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Current state of the game - Ressers too strong? - Rant

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@tmod¬†I think it's definitely an "automatic out activation" let us take as an example Reva, she's not a summoner: discard a card, for one candle + asura + emissary, are always 3 more models for turn, if this isn't automatic out activation, i don't know what is..ūüėú

 

 

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3 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

@tmod¬†I think it's definitely an "automatic out activation" let us take as an example Reva, she's not a summoner: discard a card, for one candle + asura + emissary, are always 3 more models for turn, if this isn't automatic out activation, i don't know what is..ūüėú

 

 

You're taking 18ss for 2 models to do this, so as long as the opponents has cheap stuff/free stuff/summoning itself, it's far from automatic, but it helps.

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6 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

How so? If you get two extra models a turn and you easily out-activating most of the other crews (as long a they are not led by summoners). Seems like automatic process to meūüėĀ

Well 1 way is that the other crew could kill your easy activations before you get to use them. Sure, they are then using AP, but can probably easily deny the activation control if the only activation control you have is 2 zombies a turn. 

It makes it much easier to out activate, but its far from automatic. 

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If you force your opponent to kill this freely summon models and deny him what he should do instead then you win the game. Or he could try to ignore them, be out-activated and risk being countered by your still free to activate models while he finishes his all activations - you have pretty good chance to win this game thanks to that too.

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57 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

How so? If you get two extra models a turn and you easily out-activating most of the other crews (as long a they are not led by summoners). Seems like automatic process to meūüėĀ

Hamlin disagrees... I agree two models a turn will contribute a lot, but it's not automatic (easy to kill/probably get used up for summons, so probably won't stack up, etc). Saying something is automatic is not helpful is my point. No, it's not auto outsctivate, Nico is not the auto win button we sometimes get the impression he is, neither is Sandeep, Hamelin, Zipp, etc.

Are Kentauroi/Asura probably a little too strong with Nico? Possibly, I personally believe so, but it's so much better to figure out what we can agree on and push for constructive feedback to the errata team than it is to engage in a  shouting match about who is most unbeatable. For the record I completely agree it's tough to out-activate a crew with two free activations a turn, though I always had the impression Nicodem was likely to out activate with Mwahahahaha anyway...

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37 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

If you force your opponent to kill this freely summon models and deny him what he should do instead then you win the game. Or he could try to ignore them, be out-activated and risk being countered by your still free to activate models while he finishes his all activations - you have pretty good chance to win this game thanks to that too.

Or use them as blasting off points as Sonnia (or any Blaster), or summon new models from them as Levi/McMorning/Hammlim/PAndora, or use them to score points from ply, or use them to help maintan the shed blood condition. Sure, they are all corner cases but they do demonstrate that its not a case of 2 extra models per turn = out activation = win. 

2 "free" models is good, but it doesn't win the game by itself. 

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13 minutes ago, Adran said:

Or use them as blasting off points as Sonnia (or any Blaster), or summon new models from them as Levi/McMorning/Hammlim/PAndora, or use them to score points from ply, or use them to help maintan the shed blood condition. Sure, they are all corner cases but they do demonstrate that its not a case of 2 extra models per turn = out activation = win. 

2 "free" models is good, but it doesn't win the game by itself. 

Never said it is auto-win. It helps a lot though. Really helps. That's my point and helping faction full of summoners getting extra models for free is not helping to be honest.

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54 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

If you force your opponent to kill this freely summon models and deny him what he should do instead then you win the game. Or he could try to ignore them, be out-activated and risk being countered by your still free to activate models while he finishes his all activations - you have pretty good chance to win this game thanks to that too.

That's the entire point of why I think it's too strong. Kill them and "waste" AP and activations on them or don't kill them and give your opponent 2 free models which are pretty strong thanks to Asura's Ability. If you both have equal activation count and you have to spend 2 activations just to kill free summons, you have activation control. After all, models that are stuck killing the free stuff can't actually do whatever you brought them for.

