the Masters that are dual faction? I personally would like to see it expanded for most, if not all, Masters.

I think it's a hugely untapped potential for the game.  The crew combinations would glbe staggering and amazing! Not to mention the extra models that Wyrd would probably be able to sell because of this ability. LOL

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44 minutes ago, KingCrow said:

There would definitely have to be a limit to the number hired though.  I doubt we could make entire crews with a Master from another faction with this idea but just in case, need those limits. 

McMourning, Marcus, and Hoffman (M&SU woo!) would be very nearly there already...and I suppose Leveticus if you either count Horseman or pretend that undead and construct are keywords instead of characteristics. I definitely like it more as a base card idea for the small limited keyword infiltrations but an upgrade slot (WITH additional action/ability so it isn’t a wasted slot after hiring—I’m still going to terracotta swap it out if possible, but, say, Surprisingly Loyal for Lucius actually HAS a use during the game) for the broader categories.

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1 hour ago, KingCrow said:

Ope! I had totally forgot that ability existed. Lol. Although isn't it mostly on the Masters that are dual faction? I personally would like to see it expanded for most, if not all, Masters.

I think it's a hugely untapped potential for the game.  The crew combinations would glbe staggering and amazing! Not to mention the extra models that Wyrd would probably be able to sell because of this ability. LOL

It was used on Pandoras new Limited upgrade, Woe is Me. Lets her summon Woe out of faction. Right now that's just Field Reporters, but they're pretty great with her using that upgrade, easily spreading conditions to summon off. Also Seamus new upgrade Aka Sebastian Baker got an expanded Infiltration called My Lovelies that lets him hire 4 non-Totem, Living showgirls and makes them Undead.

Honestly, if something makes it to an M3E I hope Mercenary availability is toned down a lot, dual faction goes the way of the Dodo and Infiltration is used to get out of faction models. But that's mostly because I really like in-theme lists.

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I agree with @-Loki- , mainly because I'm tired of seeing models take a hit because some out of faction master is too strong with them. Sure I'd be sad that some of my models might not work anymore, but rather that than feeling salty because a model got a nerf even though it was fine when in-faction.

Also I feel that the model bloat is getting out of hand and toning down the available comboes is a way to counter that.

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1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

I agree with @-Loki- , mainly because I'm tired of seeing models take a hit because some out of faction master is too strong with them. Sure I'd be sad that some of my models might not work anymore, but rather that than feeling salty because a model got a nerf even though it was fine when in-faction.

Also I feel that the model bloat is getting out of hand and toning down the available comboes is a way to counter that.

Wouldn't tjis be exactly as likely with infiltration rules? Several of those erratas were due to infiltrstion rules on certain masters? After this period of agressive errata (which I was thrilled to see at first) I'm sort of leaning back towards how it used to be with very minimal fixes unless something was rat engine with Viks lvl broken.

I don't mind dual faction masters, it's very fun to have extremely different playstyles opened up, especially if they are like McMourning and have one unique upgrade depending on faction that really alters their playstyle. McMourning is dual and has never caused nerfs, Nellie is solo guild with an infiltrstion rule and has very likely caused nerfs in other factions. Lucius is another favourite of mine who I thinks has a strong theme for both his factions. I only wish he had also gotten upgrades that altered his base style depending on faction.

Marcus and Levi have so broad infiltration rules that they have likely caused weird design choices like alligators and certain pigs not being beasts while certain pigs and most swampfiends are pigs. I find it super confusing what is deemed sentient/beast.

What I really like is McCabe. His entire box has both faction tags so you can pick him up with abother guild master or another TT master and atill use his box. No one in their right mind would recommend Lucius to broaden a nvb players model pool or McMourning as a second guild master.

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@Ludvig I guess what I'm wanting is a more limited infiltration that only lets you bring over a few specific models. As it is now I feel a lot of the flavour I factions is being washed out. There are very few true factionwide weaknesses left at this point. Also I think the amount of combos you have to playtest is negatively affecting balance on some of the never models. Plus some factions are suffering from this, tt are getting a hit because they have so many dual masters that can bring in so many models. Gremlins and outcast got a few undeserved hits due to the merc rule and so on.

I'm not saying it's all doom and gloom, I'll still argue that the game is quite well balanced and the power curve from weakest to strongest master is quite tight. But I think the factions themes are suffering and getting a little washed out.

Also, after the fluff in book 5, I have a feeling that both dual masters and mercs are gonna be a lot scarcer, outcast are going to form their own faction town and misaki got most of her dual masters to swear allegiance to her.

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I can somewhat agree about the lost flavour but at the same time that flavour wasn't always very appreciated. In m1e all gremlins had shitty wp, as a consequence they pretty much auto-lost in some matchups. I think the reason more and more flavour is lost is that players keep requesting models to plug the factions weaknesses.

Playing both with and against Marcus on numerous occasions I've never felt that his hiring really break anything. Maaters with too strong abilities make horrible combos. If anything Marcus alphaing a master is thr npe, not him hiring a list full of pigs or swamp fiends. Nellie is about equally disgusting without mercs because of what she does in the form of ap efficience, activation efficiency and debt to the guild.

I've tried to play flavourful with guard models only and it sucks balls because that themed lacks so many functions. Running into a full incorp list or a high defence list or an armoured list when you only have crappy attack stats, no ability to ignore anything and not a single ca action isn't super fun.

In wave 1 of m2e guild had great flavour, high damage and no model that could even remotely do interact schemes because they were slow, had no extra general ap or fancy interact stuff. As a consequence they were almost unplayable in certain pools. If themes go back to being tight I think models will need to be reworked to actually offer most functions in each theme. Then we would have thematic crews but with similar abilities.

There's a reason Merris was all over gremlins in earlier years because hoarding a pile of markers would easily give you full scheme vp. If she was available to only half the gremlin masters the others would also be crying for a 6ss model to automatically score 3 vp each game because otherwise games would be really onesided.

As forerrata: Matching masters through balance of terror might be equally viable as trying to tone down everything. The earlier strong masters that have been nerfed could have been left alone because they certainly would have been matched by wave 4 masters and recent Nico. Instead errata's could have focused on lifting the bottom of the pack until they felt playable. The recent sweeping errata shook things up but didn't feel appropriately thought through as evident by people giving up on gremlins entirely because they feel there is no point to playing them anymore. If Nellie hiring mercs was the problem that could have been targeted instead or they could have left her like that and boosted a couple of struggling masters.

 

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I'm kinda torn on this. IF M3e is nearby, and with it factions splitting up, then I'm all for widespread limited infiltration to make sure commonly used in-theme models can be used by most masters. If not, I don't think the game need wider hiring pools. In fact I think generally huge hiring pools are the main challenge for keeping the game going at the moment. I think the main rule should be more restrictive model pools, a small handful of universal mercs (could easily be fewer; main role should be to fill gaps), limited infiltration (could very well be in dual-faction masters), and masters like Leveticus and Nellie should be the exeption to the rule. One thing I quite enjoy with Leveticus right now (post nerf) is that his combo potential is where most of his power lies. Everyone getting wider pools would steal his thunder. Similarly I'm fine with Nellie getting easier access to Mercs and Marcus to beasts. Worse if everyone get it...

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