 

11 minutes ago, Adran said:

Or use them as blasting off points as Sonnia (or any Blaster), or summon new models from them as Levi/McMorning/Hammlim/PAndora, or use them to score points from ply, or use them to help maintan the shed blood condition. Sure, they are all corner cases but they do demonstrate that its not a case of 2 extra models per turn = out activation = win. 

2 "free" models is good, but it doesn't win the game by itself. 

Does Ply and Shed Blood work on Peons? Because Mindless Zombies are Peons after all. Last time I checked most schemes and strats can't score off of peons, so that point is a corner-corner case so to say.

 

Any master could use them to blast off, but they have to be within a certain range of other models for that to work. Misaki now has 8" range and Sonnia has 3 blast markers. Asura can place her marker 12" out, which means they can block quite a lot of range with them.

 

I agree with you 2 free models don't win the game by themselves, but they sure as hell make it easier. Especially when these free models can use Asura's support kit to be a credible threat to almost every single model in your crew. Hamelin's entire gimmick is the rat engine and that just serves to pad his activation count and get a model from it. A lot of people consider Hamelin to be strong because of this. While Asura herself doesn't quite work like that, she tries to go for thesame end effect: outactivation of the opponent. I'd say she's too good at that. At least Hamelin stil has to hit a decent amount of (own) targets to get his engine going. Asura gets the Zombie for free.

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8 minutes ago, whodares said:

Does Ply and Shed Blood work on Peons? Because Mindless Zombies are Peons after all. Last time I checked most schemes and strats can't score off of peons, so that point is a corner-corner case so to say.

From Gaining Grounds 2018

On any Turn after the first, non-Peon models may take a (1) Interact Action targeting an enemy model they are engaged with that does not have the Gathered Intel Condition to gain the following Condition until the end  of the game:

So you can be engaged with a peon to gain the gather intel condition. 

 

And whilst you can't gain the shed blood condition from a peon the condition reads

Shed Blood: At the end of this model's Activation, remove this condition if no enemy models have line of sight to this model.

So LOS to a zombie is enough to maintain the condition. 

So 2 possible downsides to summoning free zombies. I agree that most of the time, 2 "free" models is going to be a good thing, but its not always the case. You can also kill them to score punish the weak, so thats 3 of the 4 suit combinations (so about 75% of the games) that they may have a down side in the current GG (Or at least a way that you can possibly gain from the enemies "free" models) . Also there is the scheme hold up their forces. 

This doesn't in anyway say that its bad to have the chance to summon, or comment in anyway about the power of Ressers as a whole, and those 3 models in particular. 

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I think having extra rewards (not necessarily a price attached) can help a lot.

This way competitive players (nothing wrong with that) can go for the optimized lists (and I believe every faction can field some very competitive lists.

Including a price like the iron scorpion for playing 5 different masters in 5 games is great.

A price for best painted.

Best sportsmanship.

Again, maybe something for running 80 or 90% keyword crews, etc.

 

I feel that as long as there's something for everyone to enjoy, a couple of very strong lists shouldn't really be an issue. 

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20 minutes ago, Adran said:

From Gaining Grounds 2018

On any Turn after the first, non-Peon models may take a (1) Interact Action targeting an enemy model they are engaged with that does not have the Gathered Intel Condition to gain the following Condition until the end  of the game:

So you can be engaged with a peon to gain the gather intel condition.

You see to not account for the fact that the Resser player can just summon them in the back. If I see you using those tactics even once, you won't be able to get a second VP like that. You'll also have to be able to keep said model alive, which can prove to be rather hard when the opponent can outactivate you. Any opponent worth his salt will target the scoring model. The Zombie makes it easier to take you down as he can either do damage to you or debuff you thanks to Asura.

 

23 minutes ago, Adran said:

From Gaining Grounds 2018

And whilst you can't gain the shed blood condition from a peon the condition reads

Shed Blood: At the end of this model's Activation, remove this condition if no enemy models have line of sight to this model.

So LOS to a zombie is enough to maintain the condition. 

Let's face it, staying in LoS of an enemy model is already easy to do. Saying this is a downside means this is a downside for any model. Better not take any models then, so you also can't score VP from this?

 

25 minutes ago, Adran said:

So 2 possible downsides to summoning free zombies. I agree that most of the time, 2 "free" models is going to be a good thing, but its not always the case. You can also kill them to score punish the weak, so thats 3 of the 4 suit combinations (so about 75% of the games) that they may have a down side in the current GG (Or at least a way that you can possibly gain from the enemies "free" models) . Also there is the scheme hold up their forces. 

This doesn't in anyway say that its bad to have the chance to summon, or comment in anyway about the power of Ressers as a whole, and those 3 models in particular. 

So in about 75% of the games, they might give away VP. Then you have to look at what you are gaining from giving away those VP. You are gaining almost full control of the game. I don't mind giving you 3VP if I can pretty much guarantee getting 10 myself. If I can get that level of control in any other faction, it would be nerfbatted instantly in the next errata.

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2 minutes ago, whodares said:

You see to not account for the fact that the Resser player can just summon them in the back. If I see you using those tactics even once, you won't be able to get a second VP like that. You'll also have to be able to keep said model alive, which can prove to be rather hard when the opponent can outactivate you. Any opponent worth his salt will target the scoring model. The Zombie makes it easier to take you down as he can either do damage to you or debuff you thanks to Asura.

 

Let's face it, staying in LoS of an enemy model is already easy to do. Saying this is a downside means this is a downside for any model. Better not take any models then, so you also can't score VP from this?

 

So in about 75% of the games, they might give away VP. Then you have to look at what you are gaining from giving away those VP. You are gaining almost full control of the game. I don't mind giving you 3VP if I can pretty much guarantee getting 10 myself. If I can get that level of control in any other faction, it would be nerfbatted instantly in the next errata.

I agree that you are right, and these aren't too likely to come up to often, but they could. And the advantage of remaining in LOS of a Zombie was more that if you're only seen by a Zombie you can't as easily be killed. The fewer model that can see you, and the weaker they are, the less likely they are going to be able to kill the model with the condition. 

Summoning 2 zombies a turn does not automatically give you activation control or VP. What it does is help control, both in activation order and diluting enemy Ap, which help you control the game.  I would say Ressers aren't the only faction that does this, but they are the faction that does it the most. 

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, whodares said:

That's the entire point of why I think it's too strong. Kill them and "waste" AP and activations on them or don't kill them and give your opponent 2 free models which are pretty strong thanks to Asura's Ability. If you both have equal activation count and you have to spend 2 activations just to kill free summons, you have activation control. After all, models that are stuck killing the free stuff can't actually do whatever you brought them for.

Activation control is normally taken to mean having enough activations to ensure that all your important activations are taken after all your opponent's models have already gone, thus ensuring she doesn't get a chance to respond to your big play at all. This is a potentially game-breaking tactic, as the alternating activations is a core mechanic of the game. Effects that disrupts core mechanics of the game are potentially very strong, just like Necropotence in MTG in the 90s. Unlimited chain activations did the same thing in M 1,5.

Examples of this tactic would be rat engine + Killjoy bomb (Hamelin, previously Viks/Leveticus as well), and even the dual Warpig list that was discussed a little while back. I do agree Asura helps a lot in achieving activation control, and makes it much more likely, potentially making her too strong. But most crews seem to run at about 7-9 activations. Getting three extra puts you at 10-13. That's more than most, but a lot less than crewd designed to outactivate; 15+ are not uncommon, and with rat engine/summoning several crews can get significantly more. Saying it's guaranteed ignores all crews designed to take advantage of out-activation.

I don't think hyperbole like this serves any useful purpose. If Wyrd is to rebalance they cannot just act on "what is strongest". Balance will never be perfect, so one will always have to be on top. Neither can they react to "OMG, this is way OP, should never have been in the game". If they are to maintain game balance they need to understand exactly WHY a model or game effect is very strong, and exactly HOW strong, how much ahead of the curve it is. Saying Asura is automatic guaranteed activation control is demonstrably false, and does little to shed light on exactly WHY she's too strong and HOW much stronger she is than she should be (granted, a lot of useful points have also been raised in this thread! I'm merely criticising the auto activation control statement...). Hence I think that particular statement contributes more to background noise than to the important signal... Hence my posts.

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

I agree that you are right, and these aren't too likely to come up to often, but they could. And the advantage of remaining in LOS of a Zombie was more that if you're only seen by a Zombie you can't as easily be killed. The fewer model that can see you, and the weaker they are, the less likely they are going to be able to kill the model with the condition. 

Summoning 2 zombies a turn does not automatically give you activation control or VP. What it does is help control, both in activation order and diluting enemy Ap, which help you control the game.  I would say Ressers aren't the only faction that does this, but they are the faction that does it the most. 

They do it the most and they have the easiest way of getting it. There is nothing wrong with it being easier for them, but right now it's just too easy. Previously Outcasts were broken because everyone could run the rat engine. They fixed that rather fast.

 

1 hour ago, tmod said:

Activation control is normally taken to mean having enough activations to ensure that all your important activations are taken after all your opponent's models have already gone, thus ensuring she doesn't get a chance to respond to your big play at all. This is a potentially game-breaking tactic, as the alternating activations is a core mechanic of the game. Effects that disrupts core mechanics of the game are potentially very strong, just like Necropotence in MTG in the 90s. Unlimited chain activations did the same thing in M 1,5.

Examples of this tactic would be rat engine + Killjoy bomb (Hamelin, previously Viks/Leveticus as well), and even the dual Warpig list that was discussed a little while back. I do agree Asura helps a lot in achieving activation control, and makes it much more likely, potentially making her too strong. But most crews seem to run at about 7-9 activations. Getting three extra puts you at 10-13. That's more than most, but a lot less than crewd designed to outactivate; 15+ are not uncommon, and with rat engine/summoning several crews can get significantly more. Saying it's guaranteed ignores all crews designed to take advantage of out-activation.

I don't think hyperbole like this serves any useful purpose. If Wyrd is to rebalance they cannot just act on "what is strongest". Balance will never be perfect, so one will always have to be on top. Neither can they react to "OMG, this is way OP, should never have been in the game". If they are to maintain game balance they need to understand exactly WHY a model or game effect is very strong, and exactly HOW strong, how much ahead of the curve it is. Saying Asura is automatic guaranteed activation control is demonstrably false, and does little to shed light on exactly WHY she's too strong and HOW much stronger she is than she should be (granted, a lot of useful points have also been raised in this thread! I'm merely criticising the auto activation control statement...). Hence I think that particular statement contributes more to background noise than to the important signal... Hence my posts.

We both agree that activation control can be game-breaking. As you say, the game is designed around alternating activations. The last iteration of GG pushed away from having many small models to having a more elite crew. Because of this, they HAD to make a change to summons and how they are able to score. The best example of this would be Ours.

You mention Hamelin, Viks and Leveticus and then also mention that only Hamelin can do it now due to the changes to the rat engine. You then mention crews running 7-9 activations and +3 = 10-13 which is still not enough to outactivate crews like Hamelin rat engine. What you don't take into account is the rest of the summoning that Ressers already bring. You can quite easily get to 20 activations on your second Turn with Ressers and outactivate other crews such as Hamelin. Then add the fact that their summons aren't weaklings and you get double stones worth of models by the end of Turn 2 while not really sacrificing anything else.

 

I agree with you that perfect balance is impossible to achieve. However I would say Asura is too strong regardless of faction. Put her in any faction and use let her summon chaff from that faction which can then use her actions. Suddenly you have a must-have model for that faction as well. After all, being able to give a stacking Df and mobility debuff to ignorable models suddenly raises their priority by quite a large margin. She can do it from a bit over 12" away and therefore does not risk any sort of retaliation. Asura grants massive power just by "existing" and she does it way too safe and way too easy. On top of that she makes obtaining activation control trivial. That's why I don't think I went into hyperbole territory as she's just too overtuned on all fronts right now.

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16 minutes ago, whodares said:

They do it the most and they have the easiest way of getting it. There is nothing wrong with it being easier for them, but right now it's just too easy. Previously Outcasts were broken because everyone could run the rat engine. They fixed that rather fast.

 

We both agree that activation control can be game-breaking. As you say, the game is designed around alternating activations. The last iteration of GG pushed away from having many small models to having a more elite crew. Because of this, they HAD to make a change to summons and how they are able to score. The best example of this would be Ours.

You mention Hamelin, Viks and Leveticus and then also mention that only Hamelin can do it now due to the changes to the rat engine. You then mention crews running 7-9 activations and +3 = 10-13 which is still not enough to outactivate crews like Hamelin rat engine. What you don't take into account is the rest of the summoning that Ressers already bring. You can quite easily get to 20 activations on your second Turn with Ressers and outactivate other crews such as Hamelin. Then add the fact that their summons aren't weaklings and you get double stones worth of models by the end of Turn 2 while not really sacrificing anything else.

 

I agree with you that perfect balance is impossible to achieve. However I would say Asura is too strong regardless of faction. Put her in any faction and use let her summon chaff from that faction which can then use her actions. Suddenly you have a must-have model for that faction as well. After all, being able to give a stacking Df and mobility debuff to ignorable models suddenly raises their priority by quite a large margin. She can do it from a bit over 12" away and therefore does not risk any sort of retaliation. Asura grants massive power just by "existing" and she does it way too safe and way too easy. On top of that she makes obtaining activation control trivial. That's why I don't think I went into hyperbole territory as she's just too overtuned on all fronts right now.

I agree with most of what you're stating here, but I'll just add that if the resser player "easily get to 20 activations" then two-three more or less will not make much difference in most cases. If Asura's worst issue had been to help ressers get above 20 activations, up from 17-18, then it wouldn't be much of a problem. It also becomes hard to know who will end up outactivating, because it's hard to see who will kill what, who will get sacrificed, etc. Asura will probably help most ressers out-activate most non-dedicated out-activating, non-summoner crews out there most of the time...

I still maintain that others can get even more activations, but I also agree that it doesn't come up very often. I think Asura is above the curve more because she can do what she does just by existing (as you also say), something which is (IMHO) accurate and not hyperbolic, rather than because she guarantees outactivation (which I still think is hyperbolic).

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I think my main issue with this thread is the declaration that ressers are op. Especially when it's focused around three models.

Guild got the jury, monster hunters and guild investigators, which are at least as good as those three. And they were just at the too of my head, wave five introduced a lot of strong models.

Lynch got an upgrade that breaks one of the fundamental rules of the game (loser cheats first), which is disgustingly good. 

Sure Asura is strong, but I wouldn't call her stronger than the Jury, Benny Woolcomb or Hinamatsu.

Kentauroi are good yes, but they're 8 stone minions and if you summon them instead of hiring them (which can only be done by 2 out of 8 masters) they're at low wounds and cost you a high card.

Lampads I haven't met yet, but my guess is that they're a bit too niche to be truly effective. Especially when there's so much condition removal now a days. 

 

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49 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

Kentauroi are good yes, but they're 8 stone minions and if you summon them instead of hiring them (which can only be done by 2 out of 8 masters) they're at low wounds and cost you a high card.

Lampads I haven't met yet, but my guess is that they're a bit too niche to be truly effective. Especially when there's so much condition removal now a days. 

I'm not saying that they either of them are OP  but I do think they both get much better in a Nico crew. 

With the Kentauroi, the high cards are almost irrelevant for Nico and if he burns a second corpse marker he can bring the Kentauroi in with 8 wounds remaining if he really wants to.

Nico being able get activation control and summon Kentauroi to deliver Lampads where they can be most useful makes it likely that the Lampad will be able to summon more.  It feels like if a hired Lampad can summon just one additional Lampad you probably get your 7SS out of it. If more than one Lampad gets summoned then it was a bargain.

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@whodares the idea that Asura would be hireable in any faction is interesting...and I’d consider it for sure even if she didn’t make the cut into the crews I play.

 

The traditional counters to mass activations (targeting multiple models per turn) cost too much to be taken at the high competitive tier*. Charm warders with their cheap passive aura to punish summoning will help with this. I remember they were mercenary in the beta. Now I know why.

 

*I have a less competitive meta. When mass activation crews show up, they run into a rarer crew like a Storm Misaki with added focus or Hoffman with emissary gunnery platform or several varieties of pulse damage crews, crews which wouldn’t survive a cutthroat meta, and mass activations get countered.

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2 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

@whodares

*I have a less competitive meta. When mass activation crews show up, they run into a rarer crew like a Storm Misaki with added focus or Hoffman with emissary gunnery platform or several varieties of pulse damage crews, crews which wouldn’t survive a cutthroat meta, and mass activations get countered.

Weren't pulses the way the Gremlins won UK masters (amongst other things)?  

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@WWHSD I don't disagree, I take exception to the statement that these models make ressers op as a faction. I agree that they are good, but they're not above the curve.

Yes kentauroi are strong as a nico summon (I think they're quite strong for Molly too). But they're just another tool, I haven't heard people stopped summoning punk zombies or necropunks yet.

As for Lampads, again I haven't met them, but I think they're probably harder to get a second model out of than people think, not saying they're bad, just that they take a bit of setup 

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1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

@WWHSD I don't disagree, I take exception to the statement that these models make ressers op as a faction. I agree that they are good, but they're not above the curve.

Yes kentauroi are strong as a nico summon (I think they're quite strong for Molly too). But they're just another tool, I haven't heard people stopped summoning punk zombies or necropunks yet.

As for Lampads, again I haven't met them, but I think they're probably harder to get a second model out of than people think, not saying they're bad, just that they take a bit of setup 

Well, ahead of the curve is hardly the same as op. Balance is never perfect, so some will always be better than the average. OP territory for me begins when a model is stricktly significantly better in most or all situations... Kentauroi are mong the little handful of Malifaux mini I don't own yet, so don't know where they fall specifically...

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2 hours ago, Angelshard said:

Yes kentauroi are strong as a nico summon (I think they're quite strong for Molly too). But they're just another tool, I haven't heard people stopped summoning punk zombies or necropunks yet.

Never look at a model itself but rather at how it is synergistic with other models. Ressers were always rather slow-ish and this was their flavour and weakness somehow. Now with Emissary which buffs their Wk and Kentauroi which works as delivery system this weakness is gone.

You mentioned people still summon Punk Zombie but see how it dramatically changed with Kentauroi. Previously Nico summoned Punk Zombie usually somewhere in the back and Punk Zombie range threat was quite limited. Now he can be delivered pretty far and make a mayhem. Sweet, no?

I don't think Ressers are OP just some models/master mechanics/upgrades are clearly not designed well. My opinion only.

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4 hours ago, daniello_s said:

You mentioned people still summon Punk Zombie but see how it dramatically changed with Kentauroi. Previously Nico summoned Punk Zombie usually somewhere in the back and Punk Zombie range threat was quite limited. Now he can be delivered pretty far and make a mayhem. Sweet, no?

When Nico summons a Kentauroi and a Punk Zombie it’s likely that the Punk Zombie is going to get to flurry (or at least charge) something on the opponents sode of the table turn 1.

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19 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Weren't pulses the way the Gremlins won UK masters (amongst other things)?  

Lucas caught out Jamie with a surprise Zip Pere Ravage bomb crew build.  I faced Lucas with the standard build Nico/Lampad build crew and beat it over the weekend at a 40 player 4 round event. The Zip build is very powerful but if you can weather the bomb what’s left is relatively easy to cope with.

Currently Nico has a significant advantage over most crews even the likes of Hamlin or Sandeep.  

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15 minutes ago, Tapdancer said:

Lucas caught out Jamie with a surprise Zip Pere Ravage bomb crew build.  I faced Lucas with the standard build Nico/Lampad build crew and beat it over the weekend at a 40 player 4 round event. The Zip build is very powerful but if you can weather the bomb what’s left is relatively easy to cope with.

Currently Nico has a significant advantage over most crews even the likes of Hamlin or Sandeep.  

My experience with pulse lists are very swingy in general, so that doesn't surprise me.

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